General Discussion

loyalsister

(13,390 posts) Mon Jan 27, 2014, 06:45 PM Jan 2014

A conversation about the Confederate flag... [View all]

I was having a discussion with someone from the South who believes that the true meaning is not racist.
I said that a racist statement it is a legitimate interpretation if that is what the person brandishing it intends because there is a historical context to support that meaning.

So, I'm talking with a person who rejects that interpretation and has some affection for the symbol. What right do I have to make a claim to know the true meaning after having pointed out that there is more than one reasonable interpretation? I think it is most frequently used as a racist symbol. That, to me would seem like grounds to abandon it.

I was not able to convince her, and I felt like I should admit that never have had any other connection to it prevented me from fully understanding her POV. We did wind up having a pretty good mutually respectful conversation. It helps that she and I agree on most things. But, the conversation made me think that open mindedness goes beyond diversity and liberal ideas.
Thoughts?

162 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

A conversation about the Confederate flag... [View all] loyalsister Jan 2014 OP

Which confederate flag? Scootaloo Jan 2014 #1

I wasn't aware that there were so many loyalsister Jan 2014 #4

I'm from Alabama, and a big critic of "southern culture" Scootaloo Jan 2014 #9

Good points loyalsister Jan 2014 #15

Well, as Missouri wasn't part of the confederacy... Scootaloo Jan 2014 #26

"Missouri wasn't part of the confederacy" loyalsister Jan 2014 #42

And much of southern Missouri, at least, would have preferred to have joined the Confederacy Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #79

True loyalsister Jan 2014 #110

A phone call from Abraham Lincoln? Foolacious Jan 2014 #143

Nope it was an email loyalsister Jan 2014 #148

I first encountered that cartoon in James Loewen's excellent book "Lies My Teacher Told Me" arcane1 Jan 2014 #35

That is indeed a damn interesting book Scootaloo Jan 2014 #39

That sounds like a fascinating topic too! arcane1 Jan 2014 #40

The Warmth of Other Suns, by Isabel Wilkerson n/t Scootaloo Jan 2014 #43

Thanks!!! arcane1 Jan 2014 #48

Actually, that thing was the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee KamaAina Jan 2014 #16

It's not Scootaloo Jan 2014 #24

I pulled that off Wiki KamaAina Jan 2014 #27

Wikipedia's a little schizophrenic on the subject Scootaloo Jan 2014 #29

It doesn't matter. Southern states officially displayed ONE symbol which everyone knew yellowcanine Jan 2014 #108

I had no idea about the dates they were adopted loyalsister Jan 2014 #115

No kidding. And revealing of the true reason for this symbol. yellowcanine Jan 2014 #117

This person is from S. Carolina loyalsister Jan 2014 #119

True meaning is traitorous B Calm Jan 2014 #2

This ^ PeaceNikki Jan 2014 #19

Yep. n/t n2doc Jan 2014 #41

The Flag of Southern Treason so they could keep people as slaves. Bandit Jan 2014 #3

When you say "they" are you referring to the Klan loyalsister Jan 2014 #5

I am speaking of the Confederacy Bandit Jan 2014 #8

I can't defend anyone flying it loyalsister Jan 2014 #54

It's a symbol of hatred, just like a swastika. Waste of time Hoyt Jan 2014 #6

Yep. hunter Jan 2014 #20

Growing up in the south, I loved the stars and bars when I was a kid Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #7

My grandmother used to tell me that it was ok to use the word n****r for similar reasons. JoePhilly Jan 2014 #10

Wow Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #13

I think Hell's Angels are pigs RainDog Jan 2014 #56

As a rider, someone who's had a run in with Hell's Angels, they're scum. Gravitycollapse Jan 2014 #90

"Too ignorant". You missed an O. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #100

What? The infinitive didn't read? Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #111

Me too. bravenak Jan 2014 #67

Where I grew up in the South, I learned early on what obvious hatred that flag symbolized. Hoyt Jan 2014 #30

That's fair Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #33

turn off skynyrd?? RedstDem Jan 2014 #44

They still fly it, and pander to bigots even now for money. That's about as racist as one can be. Hoyt Jan 2014 #49

George Wallace had changed his stance about racial relations Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #80

You can't be serious. He stood in the state university's doorway and told black kids they didn't Hoyt Jan 2014 #81

Did you even read what I posted? Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #82

Old men about to die say all kinds of conciliatory lies. Besides, I've heard that from Hoyt Jan 2014 #84

And men who feel they are about to die Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #85

Shirley Chisholm visited him in the hospital loyalsister Jan 2014 #113

I remember hearing about the Shirley Chisholm for President campaign Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #161

Tom Petty, who campaigned for President Obama, sked14 Jan 2014 #124

At least Petty had the good sense to abandon that racist flag since 1985. Hoyt Jan 2014 #149

Do you have any info on that? sked14 Jan 2014 #151

Read up. One of the REM guys, called him on it. And his fans got upset. Hoyt Jan 2014 #152

Good. sked14 Jan 2014 #155

Some southerners just have to shown the way, and are receptive to it. Hoyt Jan 2014 #158

I got the impression that was an examination of what it meant to be a "rebel". progressoid Jan 2014 #153

Very possible. sked14 Jan 2014 #157

another southerner who hates Lynyrd Skynyrd RainDog Jan 2014 #59

+1000000. Young's Southern Man is one of my favorites. Hoyt Jan 2014 #60

Truth be known... RainDog Jan 2014 #62

I hear you. I just recently got into a facebook war with some right wingers from my youth. Hoyt Jan 2014 #65

when I was a senior in h.s. RainDog Jan 2014 #66

People who fly the Confederate flags are either racist or don't care if they're associated w/ racism Arugula Latte Jan 2014 #73

Or 8 yrs old Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #92

and still defending it when they are (presumably) no longer 8 HERVEPA Jan 2014 #156

A kid's understanding is understandable. What is not understandable is what adults do with it.... yellowcanine Jan 2014 #116

Great posts and great points Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #122

I have no problem with pride in Southern Heritage if we are talking about Southern cuisine, yellowcanine Jan 2014 #136

Ask your friend how she feels about Shankapotomus Jan 2014 #11

Thanks loyalsister Jan 2014 #12

Well... Spider Jerusalem Jan 2014 #14

It's tricky loyalsister Jan 2014 #28

I like the don't tread on me flag. Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #17

Another flag that symbolizes racism, maybe not initially, but it has been usurped by racist tparty. Hoyt Jan 2014 #37

True loyalsister Jan 2014 #51

That one too? 2ndAmForComputers Jan 2014 #76

How often do you see that thing around you? KamaAina Jan 2014 #18

Too much! loyalsister Jan 2014 #23

"Heritage, Not Hate"? baldguy Jan 2014 #21

I'm not sure it works the same. Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #45

But there are still people in Germany who revere the Nazi flag. baldguy Jan 2014 #53

the US could always replicate German laws GRACIEBIRD Jan 2014 #22

I'd support that. Hoyt Jan 2014 #31

You'd support censorship? sked14 Jan 2014 #126

More precisely, I would support levying fines on yahoos waving that symbol of hatred. Hoyt Jan 2014 #127

How about those that espouse racists and bigoted views? sked14 Jan 2014 #129

No, I'd support tattooing Racist AHole on their forehead. Hoyt Jan 2014 #130

Would you support forcibly tattooing that on their forehead? sked14 Jan 2014 #132

Nope not like that. But, the folks that did that . . . . . . deserve something special. Hoyt Jan 2014 #135

One is just as rehensible as the other. sked14 Jan 2014 #142

It's not censorship GRACIEBIRD Jan 2014 #154

Ok, and what are the chances of that actually happening? sked14 Jan 2014 #160

Nope... bobclark86 Jan 2014 #102

No. sked14 Jan 2014 #125

It is a flag of treason and evil. hrmjustin Jan 2014 #25

I see it a lot around here. hollowdweller Jan 2014 #32

It's the flag of traitors RainDog Jan 2014 #34

amen RedstDem Jan 2014 #50

The Stars and Bars are a sign of racial hatred Gothmog Jan 2014 #36

For some reason it's popular in areas of IL, IN, MI, OH, PA, and WV. DemocraticWing Jan 2014 #38

WV WAS the confederacy until it was "split". Just saying. :) 1awake Jan 2014 #47

Even worse. DemocraticWing Jan 2014 #64

I know here in Indiana, it's only the dumb ass racists who fly it. Indiana was a Yankee state B Calm Jan 2014 #69

Indiana might have been a Yankee state during the Civil War, Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #88

There was a lot of strong sympathy for the Confederacy in many of those areas caraher Jan 2014 #94

Most of the people I knew who "waved" it 1awake Jan 2014 #46

I've encountered that before, people who claim they're not racist, but like the symbolism of the Aristus Jan 2014 #52

Not that I disagree with anything you've said... 1awake Jan 2014 #57

For me, it's more important that the question be asked than that it be answered. Aristus Jan 2014 #61

it seemed more like an anti government symbol growing up southern RedstDem Jan 2014 #55

Outside the south, it's a reliable asshole indicator Warpy Jan 2014 #58

Well said! loyalsister Jan 2014 #63

I would say mostly inside of the South also. yellowcanine Jan 2014 #118

It's the flag of traitors. Simple as that. Bonhomme Richard Jan 2014 #68

The final flag flown by The South was white. Ask her if she understands what that means. Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2014 #70

I like the post that called it the Traitor flag. They betrayed the union on point Jan 2014 #71

"They" are all dead. Igel Jan 2014 #72

I agree that language (signs too) meaning is produced by the population involved on point Jan 2014 #91

Have you read "The Tyranny of Words?" loyalsister Jan 2014 #98

Well, it is the Cross of St. Andrew, or the flag of Scotland or even a multiplication symbol until yellowcanine Jan 2014 #128

That flag didn't even become popular until the Dixiecrats used it as a symbol.... Hassin Bin Sober Jan 2014 #74

Was it used only by the KKK and sympathizers since the civil war? loyalsister Jan 2014 #107

Best line I ever heard in response to "heritage, not hate": maggiesfarmer Jan 2014 #75

LOL. And the heritage is one of slavery. nt Deep13 Jan 2014 #78

"What right do I have to make a claim to know...." Deep13 Jan 2014 #77

As so many others have pointed out, SheilaT Jan 2014 #83

"Mutually respectful conversation" with a repuke = you're kidding yourself Corruption Inc Jan 2014 #86

She's not a republican loyalsister Jan 2014 #97

It's a symbol of racism. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #87

It is a symbol of heritage, and a rememberance Sgent Jan 2014 #89

"The history of those symbols cannot be redeemed by what existed before" loyalsister Jan 2014 #99

It is also known as the LOSER FLAG. That's right, they B Calm Jan 2014 #93

Yep, I always call it the "Loser Rag" and suggest that perhaps the white flag of surrender... Tom Ripley Jan 2014 #96

Trouble for the 'Southern Heritage' folks is it doesn't mean just one thing... JCMach1 Jan 2014 #95

It turns my stomach and makes me very angry I see it loyalsister Jan 2014 #104

Symbols have many different meanings, and their meanings can change from person to person. Xyzse Jan 2014 #101

The Confederate flag itself is not fascist but it represents Swede Atlanta Jan 2014 #103

More than one dark period loyalsister Jan 2014 #106

Most people don't care one way or another MO_Moderate Jan 2014 #105

Really? The topic has elicited quite a few replies just here on this one board HangOnKids Jan 2014 #120

Most people MO_Moderate Jan 2014 #121

Those are silly people NOT most people HangOnKids Jan 2014 #123

Do you believe most people of color don't care? thx in advance for your input uponit7771 Jan 2014 #133

Careful there, B Calm Jan 2014 #141

Flag of traitors and losers abelenkpe Jan 2014 #109

To me it represents SEDITION. GeorgeGist Jan 2014 #112

Great Post but my money is on Peyton HangOnKids Jan 2014 #131

Try asking her how many Southern African Americans display the Cross of St. Andrew? yellowcanine Jan 2014 #114

The moment you assume there is a "true meaning", constructive or meaningful discussion is impossible Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2014 #134

That's fair loyalsister Jan 2014 #138

Do you feel the same way about Nazi flags? /nt Marr Jan 2014 #139

No, and the relevant comparison is "German", not "Nazi". Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2014 #140

Not really. Marr Jan 2014 #144

I don't agree. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2014 #146

Flying a Confederate flag is no different, morally speaking, from flying a Nazi flag. Marr Jan 2014 #137

The other meaning is... lame54 Jan 2014 #145

This message was self-deleted by its author mgc1961 Jan 2014 #147

The South seceded over slavery and only over slavery... joeybee12 Jan 2014 #150

was this person black? are you? if not, i find it easy to be polite and go beyond diversity La Lioness Priyanka Jan 2014 #159

I would ask your friend LostOne4Ever Jan 2014 #162