General Discussion

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)

102. As I explained before, the normal, legal thing to do in that situation is to ask to discuss the matt

Fri Jan 17, 2014, 12:46 AM

Jan 2014

matter in a closed session. Clapper handled it so that the information he was denying or trying to hide was revealed. He revealed it. It was a lie. It was corrected. The truth came out.

Our government keeps too many secrets from us. It is so bad that I have to say I do not think we live in anything approaching a democracy. There is no excuse for the extent of the secrecy. Some secrecy may be necessary, but we need to know that our e-mails and other activity on electronic media is under surveillance. We are not free when such a fact is kept from us. In fact, we are not free when the government collects our metadata.

I have not worked in government intelligence services, but I have done an unusual configuration of jobs that includes working in the billing, service department of a telephone company, having a great-aunt who was "central" in a small town way back when and research in another capacity that sometimes involved telephone records. So I know what can be done with metadata. I do not want anyone outside of the telephone company collecting my metadata without a court order, a subpoena served on me as well as on the telephone company. I pay for the phone service, and I feel that as a part of my phone service, I purchase my phone and internet data. The government should subpoena it if they want to see it. The Fourth Amendment requires no less.

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I know, I suck. But a serious question: [View all] MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 OP

IF he were caught in a Lie before Congress...you can BET the Republican run House would VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #1

Or on just about every news source there is. Savannahmann Jan 2014 #19

Do they outright say "he lied"? VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #28

Yes. Savannahmann Jan 2014 #76

thats a quote...someone said that... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #77

Complicated? Savannahmann Jan 2014 #80

Yes...complicated...you know....not exactly black and white...kinda grey... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #103

Apparently you haven't been paying attention. Savannahmann Jan 2014 #136

LOL "If you keep this up, they are liable to elect you to congress." hueymahl Jan 2014 #233

Right. GeorgeGist Jan 2014 #161

HE admitted lying. There is no doubt that he lied. He has a boss, he should be fired, but he hasn't sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #91

Why did the Senate give Clapper a pass? MrMickeysMom Jan 2014 #154

And here is a rebuttal...from your darling...The Guardian VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #30

So Clapper's own lawyer says he didn't lie? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #42

Well I disputed the non-disputed claim! VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #49

It's not in dispute that he lied to congress. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #20

Its not? They why isn't he up on charges for lying to a Republican Congress? VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #27

I'm not in Congress, so I don't know why. This changes nothing. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #29

IF YOUR contention were absolutely true as you contend....then he would VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #33

If the issue would harm the military and not the civil government, the Republicans would allow JDPriestly Jan 2014 #51

To paint Obama...they would stop at NOTHING and you know it... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #52

Except they did. Marr Jan 2014 #61

I KNOW what Republicans would do...and so do you! VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #62

Apparently you don't-- because they didn't. Marr Jan 2014 #67

Apparently I do..."undisputed" is Malarkey! VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #71

Clapper IS a Republican. Maedhros Jan 2014 #87

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China....do YOU seriously think VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #88

The Republican Party, like YOU, approves of the ubiquitous, pervasive surveillance state. Maedhros Jan 2014 #97

Where did it say I "approved"? Kindly keep your words out of my mouth VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #101

The only posts I ever see from you are bashing critics of either the NSA or drone murder. Maedhros Jan 2014 #131

You shut that persona down with truth bobduca Jan 2014 #204

That cut to the heart of the matter. Octafish Jan 2014 #208

Then clear it up for us. Do you support Clapper the Republican? rhett o rick Jan 2014 #132

Of for gawdsake! The man knew the truth yet replied in what he says was "the least untruthful" way. delrem Jan 2014 #135

Are you really being honest with this? lark Jan 2014 #252

That is the question of the OP. merrily Jan 2014 #107

Because Clapper is a Republican. Duh. Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #119

You follow a strange logic. He isnt up on charges for lying to a Republican Congress rhett o rick Jan 2014 #124

Oh yes it is...(not in dispute my Aunt Fanny) VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #32

Oh my god. The spook's own lawyer said it wasn't a lie. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #36

So? You said "not disputed" and I said yes it is... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #38

Come on...you should know better. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #45

NO you should know better...you think Republicans would miss THAT chance VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #48

Well, they didn't go after him. Marr Jan 2014 #57

No they didn't ...even though YOU say that he did... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #58

It's pointless discussing anything with a person who insists on rejecting uncontested facts. /nt Marr Jan 2014 #63

Uncontested is baloney...thats what i am posting about... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #66

Under penalties of perjury, Clapper told the Senate that he had lied to them. merrily Jan 2014 #142

Some people will never get it solarhydrocan Jan 2014 #90

that poster "gets it" its playing dumb in an effort to derail this thread. bobduca Jan 2014 #205

Only four senators - total - voted against Obama's nominee for US Trade Rep last year MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #81

WTF does that have to do with the opportunity to smear Obama with a VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #82

I think they'll do whatever they're paid to do. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #83

So? Undisputed is the charge here....and if THAT were the case... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #84

Yes. Undisputed by all but the staff attorney. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #184

NO as I said...if it WERE not in DISPUTE ....he would be up on charges... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #211

No seriously they wouldnt. bobduca Jan 2014 #256

Yes seriously....they would... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #259

Did he correct it privately? merrily Jan 2014 #122

Obviously not-- and that ought to make you examine some of your assumptions. Marr Jan 2014 #53

are you able to judge for yourself? Enrique Jan 2014 #150

This question will agitate, Manny. 1000words Jan 2014 #2

excellent questions.... mike_c Jan 2014 #3

Who can say for sure that Obama is willing to take on the NSA. ... spin Jan 2014 #6

why would you ever believe the government when it talks about its spy program? nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #4

What aren't we "fine" with anymore? Except for poverty of course. Egalitarian Thug Jan 2014 #5

There was no answer Clapper could give that was legal. jeff47 Jan 2014 #7

Then he shouldn't have shown up. nt MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #9

Also illegal. jeff47 Jan 2014 #10

The White House could go to court MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #13

Yes, quashing Congressional subpoenas is so much more open. jeff47 Jan 2014 #16

Asking a question is breaking the law? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #17

When you know the answer to the question reveals classified information jeff47 Jan 2014 #18

Nice gymnastics, but the motherfucker lied to congress. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #21

Your desire for revenge doesn't change the law. jeff47 Jan 2014 #23

He lied to Congress. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #25

Yes, he was compelled to do so. jeff47 Jan 2014 #26

'Im not able to answer that question for national security reasons, but... DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #31

And now he gets the handcuffs. jeff47 Jan 2014 #34

Nope. No handcuffs for refusing to tell a lie. You're right that this sort of non-answer DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #41

Yes, handcuffs for refusing to tell a lie. jeff47 Jan 2014 #46

No Jeff. Just no. tkmorris Jan 2014 #54

They are asked broad questions. jeff47 Jan 2014 #65

If this represents your filter for determining truthfulness DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #185

Joe Strummer would be in his glory today MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #68

Nailed it. ctsnowman Jan 2014 #254

No, he had a choice between an honest answer that did not reveal classified info and lying. merrily Jan 2014 #130

It seems that these choie Jan 2014 #89

To make matters worse, he IS shrubs posse. TheKentuckian Jan 2014 #109

Exactly! ctsnowman Jan 2014 #255

As I explained before, the normal, legal thing to do in that situation is to ask to discuss the matt JDPriestly Jan 2014 #102

Yes, team Clapper fucked up. jeff47 Jan 2014 #108

Fucked up, my ass. merrily Jan 2014 #139

There is a chance that the Supreme Court will rule that the facts in any case involving the metadata JDPriestly Jan 2014 #147

BUT Clapper didn't get that question in advance did he? VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #35

"I sent the question to Director Clapper�s office a day in advance" MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #39

but he didn't get it! VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #50

Clapper admitted "Least Untruthful" answer, not "Oops, I fucked up" MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #56

Whether or not he did depends on who you want to believe. jeff47 Jan 2014 #40

Clapper said he lied. merrily Jan 2014 #111

And that doesn't change the problem. jeff47 Jan 2014 #116

Then don't claim he didn't lie. But you post is incorrect anyway. merrily Jan 2014 #118

I did not claim he didn't lie. jeff47 Jan 2014 #243

Given the two choices, I would believe the Democratic Senator Maedhros Jan 2014 #241

Who the hell is Litt? This is not Clapper explaining himself. merrily Jan 2014 #137

No words uttered by a congressperson in chambers is illegal. joshcryer Jan 2014 #151

Not necessarily. Wyden could have known the correct answer to his question merrily Jan 2014 #236

Sure there was. Hissyspit Jan 2014 #11

Then name it. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2014 #12

He could have immediately asked that the discussion continue in a closed session. JDPriestly Jan 2014 #55

Already covered that. jeff47 Jan 2014 #60

Then he broke the law, but is above the law, so it's OK??? grahamhgreen Jan 2014 #104

No, it's basically a perjury trap. jeff47 Jan 2014 #115

For all realistic purposes, it was Wyden who revealed classified information during that hearing. merrily Jan 2014 #138

Then we should let a court decide as you suggest in your answer, otherwise, grahamhgreen Jan 2014 #189

Your alternatives have already been well covered. jeff47 Jan 2014 #217

It's like saying if a bank robber answers no to a robbery he committed that he should not be grahamhgreen Jan 2014 #265

Then he should have said that the answer was classified. No lie there Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #121

Already covered that. It reveals classified jeff47 Jan 2014 #213

So you are rationalizing his lying. Interesting who all comes to his defense. nm rhett o rick Jan 2014 #125

No, I'm explaining why he can't be prosecuted for it. jeff47 Jan 2014 #214

You are trying to justify his lies. He later admitted he lied. How different is that rhett o rick Jan 2014 #227

Snowden lied when he broke the oath he signed. randome Jan 2014 #230

Good question. Do you think their lies are justifiable? nm rhett o rick Jan 2014 #232

I understand Clapper's lie better. randome Jan 2014 #244

Of course Clapper is part of the authoritarian power structure and Snowden is merely rhett o rick Jan 2014 #245

There are no violations of law or the Constitution with the metadata. randome Jan 2014 #246

Um... Snowden didn't trick his coworkers. Hissyspit Jan 2014 #257

Nonsense. former9thward Jan 2014 #197

So he didn't answer in the manner we would have expected. Big deal. randome Jan 2014 #202

It is exactly the same as "Yes". jeff47 Jan 2014 #215

Wyden is not God. former9thward Jan 2014 #224

Good point. merrily Jan 2014 #238

Do you have a link on this? merrily Jan 2014 #251

Third possibility: Clapper and Obama both work for the same boss. Scuba Jan 2014 #8

Or fourth possibility...Clapper didn't answer correctly....because he hadn't seen them VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #37

Poor old confused REPUBLICAN Clapper. Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #123

Wow, what lengths some go to to defend this conservative authoritarian that is the rhett o rick Jan 2014 #126

Yeah, that was pretty amazing, wasn't it? Scuba Jan 2014 #152

This one has clearly decided to shift from "DEFENSE" bobduca Jan 2014 #207

Gen Clapper was a Republican when he worked for Bush and he is still rhett o rick Jan 2014 #228

That has my vote. I say the Carlyle Group via Booz-Allen. nm rhett o rick Jan 2014 #128

He is silent on our government's lying/fabricating evidence trails to arrest Americans woo me with science Jan 2014 #14

Ugh. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #15

What we need is a ProSense Jan 2014 #93

I'd settle for more Change bobduca Jan 2014 #117

Too bad we didn't do-over Rehnquist court decision Dec 12, 2000 MrMickeysMom Jan 2014 #156

This message was self-deleted by its author Recursion Jan 2014 #22

Oh lordy....you certainly suck at civics! If Clapper lied to Congress, then the CONGRESS needs to msanthrope Jan 2014 #24

Remember the Outrageous! Outrageous! IRS scandal? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #43

The head of the IRS wasn't fired, Manny, except in FoxNoozland. He retired. So why didn't Wyden msanthrope Jan 2014 #47

No. Fired. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #59

Exactly, Manny, and thank you proving my point. Miller resigned and retired. Federal employees msanthrope Jan 2014 #64

He was asked to resign, he complied, and thus he retired. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #69

So then he wasn't fired, was he? You were wrong. nt msanthrope Jan 2014 #70

Utterly MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #74

nice Vattel Jan 2014 #99

We must all frankly admit our mistakes MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #110

Funny how you are pushing the IRS and Benghazi today... msanthrope Jan 2014 #166

First off, I was wrong about being wrong - I just looked it up. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #171

No...Fox News was upset that he wasn't fired...but allowed to retire as planned... msanthrope Jan 2014 #174

He was forced out of his post. Prematurely. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #175

Nonsense..... cite the federal reg that says there's a term limit to an Acting Director of the IRS. msanthrope Jan 2014 #179

I await your apology MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #182

You are not getting one. I just made you prove my point that Miller was retiring, anyway, msanthrope Jan 2014 #212

Strange. I don't see the word "retire" in that document. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #261

If you don't understand, I can't help you. nt msanthrope Jan 2014 #263

The resignation was a joke, a sop for the public. merrily Jan 2014 #141

I know...his resignation and his retirement date were exactly the same, and msanthrope Jan 2014 #164

Gracious to the President, as he and the President were deceiving Americans merrily Jan 2014 #231

Who was deceived, but for Republicans? nt msanthrope Jan 2014 #235

huh? What does Republican or Democrat have to do with it? merrily Jan 2014 #237

Wyden asked that question purely for political capital. joshcryer Jan 2014 #153

Well, if progressive heroes like Wyden prefer to spend their political chits msanthrope Jan 2014 #180

Maybe he did ask for street cred F4lconF16 Jan 2014 #234

True, but that must mean the revalations aren't big. joshcryer Jan 2014 #260

"Why hasn't Ron Wyden tried to get Clapper held for contempt?" MrMickeysMom Jan 2014 #158

Or maybe Wyden realized that was a question he wasn't supposed to ask during the msanthrope Jan 2014 #165

Maybe Ron Wyden is "fine" with the lie too. Sure looks that way. JoePhilly Jan 2014 #176

Wyden was just fine with how things turned out. nt msanthrope Jan 2014 #181

Exactly ... and if Wyden is fine with it, why isn't Manny calling him out too? JoePhilly Jan 2014 #183

Then let's hear it. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #187

I'm happy to ... JoePhilly Jan 2014 #192

Thanks for the straightforward answer. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #193

Do you agree ... JoePhilly Jan 2014 #196

r.e. the nevermind part: the OP mentioned that as a possibility, then pulled back. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #203

How does the NSA spy on Americans? By receiving copies of phone metadata? randome Jan 2014 #206

Bullshit. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #209

And ... JoePhilly Jan 2014 #218

You Better Believe It! nt msanthrope Jan 2014 #222

Frankly, it makes my Soul Itch. joshcryer Jan 2014 #262

Nailed it. nt msanthrope Jan 2014 #264

LOL !!! WillyT Jan 2014 #44

!!! MrMickeysMom Jan 2014 #159

I personally think the NSA is more powerful than Congress and the President. KauaiK Jan 2014 #72

Like a bankster owned police agency commissined by banksters to keep the government Zorra Jan 2014 #95

I agree. Clapper lied because he can. Who is going to stop him? nm rhett o rick Jan 2014 #133

If none of the people we elect have power, it's time for a coup. merrily Jan 2014 #144

We're probably there... MrMickeysMom Jan 2014 #160

Knowledge is power. jsr Jan 2014 #146

Then defund them, burn their structures and data storage Demeter Jan 2014 #148

Ding! Doctor_J Jan 2014 #225

Imo - lying is across 840high Jan 2014 #73

You should demand he be impeached. JoePhilly Jan 2014 #75

I think mutual orchestrations for mutual political ends overlook lying. We CAN'T believe it. ancianita Jan 2014 #78

Manny, the President isn't involved with a charge of contempt of Congress or Agnosticsherbet Jan 2014 #79

"It is like they want to bitch about it but don't want to do anything about it." MrMickeysMom Jan 2014 #162

I think Congress doesn't give a damn if the guy lied. I think it is politics and power. Agnosticsherbet Jan 2014 #221

ODS... SidDithers Jan 2014 #85

Well I think Clapper is the president's boss. zeemike Jan 2014 #86

Clapper cannot fire Obama, or "kick him upstairs" or reassign him. merrily Jan 2014 #120

Well like I said, put it out of your mind. zeemike Jan 2014 #127

MUST. blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #92

tigerram Tigerram Jan 2014 #94

My unserious answer is that the IRS guy lied also, at about the same merrily Jan 2014 #96

What did the IRS guy lie about? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #98

The not for profit flap. IIRC, he was acting head when he testified. merrily Jan 2014 #100

I don't remember the lying part MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #105

I don't think his retirement was sudden. merrily Jan 2014 #113

Here's the first link I found after a quick search" merrily Jan 2014 #106

Is Clapper a Cretan perchance? Fumesucker Jan 2014 #112

Or a cetacean? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #114

Obama is Clappers boss, so he could fire him. Clapper lied to to Congress so they neverforget Jan 2014 #129

Clapper works for the same boss as Obama. Obama cant fire him. nm rhett o rick Jan 2014 #134

Does Obama even want to fire him? merrily Jan 2014 #140

Boo! Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2014 #143

Dec. 18: Rand Paul slams James Clapper over NSA �lying� ucrdem Jan 2014 #145

if it was Benghazi, the GOP would be investigating right now Enrique Jan 2014 #155

The truth is the truth, and some of us follow where it leads DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #188

The truth is that no one in Congress considers it 'lying' when intelligence secrets are involved. randome Jan 2014 #194

Randome, you're wrong. Ron Wyden is a member of congress, and he knows he was lied to. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #195

Wow. Lots of badgesniffers out tonite. AngryAmish Jan 2014 #149

You must be really worried that Obama will announce actual changes today. randome Jan 2014 #157

This is going to be ProSense Jan 2014 #170

I saw that. It won't be enough. Obama quashed Occupy and he is a slave to the NSA. randome Jan 2014 #178

There are those ProSense Jan 2014 #186

Trouble is - why believe that now? djean111 Jan 2014 #190

But that's too little too late treestar Jan 2014 #199

The concern is that Obama will tell us "the least untruthful" things that he wants to MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #172

Fine. Don't trust anyone. Continue to be paranoid even when you get what you asked for. randome Jan 2014 #177

Your last sentence treestar Jan 2014 #200

That's why he wants people to ignore whatever the President says today. JoePhilly Jan 2014 #201

If I recall Shivering Jemmy Jan 2014 #163

This from the AP may signal a change Manny. Puglover Jan 2014 #167

Get a clue Manny. They are all fine with lying, that's what they do. nt bemildred Jan 2014 #168

You have an excellent argument, Manny. Enthusiast Jan 2014 #169

Jesus, look at the full meltdown in this thread. Capt. Obvious Jan 2014 #173

It made me LOL! Rex Jan 2014 #220

fuck you, Manny. You're the most popular sucker on the forum librechik Jan 2014 #191

Like four year olds interpret it, "lie" means say something I don't agree with treestar Jan 2014 #198

I figure Clapper's probably got the goods on everyone in Washington. Buns_of_Fire Jan 2014 #210

Not him personally, but the organization he is part of. Doctor_J Jan 2014 #226

Amazing performances by all the usual suspects. Carry on. Comrade Grumpy Jan 2014 #216

Wow you made all the authoritarians cry 'uncle'! Rex Jan 2014 #219

You don't suck Manny. You are great. Autumn Jan 2014 #223

Congress is in charge of busting people who lie to them. riqster Jan 2014 #229

If Congress chooses not to report the "crime", Progressive dog Jan 2014 #239

I don't know if this has already been posted, but, after the merrily Jan 2014 #240

Apparently, Clapper would go to jail if he had amended it. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #247

You mean if he amended it to Wyden and Wyden alone, as follows: merrily Jan 2014 #248

One persons "sorry spectacle of a thread" is another persons Autumn Jan 2014 #249

I'm not really sure that the matter of any of us "believing" what is said NorthCarolina Jan 2014 #242

Just a thought... davidthegnome Jan 2014 #250

A serious answer, Manny. ConservativeDemocrat Jan 2014 #253

I truly wish the President would tell us why the the NSA thing is so good and important. marble falls Jan 2014 #258