General Discussion

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)

14. Well...

Mon Jan 27, 2014, 07:45 PM

Jan 2014

There was an old graveyard in the town I used to live in that went back to the 1840's. Part of it had a wrought-iron fence around it; that section was the Confederate cemetery, with the graves of Confederate soldiers who'd died in the Battle of Atlanta. About half of the gravestones had no names, just "Unknown".

My great-great-great-grandfather fought for the Confederacy. He enlisted in the Georgia state militia in 1864, when he was 46 and past military age, just before the Battle of Atlanta (he lived in Clayton County, right in the path of Sherman's march to the sea). I can't really blame him for that; in the same situation? I'd probably do the same thing myself. I think about that, and think about all those graves, some of whom died with their families never knowing what happened to them, and wonder how many had similar stories; just found themselves victims of circumstance forced into a situation where they took up arms to defend their homes against an invading army. And I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of Southerners may have family stories about old men and boys going off to fight and not coming back.

Was the Confederacy wrong? Unquestionably. But it's quite possible to see why some people may see the Confederate flag as a symbol of heritage with other meanings than explicit racism.

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A conversation about the Confederate flag... [View all] loyalsister Jan 2014 OP

Which confederate flag? Scootaloo Jan 2014 #1

I wasn't aware that there were so many loyalsister Jan 2014 #4

I'm from Alabama, and a big critic of "southern culture" Scootaloo Jan 2014 #9

Good points loyalsister Jan 2014 #15

Well, as Missouri wasn't part of the confederacy... Scootaloo Jan 2014 #26

"Missouri wasn't part of the confederacy" loyalsister Jan 2014 #42

And much of southern Missouri, at least, would have preferred to have joined the Confederacy Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #79

True loyalsister Jan 2014 #110

A phone call from Abraham Lincoln? Foolacious Jan 2014 #143

Nope it was an email loyalsister Jan 2014 #148

I first encountered that cartoon in James Loewen's excellent book "Lies My Teacher Told Me" arcane1 Jan 2014 #35

That is indeed a damn interesting book Scootaloo Jan 2014 #39

That sounds like a fascinating topic too! arcane1 Jan 2014 #40

The Warmth of Other Suns, by Isabel Wilkerson n/t Scootaloo Jan 2014 #43

Thanks!!! arcane1 Jan 2014 #48

Actually, that thing was the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee KamaAina Jan 2014 #16

It's not Scootaloo Jan 2014 #24

I pulled that off Wiki KamaAina Jan 2014 #27

Wikipedia's a little schizophrenic on the subject Scootaloo Jan 2014 #29

It doesn't matter. Southern states officially displayed ONE symbol which everyone knew yellowcanine Jan 2014 #108

I had no idea about the dates they were adopted loyalsister Jan 2014 #115

No kidding. And revealing of the true reason for this symbol. yellowcanine Jan 2014 #117

This person is from S. Carolina loyalsister Jan 2014 #119

True meaning is traitorous B Calm Jan 2014 #2

This ^ PeaceNikki Jan 2014 #19

Yep. n/t n2doc Jan 2014 #41

The Flag of Southern Treason so they could keep people as slaves. Bandit Jan 2014 #3

When you say "they" are you referring to the Klan loyalsister Jan 2014 #5

I am speaking of the Confederacy Bandit Jan 2014 #8

I can't defend anyone flying it loyalsister Jan 2014 #54

It's a symbol of hatred, just like a swastika. Waste of time Hoyt Jan 2014 #6

Yep. hunter Jan 2014 #20

Growing up in the south, I loved the stars and bars when I was a kid Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #7

My grandmother used to tell me that it was ok to use the word n****r for similar reasons. JoePhilly Jan 2014 #10

Wow Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #13

I think Hell's Angels are pigs RainDog Jan 2014 #56

As a rider, someone who's had a run in with Hell's Angels, they're scum. Gravitycollapse Jan 2014 #90

"Too ignorant". You missed an O. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #100

What? The infinitive didn't read? Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #111

Me too. bravenak Jan 2014 #67

Where I grew up in the South, I learned early on what obvious hatred that flag symbolized. Hoyt Jan 2014 #30

That's fair Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #33

turn off skynyrd?? RedstDem Jan 2014 #44

They still fly it, and pander to bigots even now for money. That's about as racist as one can be. Hoyt Jan 2014 #49

George Wallace had changed his stance about racial relations Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #80

You can't be serious. He stood in the state university's doorway and told black kids they didn't Hoyt Jan 2014 #81

Did you even read what I posted? Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #82

Old men about to die say all kinds of conciliatory lies. Besides, I've heard that from Hoyt Jan 2014 #84

And men who feel they are about to die Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #85

Shirley Chisholm visited him in the hospital loyalsister Jan 2014 #113

I remember hearing about the Shirley Chisholm for President campaign Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #161

Tom Petty, who campaigned for President Obama, sked14 Jan 2014 #124

At least Petty had the good sense to abandon that racist flag since 1985. Hoyt Jan 2014 #149

Do you have any info on that? sked14 Jan 2014 #151

Read up. One of the REM guys, called him on it. And his fans got upset. Hoyt Jan 2014 #152

Good. sked14 Jan 2014 #155

Some southerners just have to shown the way, and are receptive to it. Hoyt Jan 2014 #158

I got the impression that was an examination of what it meant to be a "rebel". progressoid Jan 2014 #153

Very possible. sked14 Jan 2014 #157

another southerner who hates Lynyrd Skynyrd RainDog Jan 2014 #59

+1000000. Young's Southern Man is one of my favorites. Hoyt Jan 2014 #60

Truth be known... RainDog Jan 2014 #62

I hear you. I just recently got into a facebook war with some right wingers from my youth. Hoyt Jan 2014 #65

when I was a senior in h.s. RainDog Jan 2014 #66

People who fly the Confederate flags are either racist or don't care if they're associated w/ racism Arugula Latte Jan 2014 #73

Or 8 yrs old Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #92

and still defending it when they are (presumably) no longer 8 HERVEPA Jan 2014 #156

A kid's understanding is understandable. What is not understandable is what adults do with it.... yellowcanine Jan 2014 #116

Great posts and great points Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #122

I have no problem with pride in Southern Heritage if we are talking about Southern cuisine, yellowcanine Jan 2014 #136

Ask your friend how she feels about Shankapotomus Jan 2014 #11

Thanks loyalsister Jan 2014 #12

Well... Spider Jerusalem Jan 2014 #14

It's tricky loyalsister Jan 2014 #28

I like the don't tread on me flag. Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #17

Another flag that symbolizes racism, maybe not initially, but it has been usurped by racist tparty. Hoyt Jan 2014 #37

True loyalsister Jan 2014 #51

That one too? 2ndAmForComputers Jan 2014 #76

How often do you see that thing around you? KamaAina Jan 2014 #18

Too much! loyalsister Jan 2014 #23

"Heritage, Not Hate"? baldguy Jan 2014 #21

I'm not sure it works the same. Boom Sound 416 Jan 2014 #45

But there are still people in Germany who revere the Nazi flag. baldguy Jan 2014 #53

the US could always replicate German laws GRACIEBIRD Jan 2014 #22

I'd support that. Hoyt Jan 2014 #31

You'd support censorship? sked14 Jan 2014 #126

More precisely, I would support levying fines on yahoos waving that symbol of hatred. Hoyt Jan 2014 #127

How about those that espouse racists and bigoted views? sked14 Jan 2014 #129

No, I'd support tattooing Racist AHole on their forehead. Hoyt Jan 2014 #130

Would you support forcibly tattooing that on their forehead? sked14 Jan 2014 #132

Nope not like that. But, the folks that did that . . . . . . deserve something special. Hoyt Jan 2014 #135

One is just as rehensible as the other. sked14 Jan 2014 #142

It's not censorship GRACIEBIRD Jan 2014 #154

Ok, and what are the chances of that actually happening? sked14 Jan 2014 #160

Nope... bobclark86 Jan 2014 #102

No. sked14 Jan 2014 #125

It is a flag of treason and evil. hrmjustin Jan 2014 #25

I see it a lot around here. hollowdweller Jan 2014 #32

It's the flag of traitors RainDog Jan 2014 #34

amen RedstDem Jan 2014 #50

The Stars and Bars are a sign of racial hatred Gothmog Jan 2014 #36

For some reason it's popular in areas of IL, IN, MI, OH, PA, and WV. DemocraticWing Jan 2014 #38

WV WAS the confederacy until it was "split". Just saying. :) 1awake Jan 2014 #47

Even worse. DemocraticWing Jan 2014 #64

I know here in Indiana, it's only the dumb ass racists who fly it. Indiana was a Yankee state B Calm Jan 2014 #69

Indiana might have been a Yankee state during the Civil War, Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #88

There was a lot of strong sympathy for the Confederacy in many of those areas caraher Jan 2014 #94

Most of the people I knew who "waved" it 1awake Jan 2014 #46

I've encountered that before, people who claim they're not racist, but like the symbolism of the Aristus Jan 2014 #52

Not that I disagree with anything you've said... 1awake Jan 2014 #57

For me, it's more important that the question be asked than that it be answered. Aristus Jan 2014 #61

it seemed more like an anti government symbol growing up southern RedstDem Jan 2014 #55

Outside the south, it's a reliable asshole indicator Warpy Jan 2014 #58

Well said! loyalsister Jan 2014 #63

I would say mostly inside of the South also. yellowcanine Jan 2014 #118

It's the flag of traitors. Simple as that. Bonhomme Richard Jan 2014 #68

The final flag flown by The South was white. Ask her if she understands what that means. Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2014 #70

I like the post that called it the Traitor flag. They betrayed the union on point Jan 2014 #71

"They" are all dead. Igel Jan 2014 #72

I agree that language (signs too) meaning is produced by the population involved on point Jan 2014 #91

Have you read "The Tyranny of Words?" loyalsister Jan 2014 #98

Well, it is the Cross of St. Andrew, or the flag of Scotland or even a multiplication symbol until yellowcanine Jan 2014 #128

That flag didn't even become popular until the Dixiecrats used it as a symbol.... Hassin Bin Sober Jan 2014 #74

Was it used only by the KKK and sympathizers since the civil war? loyalsister Jan 2014 #107

Best line I ever heard in response to "heritage, not hate": maggiesfarmer Jan 2014 #75

LOL. And the heritage is one of slavery. nt Deep13 Jan 2014 #78

"What right do I have to make a claim to know...." Deep13 Jan 2014 #77

As so many others have pointed out, SheilaT Jan 2014 #83

"Mutually respectful conversation" with a repuke = you're kidding yourself Corruption Inc Jan 2014 #86

She's not a republican loyalsister Jan 2014 #97

It's a symbol of racism. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #87

It is a symbol of heritage, and a rememberance Sgent Jan 2014 #89

"The history of those symbols cannot be redeemed by what existed before" loyalsister Jan 2014 #99

It is also known as the LOSER FLAG. That's right, they B Calm Jan 2014 #93

Yep, I always call it the "Loser Rag" and suggest that perhaps the white flag of surrender... Tom Ripley Jan 2014 #96

Trouble for the 'Southern Heritage' folks is it doesn't mean just one thing... JCMach1 Jan 2014 #95

It turns my stomach and makes me very angry I see it loyalsister Jan 2014 #104

Symbols have many different meanings, and their meanings can change from person to person. Xyzse Jan 2014 #101

The Confederate flag itself is not fascist but it represents Swede Atlanta Jan 2014 #103

More than one dark period loyalsister Jan 2014 #106

Most people don't care one way or another MO_Moderate Jan 2014 #105

Really? The topic has elicited quite a few replies just here on this one board HangOnKids Jan 2014 #120

Most people MO_Moderate Jan 2014 #121

Those are silly people NOT most people HangOnKids Jan 2014 #123

Do you believe most people of color don't care? thx in advance for your input uponit7771 Jan 2014 #133

Careful there, B Calm Jan 2014 #141

Flag of traitors and losers abelenkpe Jan 2014 #109

To me it represents SEDITION. GeorgeGist Jan 2014 #112

Great Post but my money is on Peyton HangOnKids Jan 2014 #131

Try asking her how many Southern African Americans display the Cross of St. Andrew? yellowcanine Jan 2014 #114

The moment you assume there is a "true meaning", constructive or meaningful discussion is impossible Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2014 #134

That's fair loyalsister Jan 2014 #138

Do you feel the same way about Nazi flags? /nt Marr Jan 2014 #139

No, and the relevant comparison is "German", not "Nazi". Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2014 #140

Not really. Marr Jan 2014 #144

I don't agree. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2014 #146

Flying a Confederate flag is no different, morally speaking, from flying a Nazi flag. Marr Jan 2014 #137

The other meaning is... lame54 Jan 2014 #145

This message was self-deleted by its author mgc1961 Jan 2014 #147

The South seceded over slavery and only over slavery... joeybee12 Jan 2014 #150

was this person black? are you? if not, i find it easy to be polite and go beyond diversity La Lioness Priyanka Jan 2014 #159

I would ask your friend LostOne4Ever Jan 2014 #162