General Discussion

Armstead

(47,803 posts)

44. You're right but you're wrong

Sun Jan 26, 2014, 11:29 AM

Jan 2014

You're right that anything like this should be taken apart and considered in the open political process in very specific terms.

You're wrong that were "naive" about NAFTA and that somehow the forces of reason will surface to stop this.

The people who put NAFTA together (including the "good guys" like Clinton) weren't naive. They knew what they were doing, and they didn't care...There was plenty of opposition back then, but they just ignored it and did what they were gonna do.

They are doing the same thing now. Obama isn't naive. He's listening to the forces that want this thing for their own selfish interests. the rest us us be damned.

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You know, of course, that the TPP is already a done deal., But we should fight it anyway. [View all] Armstead Jan 2014 OP

of course it's a done deal, but you are damn right that we should not shut up and take it. liberal_at_heart Jan 2014 #1

Well, first we need to see what it says. And it won't be ratified before it is made MADem Jan 2014 #2

The admin is talking "fast track" while the people are in the dark. That's the problem. delrem Jan 2014 #4

Super fast track, the thing has only been in negotiations since 2010. Hoyt Jan 2014 #8

What is the definition of a fast track? Haven't we been batting this thing around for three years, MADem Jan 2014 #12

My God you need some help with this. Elwood P Dowd Jan 2014 #14

But the point I am making is that there's pushback from the House on this score, for starters. MADem Jan 2014 #16

When there is "fast track"... ReRe Jan 2014 #18

We have to be able to read it, though, first. They can't vote on it before it is published. MADem Jan 2014 #24

You might as well get aboard the protest wagon... ReRe Jan 2014 #25

It will have to be published and then 'read' (or have had the "waive reading" thing done) MADem Jan 2014 #27

The TPP like NAFTA is NOT a TREATY solarhydrocan Jan 2014 #28

So, if it's not a treaty, who "not ratifies" it, then? MADem Jan 2014 #30

Will it necessarily be up on Thomas before being voted on? MH1 Jan 2014 #37

It's an agreement not a treaty. You can see this by looking at the title of the agreement. solarhydrocan Jan 2014 #38

OK, so the full Congress votes on this thing--and it expires with every President? MADem Jan 2014 #61

They won't give Obama fast track authority. In unlikely event they did, and the agreement included Hoyt Jan 2014 #47

If Congresspeople can be believed... Chan790 Jan 2014 #33

Exactly. Hoyt Jan 2014 #48

Most of them have been done that way Armstead Jan 2014 #39

FTA and NAFTA were debated in Canada. Elections fought over them. Not secret. delrem Jan 2014 #54

I remember the Canadian debate..and the protests in the US Armstead Jan 2014 #55

NAFTA has been an environmental disaster, and it doesn't pretend to do what the leaks suggest JDPriestly Jan 2014 #6

So, what is your solution? We no longer enter into any world-wide partnerships? MADem Jan 2014 #9

So you want more world-wide partnerships Elwood P Dowd Jan 2014 #10

Please explain to me--and everyone else here who doesn't see what you seem to be suggesting is MADem Jan 2014 #11

The Trans-Pacific Partnership treaty is the complete opposite of 'free trade' solarhydrocan Jan 2014 #13

That article, though it is a few months old, has more answers in it than I've been able to MADem Jan 2014 #15

What is in those other 24 chapters of the TPP agreement? ReRe Jan 2014 #19

Dunno....no one else does either, I'm starting to think. MADem Jan 2014 #22

MADem... ReRe Jan 2014 #26

Congress is "allowed" to talk about pretty much anything they'd like. MADem Jan 2014 #29

They have talked about these agreements Armstead Jan 2014 #40

Apparently--and ain't it something what you find once ya start digging--Congress can SEE the drafts, MADem Jan 2014 #73

My understanding is that fast tracking means allowing an up or down vote only on the TPP, no changes nenagh Jan 2014 #20

I'm in the same boat--just trying to get a few details, here. MADem Jan 2014 #23

You're right but you're wrong Armstead Jan 2014 #44

Wait, wait, wait--I wasn't talking about the crafters of NAFTA, I was talking about the MADem Jan 2014 #57

Too many are naive and apathetic Armstead Jan 2014 #59

Well, free trade is a complex matter. MADem Jan 2014 #70

"We The People were naive." bvar22 Jan 2014 #64

Sorry, but "We The People" were, apparently, naive. MADem Jan 2014 #65

MaDEM, Here is the problem in a nutshell Armstead Jan 2014 #42

Well, generally speaking, I agree with what you are saying, simplistic or not. MADem Jan 2014 #60

These take the wrong approach Armstead Jan 2014 #67

But not if we want to answer China. And the more I think on it, that's what I think the goal is, MADem Jan 2014 #71

"Demopublicans" indeed. Alas. villager Jan 2014 #3

Demopublicans Phlem Jan 2014 #5

NO, it is NOT a "done deal". jazzimov Jan 2014 #7

This message was self-deleted by its author Armstead Jan 2014 #45

Because those 85 people who own the same tblue Jan 2014 #17

151 House Dems Telling President They Will Not Support Outdated Fast Track Bluenorthwest Jan 2014 #32

K&R'd. snot Jan 2014 #21

One of several reasons I simply no longer get excited about electing Democrats. nt Demo_Chris Jan 2014 #31

There is concerted opposition to this on the Democratic side, Republicans and Blue Dogs Bluenorthwest Jan 2014 #34

Yes, but as always the "opposition" is safe... Demo_Chris Jan 2014 #35

12 Democratic Senators send Reid a letter opposing the Fast Track..... Bluenorthwest Jan 2014 #43

Now THIS adds to the discussion....!!!! Thank you for digging this up. MADem Jan 2014 #72

We can stop it. We must stop it. Enthusiast Jan 2014 #36

LOL RB TexLa Jan 2014 #41

LOL. Hoyt Jan 2014 #50

not yet, it's not. close to a done deal, yeah. a truly done deal. no. and I daresay cali Jan 2014 #46

Depends on how one defines a done deal Armstead Jan 2014 #49

Actually, I think the Tea Party loons might help us here in the House. Marr Jan 2014 #51

is there a trade deal that hasn't been a done deal? G_j Jan 2014 #52

Oh, yeah it needs to be opposed. And just like the HRC... socialist_n_TN Jan 2014 #53

Would be a refreshing change it it were to be dropped Armstead Jan 2014 #56

just the suggestion that it is a "done deal" restorefreedom Jan 2014 #66

Yep and that's the point ....... socialist_n_TN Jan 2014 #74

No, it is not inevitable jsr Jan 2014 #58

This author doesn't want positive..where's the doom & gloom? great white snark Jan 2014 #62

Sure. Everything is hunky dory. Jakes Progress Jan 2014 #63

Oh you had to bring Nader into it Armstead Jan 2014 #68

Don't know it's a done deal yet, but when it is, then what? Cleita Jan 2014 #69

I hope not. blackspade Jan 2014 #75

No, TPP is not a done deal - we can stop it Distant Quasar Jan 2014 #76