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Hekate

(100,133 posts)

76. Nonsense. What is your motivation in this continuing argument? Life begins at conception?

Wed Jan 15, 2014, 07:09 PM

Jan 2014

Any termination is too early? No termination ever? Any tiny heartbeat must be considered "viable"? Should women be checked for pregnancy every month?

When conception takes place, of course there is life happening: cells are dividing. But it's not a baby and won't be for a long, long time. Are you aware that up to 20% of known pregnancies are miscarried, but that the number is probably much higher because so many occur very early? If this is all God's Will, let me know; it sure does seem to be Mother Nature's way.

Where exactly are you going with this? You willfully choose to misunderstand, despite repeated explanations, what "dead" means. I've seen dead, from my aged mother, who was ready to go, to my 6 month old granddaughter who died of SIDS. Neither one of them deserved to be hooked up to a respirator for however long it took for the last cell to decay and for general rot to set in (which is what Jahi's doctors mean by "deteriorate&quot . I've seen dead. Have you?

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There's a brain-dead corpse whose family is being forced [View all] malaise Jan 2014 OP

Does insurance cover health care costs for dead people? peace13 Jan 2014 #1

The woman is dead. The fetus apparently isn't. LisaL Jan 2014 #4

They do not know if the fetus is any more alive than the woman. uppityperson Jan 2014 #13

If it isn't alive, then there is nobody to support on life support. LisaL Jan 2014 #17

And that is the problem. They didn't unplug anyone from mechanical support. uppityperson Jan 2014 #20

They don't know if the fetus is alive or not. jeff47 Jan 2014 #27

You never heard of women whose fetus died in utero? LisaL Jan 2014 #46

No, at the moment they do not know if the fetus is alive or not. jeff47 Jan 2014 #58

It's at 21 weeks gestation. LisaL Jan 2014 #66

Their mothers were not dead. They were not deprived of oxygen for an hour. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2014 #70

Micropreemies are likely to be severely damaged due to brain bleeds and the like Hekate Jan 2014 #72

21 weeks now...it was only 14 weeks when this travesty of human rights began.... Drew Richards Jan 2014 #92

Those few that survive are devastatingly disabled. ALWAYS. kestrel91316 Jan 2014 #98

Thanks Kestrel, but that particular poster has an agenda and is not listening. Hekate Jan 2014 #106

that poster wanted to keep Terri Schiavo on life support too. CreekDog Jan 2014 #164

Apparently, there are enlightenment Jan 2014 #144

But nobody wants this particular fetus to be removed at 21 weeks. LisaL Jan 2014 #153

Why do you continue saying fetus is alive? Proof of that? And is it ethical to go against what uppityperson Jan 2014 #154

There is no proof its dead. LisaL Jan 2014 #157

There is no proof it is alive. Is it ethical to keep mechanical support on someone against their and uppityperson Jan 2014 #158

This message was self-deleted by its author CreekDog Jan 2014 #162

Well, well. That is indeed relevant. Hekate Jan 2014 #170

LisaL, enlightenment Jan 2014 #159

Not ones who were deprived of oxygen for well over an hour at 14 weeks. pnwmom Jan 2014 #137

Nonsense. A fetal heartbeat can be detected long before 21 weeks. WillowTree Jan 2014 #103

Fetal heartbeats can be detected in fetuses that fail to develop a brain at all. jeff47 Jan 2014 #111

If it doesn't have a brain, then it's not going to live. LisaL Jan 2014 #112

Nope. Which is why you can't use a heartbeat to prove the fetus is alive. jeff47 Jan 2014 #116

Nothing to suggest this woman was thinking about abortion. LisaL Jan 2014 #120

Except she did discuss when to "pull the plug" with her husband. jeff47 Jan 2014 #129

the very, very long list of men's rights posts you've compiled makes it not surprising CreekDog Jan 2014 #165

"Tests are done daily on the fetus, and results show a normal heart beat." hedgehog Jan 2014 #62

With a fetus, a heartbeat doesn't necessarily mean it's alive. jeff47 Jan 2014 #63

Well it sure doesn't mean it's dead. LisaL Jan 2014 #68

Because we should demand families pay jeff47 Jan 2014 #69

Yes or no? Is it ethical to force her to stay on mechanical support even though she and her family uppityperson Jan 2014 #82

Tests? Tests? Again there are not tests at 14 weeks and still none at 21 weeks...IT was deprived Drew Richards Jan 2014 #95

You state that there is no possibility of the fetus becoming a healthy child, hedgehog Jan 2014 #104

That is a strawman no starter...the fetus was only 14 weeks when this started and the plug Drew Richards Jan 2014 #107

24 weeks isn't a magic number in TX. LisaL Jan 2014 #119

I just finished reading the 2013 Texas abortion law before posting...abortion in Texas is LEGAL up Drew Richards Jan 2014 #126

I am afraid you are not up to date on TX abortion law. LisaL Jan 2014 #127

I see you are correct the supremes decided not to recind in a 5 4 decision...but again what Drew Richards Jan 2014 #139

When the husband found the woman, she had already turned blue. Her own father pnwmom Jan 2014 #136

The father of the woman said the oxygen deprivation was "well over" an hour. pnwmom Jan 2014 #135

The mother has a normal heart beat, too, and she's definitely dead. pnwmom Jan 2014 #133

If the fetus is dead then the woman can be unplugged. LisaL Jan 2014 #149

Is it ethical to force life support on someone who has said, whose family says, no? uppityperson Jan 2014 #151

The woman can and should be unplugged because SHE is dead. pnwmom Jan 2014 #155

The mother has a normal heart beat, too, and she's definitely dead. pnwmom Jan 2014 #132

The fetus isn't insured. jeff47 Jan 2014 #22

But using that logic, if she was 9 months pregnant but brain dead, insurance can refuse LisaL Jan 2014 #32

Yep, it can. jeff47 Jan 2014 #34

Well isn't it great. LisaL Jan 2014 #35

Realistically, the hospital would probably avoid billing for the c-section jeff47 Jan 2014 #36

I would think hospital would bill the insurance and insurance would have to pay to avoid the LisaL Jan 2014 #52

Insurance companies regularly kill people. I don't think they'd care. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2014 #53

Thats not how it works most of the time but yes they can refuse...insurance companies make Drew Richards Jan 2014 #99

I tried to add my son to my health insurance b4 he was born MissMillie Jan 2014 #30

The fetus is not a legal person -- a "life in being." The Stranger Jan 2014 #168

Nope. And she was declared dead, according to the lawsuit. n/t pnwmom Jan 2014 #130

I've been watching this and pretty much horrified. polly7 Jan 2014 #2

That's a logical question n/t malaise Jan 2014 #8

The uh, uh, ...let's call them people*... doing the forcing should pay. Solly Mack Jan 2014 #3

I know of a number of cases where families did want pregnancy to continue. LisaL Jan 2014 #5

Brain-dead is dead malaise Jan 2014 #7

The mother is dead. The fetus isn't. LisaL Jan 2014 #9

That's the families' business malaise Jan 2014 #10

If brain dead is dead, how is it the family's business? LisaL Jan 2014 #12

Is it ethical to keep her on mechanical support? She and her family said they didn't want it. Is it uppityperson Jan 2014 #40

Yes or no? Is it ethical to force her to stay on mechanical support even though she and her family uppityperson Jan 2014 #55

Did you miss this question? I know it can be confusing to keep the discussions straight. uppityperson Jan 2014 #59

If the family wishes to uphold her wishes, it is the family's business. wtf? uppityperson Jan 2014 #60

Are you really this dense or are you just baiting people to get your jolly's off. Drew Richards Jan 2014 #100

Hard to tell, isn't it? She's everywhere and incredibly persistent. nt Hekate Jan 2014 #105

Everywhere? And that's concerns you how? LisaL Jan 2014 #113

Try answering the points I made in #76--or anybody else's. Skip the canned speech; we've seen it... Hekate Jan 2014 #160

Persistent in never answering a question. uppityperson Jan 2014 #123

Why do you say the fetus isn't in the same state as the woman? Heart beats in both. uppityperson Jan 2014 #15

Did anybody verify that fetus is brain dead? No. LisaL Jan 2014 #18

Did anyone verify that the fetus has a functioning brain? No. Does anyone beyond you think uppityperson Jan 2014 #24

I have no clue what kind of health issues the fetus suffered (if any). LisaL Jan 2014 #33

Yet you claim "The fetus isn't" braindead. Since you have no clue, how can you claim that? uppityperson Jan 2014 #39

I said it isn't dead. LisaL Jan 2014 #42

What do you base "it doesn't appear to be dead" on? uppityperson Jan 2014 #45

It has a normal heart beat. LisaL Jan 2014 #48

You mean like the woman has a normal heart beat? uppityperson Jan 2014 #49

What evidence do you have this fetus isn't alive? LisaL Jan 2014 #51

You mean like the woman has a normal heart beat? uppityperson Jan 2014 #54

No we shouldn't. LisaL Jan 2014 #56

Should be assume all fetuses with a heartbeat are alive? uppityperson Jan 2014 #57

The fetus was at 21 (update: 14) weeks when the mother died... ljm2002 Jan 2014 #84

Actually, it was only 14 weeks. PeaceNikki Jan 2014 #87

Thank you for the correction... ljm2002 Jan 2014 #90

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ uppityperson Jan 2014 #97

++++++++++ Starry Messenger Jan 2014 #109

they were pulling the same stuff with Terry Schiavo CreekDog Jan 2014 #167

I did say the people doing the forcing, yes? And unless the dead woman doing the incubating agreed Solly Mack Jan 2014 #11

Family should pay? LisaL Jan 2014 #14

Damn. I didn't realize I'd have to run through bullshit today. Solly Mack Jan 2014 #21

Sorry. I guess you are just too smart for me. LisaL Jan 2014 #23

No one offers health insurance to fetuses. jeff47 Jan 2014 #25

Let me guess rbixby Jan 2014 #28

No idea. jeff47 Jan 2014 #31

But this is not one of them. n/t ljm2002 Jan 2014 #81

Duh who you think Drew Richards Jan 2014 #93

Never have I seen such a violation of a family's rights malaise Jan 2014 #6

Seriously. uppityperson Jan 2014 #16

Should the fetus come out impaired, I'm sure all those well intentioned *people Solly Mack Jan 2014 #19

All the while voting to shred the safety net for the disabled & impoverished among us. CrispyQ Jan 2014 #26

Exactly! But they'll count that forced birth as a 'moral' (coughcough) victory. Solly Mack Jan 2014 #29

and then walk away as the Dad is forced to care for an impaired child for life SoCalDem Jan 2014 #75

Yep. Solly Mack Jan 2014 #78

I wonder who is doing the forcing KT2000 Jan 2014 #71

The hospital claims it is only following the law and if that is the case Solly Mack Jan 2014 #73

That should be my relative malaise Jan 2014 #83

Downright morbid. Solly Mack Jan 2014 #86

I'm going to be sick KT2000 Jan 2014 #88

You're welcome. Solly Mack Jan 2014 #91

All this will be a walk in the park - if the fetus becomes viable but on being born is srican69 Jan 2014 #37

"brain-dead" is just as dead as "cardiac dead." just sayin'... magical thyme Jan 2014 #38

Cardiac dead wouldn't be able to "incubate" a fetus. LisaL Jan 2014 #43

This message was self-deleted by its author jeff47 Jan 2014 #64

Legally they are both dead. brain dead only can incubate a fetus with mechanical and other support. magical thyme Jan 2014 #65

Using that logic, it's perfectly fine to turn off life support from a full term pregnant woman. LisaL Jan 2014 #67

um... a full term baby can be removed and survive. viability is an important point in this. PeaceNikki Jan 2014 #74

Nonsense. What is your motivation in this continuing argument? Life begins at conception? Hekate Jan 2014 #76

Thank you and I am sorry. PeaceNikki Jan 2014 #77

This message was self-deleted by its author LisaL Jan 2014 #122

Whoosh. I am thinking you are a one handed typist. eom uppityperson Jan 2014 #124

The decision should always be made by the family, not the hospital. liberal_at_heart Jan 2014 #85

If the person is brain dead, the laws say hospital has a right to turn off life support. LisaL Jan 2014 #141

Is that ethical? uppityperson Jan 2014 #146

With a full term pregnant woman, or even a woman at 24 weeks, a baby can be delivered pnwmom Jan 2014 #134

It can be, but why? LisaL Jan 2014 #140

I don't think they should bother removing the fetus from the body. pnwmom Jan 2014 #156

then why are you proposing doing that? CreekDog Jan 2014 #166

Legally, I'm pretty confident you are WAY off TroglodyteScholar Jan 2014 #94

They just issued one for Jahi McMath. LisaL Jan 2014 #118

"the" medical facility? She's not in a hospital. uppityperson Jan 2014 #125

And? I don't know where she is, but she is somewhere attached to life support. LisaL Jan 2014 #128

" can't recall any stories of a Death Certificate being issued for someone who's still in the... uppityperson Jan 2014 #131

It was issued when she was still at the hospital. LisaL Jan 2014 #138

They didn't "just issue it". She HAS been moved. And, to be fair, lots of death certs are issued uppityperson Jan 2014 #142

She was still at the hospital when death certificate was issued. LisaL Jan 2014 #147

Exactly. They did "just issue it" like you wrote. Is it ethical to keep someone on mechanical suppor uppityperson Jan 2014 #148

Is it ethical to force life support on someone who has said, whose family says, no? uppityperson Jan 2014 #143

More than that malaise Jan 2014 #163

Wot? Wait you never heard of anyone signing a death certificate to have someone pop awake on Drew Richards Jan 2014 #121

Actually many death certs are issued to people who die in hospitals. uppityperson Jan 2014 #145

It's a sad situation. herding cats Jan 2014 #41

I thought the hospital was going to check the fetus this week? ryan_cats Jan 2014 #44

Yes, they were planning to do tests soon. LisaL Jan 2014 #47

Back in December, a local publication Cerridwen Jan 2014 #50

WAIT...I GOT AN IDEA. IF they wont declare her dead then technically shes alive and a patient Drew Richards Jan 2014 #108

Family argues a legally dead person is not a "patient", therefore statute does not apply stg81 Jan 2014 #61

And they are correct malaise Jan 2014 #89

A corpse incubating a fetus HockeyMom Jan 2014 #79

In US they can not. LisaL Jan 2014 #117

Not only that... ljm2002 Jan 2014 #80

The very second that child is delivered, the husband needs to file a wrongful birth lawsuit kestrel91316 Jan 2014 #96

I agree with you, but who would the defendant be? jmowreader Jan 2014 #110

The hospital. And the state of Texass. kestrel91316 Jan 2014 #152

Please stop with the dehumanizing language. Th1onein Jan 2014 #101

Her family insist that she is dead n/t malaise Jan 2014 #102

Yes, but I doubt her family is calling her a corpse. Th1onein Jan 2014 #115

Fact - every dead person is a corpse malaise Jan 2014 #161

No one is denying that fact. But when you're talking about a family member's loved one.... Th1onein Jan 2014 #169

Her family says she's dead. jeff47 Jan 2014 #114

She became "dehumanized" when she died. Barack_America Jan 2014 #150