General Discussion

Shipwack

(3,068 posts)

104. I'm surprised there is this much controversy... no reason to complicate this.

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 06:39 PM

Dec 2011

There are several issues involved with the Manning case, and various people seem to think they rely on each other. These are separate issues, and the status of each is independent of the others.

1) Did Manning give classified information to Wiki-leaks? The answer to this has nothing to do with what kind of performance marks he got, or if he tussled with another sailor.

2) If he did, was this the morally correct thing to do? Just because an act is illegal doesn't mean it was immoral. If he had evidence that a crime was being covered up, what could he do if no one was willing to investigate it?

3) Was Manning a "good sailor"? He could be a dirtbag, and still not be guilty of leaking classified information. Or he could be a dirtbag, but do the right thing for the wrong reasons. What is a "good Sailor", anyway? Was he considered a dirtbag because he stood a poor watch and was negligent in his duties? Or was he not liked because he didn't let others steal government property, or he reported the command golden child for being drunk on duty?

4) Is Manning being ill treated in his confinement? Even if he is guilty, that is not an excuse to physically or mentally abuse him.

For those playing the home game, my opinion is yes, yes, no, yes; not that it matters.... But just because he had poor evals, didn't work and play well with others, or had sexual identification issues doesn't mean he did the wrong (or right) thing. People are complicated creatures, and no person is completely good or completely bad.

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To the Manning defenders... [View all] Cid_B Dec 2011 OP

I also heard that he fucks goats. Luminous Animal Dec 2011 #1

And makes babies cry in order to drink their tears. Matariki Dec 2011 #7

While fucking goats. And looking at himself in the mirror. The horror. Luminous Animal Dec 2011 #14

gee your PatrynXX Dec 2011 #83

Yep. It was the fireballs that convinced me. Crime in government - naah, but anal fireballs?! saras Dec 2011 #107

Before or after he throws them out of their incubators? Cherchez la Femme Dec 2011 #108

He's gay, right? He, therefore, makes baby Jesus cry. FedUp_Queer Dec 2011 #174

? i hadn't heard. seabeyond Dec 2011 #2

I've posted it more than a few times--he hit a female superior officer msanthrope Dec 2011 #111

i read it thru out the thread. listening to the man seabeyond Dec 2011 #112

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #116

Deserved it? Lisa D Dec 2011 #119

He was reduced in rank for it. That's how he went from PVT to PFC NavyDem Dec 2011 #120

Whoa....whoa....whoa..... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2011 #124

The higher the monkey climbs the more he shows his ass. AtomicKitten Dec 2011 #125

And the decision to hide it redqueen Dec 2011 #203

Free Repbublic? krucial Dec 2011 #161

Thank you, krucial, for putting it better than I ever could. tblue Dec 2011 #167

+1000, brother! pinboy3niner Dec 2011 #170

The post that you're agreeing with supports Manning, but NavyDem Dec 2011 #173

Your points on Manning are not wrong.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2011 #179

Judging the message and judging the messenger can be separated... Shoe Horn Dec 2011 #190

"deserved it" tammywammy Dec 2011 #128

Technically he said "Perhaps she insulted him and deserved it." ... no need to take out of context LooseWilly Dec 2011 #149

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #162

You're not saying that insulting someone deserves a physical response, are you? Shoe Horn Dec 2011 #191

I can distinguish between the two. tblue Dec 2011 #164

Being glad for another's straw man ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #176

To what do you refer? NavyDem Dec 2011 #3

As per court activities yesterday... Cid_B Dec 2011 #13

As every single other accusation that has been presented in any case that has been presented on this Luminous Animal Dec 2011 #16

He allegedly bragged about it in this chat log: joshcryer Dec 2011 #22

Every dyke that I know calls themselves a dyke. (Thus, dyke march) Every gay Luminous Animal Dec 2011 #37

You asked for proof of the allegation. joshcryer Dec 2011 #38

I'm a lesbian Aerows Dec 2011 #63

I agree - however Dyke is far from offensive to the community as a whole FreeState Dec 2011 #129

Thank You . unapatriciated Dec 2011 #185

he would have to make a habit of it PatrynXX Dec 2011 #85

He also told the guy he was talking to precisely what he was doing...! MADem Dec 2011 #91

Thufferen Thapho.... ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #206

Testimony by an eye-witness isn't hearsay; it's evidence. pnwmom Dec 2011 #75

I see. NavyDem Dec 2011 #21

The attack on his superior officer led to his demotion in rank tammywammy Dec 2011 #26

I think that is a separate incident NavyDem Dec 2011 #29

I think the civilians writing up this stuff don't understand that a leading petty officer or other MADem Dec 2011 #99

I'm reading this post and wondering. FedUp_Queer Dec 2011 #78

It sounds to me that he is ill mentally. I hope he is getting some treatment while in custody. nt Mojorabbit Dec 2011 #81

Bringing up previous offenses NavyDem Dec 2011 #143

I'm not sure. FedUp_Queer Dec 2011 #172

The Manual for Courts Martial gives the rules of evidence I believe NavyDem Dec 2011 #177

Whether or not it's "court-martiable" is not really the issue as I see it. FedUp_Queer Dec 2011 #182

If they're not admissible NavyDem Dec 2011 #184

Am I addressing cap'n Queeg here? ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #196

TL;DR NavyDem Dec 2011 #198

Those poor souls... Cid_B Dec 2011 #199

This message was self-deleted by its author ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #201

Hey smart guy... Cid_B Dec 2011 #210

You are correct....my apologies. ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #211

It's really starting to sound like the government/military dropped the ball on this thing. ChadwickHenryWard Dec 2011 #110

That's a statement we ALL should be able to agree on. MH1 Dec 2011 #139

There seemed to be very little in terms of physical or adminstrative control... NavyDem Dec 2011 #142

I don't understand that defense. ChadwickHenryWard Dec 2011 #183

I believe it's possibly angling towards an argument of entrapment. boppers Dec 2011 #187

And from wikipedia: Scurrilous Dec 2011 #25

If this is true then he most definitely is not mentally stable. n/t vaberella Jan 2012 #212

...to "their" cause...? To which cause do you refer? n/t xocet Dec 2011 #27

The cause that supports Manning and claims he is this shining light... Cid_B Dec 2011 #62

I don't doubt that charges like these will crop up against Manning truedelphi Dec 2011 #88

He was demoted in rank for hitting a female soldier and on his way to being discharged. tammywammy Dec 2011 #93

Good to know. n/t truedelphi Dec 2011 #133

He doesn't get an ethical pass for that eridani Dec 2011 #115

+1 redqueen Dec 2011 #204

Do you have any evidence to back up her "she said" claim? And Julian Assange is a rapist ... right? Better Believe It Dec 2011 #118

Here's him saying it in the chat logs tammywammy Dec 2011 #121

Is there any proof he actually said that? Bjorn Against Dec 2011 #132

I have not seen anything denying they're real tammywammy Dec 2011 #134

Has he publicly admitted they were real? The fact that you have not heard a denial is not evidence. Bjorn Against Dec 2011 #137

If they're not authentic then I'm sure Coombs will quickly bring that up in the hearing. tammywammy Dec 2011 #140

I've really got to start bookmarking the articles I read... NavyDem Dec 2011 #144

Here's one: tammywammy Dec 2011 #146

I don't disagree with your point at all. NavyDem Dec 2011 #157

Why would he bring it up if it has nothing to do with the case? Bjorn Against Dec 2011 #148

Why wouldn't he bring up the chat logs? tammywammy Dec 2011 #151

So stick to the parts that are relevant to the case. Bjorn Against Dec 2011 #152

I think this is relevant to what the defense is trying to say tammywammy Dec 2011 #158

It is much harder to forge two chat logs, on two different computers... boppers Dec 2011 #188

Sounds more like you migrated to the hearsay of a witness... MrMickeysMom Dec 2011 #168

Wow, this whole OP is a pile of out-of-context tripe spinning... spectacular! LooseWilly Dec 2011 #171

he struck a superior. in the military, that is not.a small issue. also "trained for combat" stevenleser Dec 2011 #186

All that matters to them is the war. NutmegYankee Dec 2011 #4

None of that happened. truedelphi Dec 2011 #90

He was a good QB, and his extracurriculars, say what you like, didn't affect the point spread kenny blankenship Dec 2011 #5

He was, but he played for a crappy team his entire career. madinmaryland Dec 2011 #64

??? spanone Dec 2011 #6

My understanding is that he is being held and tried for exposing military 'secrets'-- bertman Dec 2011 #8

+1 MichaelMcGuire Dec 2011 #60

Yes, yes yes nt duhneece Dec 2011 #87

Thank you. Better answer than I could give (n/t) bread_and_roses Dec 2011 #95

+1 polly7 Dec 2011 #100

Hello, Mr. Flamebait. Matariki Dec 2011 #9

Slime as sport, what fun DJ13 Dec 2011 #10

me thinks you have manning and that other guy assange mixed up....... MindMover Dec 2011 #11

Let me turn the question around nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #12

But he doesn't comment on non-existent bank prosecutions. kenny blankenship Dec 2011 #17

Let the court decide on that. NavyDem Dec 2011 #24

Oh that is but one example nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #32

I am aware of the credentials of the investigating officer, and the request that he recuse himself. NavyDem Dec 2011 #35

So you think somebody who is working on wiki leaks as a civillian is a-ok? nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #36

He doesn't work on Wikileaks for the DoJ tammywammy Dec 2011 #39

What I think doesn't matter in the legal sense, NavyDem Dec 2011 #40

We part company... court misconduct nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #45

Where was it reported that the investigating officer worked on the Wikileaks case? Azathoth Dec 2011 #41

Among other places, Countdown nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #44

This isn't an example at all -- you're simply asserting something without any documentary evidence Azathoth Dec 2011 #47

Ok, you asked and you did not like nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #49

No, I asked for an answer but you apparently didn't have one Azathoth Dec 2011 #51

Au cntrainere I gave you an answer nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #65

This message was self-deleted by its author Obamanaut Dec 2011 #200

Countdown misspoke, if they did say such a thing. There is no conflict of interest. MADem Dec 2011 #102

He doesn't work on Wikileaks for the DoJ tammywammy Dec 2011 #46

Ah, the plot thickens Azathoth Dec 2011 #48

It doesn't matter. Obama already pronounced Manning guilty EFerrari Dec 2011 #55

+1000! Shining Jack Dec 2011 #192

It is transparently ridiculous for this individual to be assigned this case given EFerrari Dec 2011 #54

lol, so we're playing six degrees of Eric Holder now? Azathoth Dec 2011 #59

Nope. He works for Eric Holder. That's no degrees. nt EFerrari Dec 2011 #79

Are you sure, nadin? JDPriestly Dec 2011 #50

That is why defense asked him to recuse himself nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #66

No, it's not. tammywammy Dec 2011 #71

I still respect the weapons inspection work of Scott Ritter. Gregorian Dec 2011 #15

Yes, punching a female soldier is why he was demoted in rank. n/t tammywammy Dec 2011 #18

Bring charges on this matter and we will examine the merits of them. TheKentuckian Dec 2011 #19

you're first post expressing a concern about someone being beat up CreekDog Dec 2011 #20

Must resist my grammar nazi urges.... Cid_B Dec 2011 #52

yes, by all means, correct the mangled word CreekDog Dec 2011 #53

.......... Angry Dragon Dec 2011 #23

how many people has he murdered by way of drone attacks? nt msongs Dec 2011 #28

What does that have to do with anything? RZM Dec 2011 #101

... MrMickeysMom Dec 2011 #166

I am unaware of anything negative he's done. Fire Walk With Me Dec 2011 #30

I salute bradley Manning William769 Dec 2011 #31

How many Iraqi civilians did he kill? Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2011 #33

Oskar Schindler cheated on his wife and clusterfucked every business he ever ran... backscatter712 Dec 2011 #34

I know of other civil rights leaders who cheated on their wife duhneece Dec 2011 #89

I know Eli had a bad game but this is a little harsh Ter Dec 2011 #42

The Straw Men are strong in this one. Hissyspit Dec 2011 #43

Hey now! If it weren't for "strawmen", we would have missed out on this splendeforous thread! Behind the Aegis Dec 2011 #56

If it weren't for straw men pscot Dec 2011 #106

LOL, that's perfect (n/t) bread_and_roses Dec 2011 #97

Sorry, that's not the issue Betty Karlson Dec 2011 #57

It shows his character... Cid_B Dec 2011 #58

You're twisting my words Betty Karlson Dec 2011 #61

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #84

Character and motivations are irrelevant eridani Dec 2011 #135

"Any man who would hit a woman because of his own issues is a shitbag. " Shining Jack Dec 2011 #193

*yawn* Cid_B Dec 2011 #194

Yawn? Shining Jack Dec 2011 #197

i saw what you did there... dionysus Dec 2011 #67

few people on planet earth are with out character defects and moral holes in them. xchrom Dec 2011 #68

Correct... Cid_B Dec 2011 #69

i'm sure you have a few character defects that stand out for me as well. nt xchrom Dec 2011 #72

To be sure... Cid_B Dec 2011 #73

Kick the true weakling when he's down Laughing Mirror Dec 2011 #77

Bradley Manning is like Robert Novak?... SidDithers Dec 2011 #70

Indeed. Weren't we pissed about what Novak did? nt msanthrope Dec 2011 #113

Apparently, Novak was just a whistleblower...nt SidDithers Dec 2011 #114

I don't get this 'but he never killed anybody' business RZM Dec 2011 #103

It takes less nerve to hold up Manning than to make a post like this without Vinnie From Indy Dec 2011 #74

You don't like witness statements ? Cid_B Dec 2011 #92

The guy is guilty and should be jailed surfdog Dec 2011 #76

Peyton or Eli? Charlemagne Dec 2011 #80

The testimony so far has been jaw-dropping. AtomicKitten Dec 2011 #82

Bradley Manning was / continues to only care about himself. chrisa Dec 2011 #86

And where did you get your degree in psychology? EFerrari Dec 2011 #117

Can't prove me wrong, eh? chrisa Dec 2011 #126

Maybe use your Google and search "proving a negative". nt EFerrari Dec 2011 #131

So? eridani Dec 2011 #136

There is no question that a lot of good has come from chrisa Dec 2011 #145

I could care less who he is as a person eridani Dec 2011 #155

Excellent post in a sea of questional motivations AuntPatsy Dec 2011 #207

Says who? MrMickeysMom Dec 2011 #163

It's my opinion. Like I said above, think what you want of it. chrisa Dec 2011 #178

I will think what I want of it... MrMickeysMom Dec 2011 #181

Pay phones, that only take 35 cents, still exist? boppers Dec 2011 #189

Well, I remember one in TX costing 10cents outside and HEB store! MrMickeysMom Dec 2011 #208

The REAL Question is.... fascisthunter Dec 2011 #94

This thread on the homepage is why unrec needs to come back Eliminator Dec 2011 #96

Can not erase the fact krucial Dec 2011 #98

I find it sad that... Shipwack Dec 2011 #105

I'm surprised there is this much controversy... no reason to complicate this. Shipwack Dec 2011 #104

You do know that the Army doesn't have sailors right? nt NavyDem Dec 2011 #130

Dear Cid--thank you for exposing this. When I posted it yesterday, 'crickets.' msanthrope Dec 2011 #109

Exposing what? Hissyspit Dec 2011 #122

classic GOP-style smear campaign -- it's a shame some in our party are so threatened by Manning nashville_brook Dec 2011 #127

You are right krucial Dec 2011 #156

News to me, but it's not his personal life that draws accolades. Deep13 Dec 2011 #123

You do realize Manning is more than likely Transgender? FreeState Dec 2011 #138

Um, I hope I'm not being insensitive in some way, but why would it be relevant? MH1 Dec 2011 #147

There is no he if Manning identifies as female. FreeState Dec 2011 #150

Yeah, but didn't he report to duty as a male? MH1 Dec 2011 #153

Mannings supervisors knew of Mannings gender identity FreeState Dec 2011 #154

Because it has nothing to do with his status as a whitsleblower or the way he's been treated? Puregonzo1188 Dec 2011 #141

I thought Manning was being defended against the false charges of being a traitor? DirkGently Dec 2011 #159

I'd rather defend a bad guy who did right TomClash Dec 2011 #160

You appear to have an agenda... MrMickeysMom Dec 2011 #165

Plus 10,000 and then 10,000 more ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #175

Wow! the shallow sanctimony here is strange and profound. ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #169

Well, let's at least rec each other... MrMickeysMom Dec 2011 #180

Adrian....is that you. nt nr ooglymoogly Dec 2011 #195

He beat a woman, therefor he lost his 4th and 6th Amendment rights. Bucky Dec 2011 #202

+1 redqueen Dec 2011 #205

+1 again MNBrewer Dec 2011 #209

I separate the art from the artist, the cause from the individual, etc... LanternWaste Mar 2012 #213

+1 nt ooglymoogly Apr 2012 #214