General Discussion

Silent3

(15,909 posts)

72. What does it mean to "discount" or not?

Tue Feb 4, 2014, 12:36 AM

Feb 2014

In a court of law, if there is no tangible evidence, just an accusation that could be false (either a lie or a false memory), "reasonable doubt" applies, and the only correct verdict is "not guilty". Does that mean you've "discounted" the possibility that abuse took place? No, you've simply hit a limit what can be done about your suspicions.

In the court of public opinion, or in the private court you hold in your own mind, you can certainly choose to have a weaker or stronger standard of "reasonable doubt" than applies in an actual courtroom for what you think may or may not have happened in a given case. Nothing short of adamant insistence on the complete innocence of the accused, however, with no room left for doubt, amounts to "discounting" an accusation.

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Why your childhood memories may not actually have happened. [View all] Kurska Feb 2014 OP

thx for the voice of reason Vattel Feb 2014 #1

interesting.... mike_c Feb 2014 #2

Very much so, false memories can come from dreams. They can even come from media like movies. Kurska Feb 2014 #6

Just as Ronald Reagan did. nt tblue37 Feb 2014 #64

hallucinations are a fact RussBLib Feb 2014 #111

Most people don't understand what memories really are. Xithras Feb 2014 #130

Interesting. tammywammy Feb 2014 #134

yup, the brain models the world we experience in real time... mike_c Feb 2014 #139

Our mind and our senses aren't always what they think they are. Common Sense Party Feb 2014 #3

I counted 15 but may have missed one when the person in the fake fur suit got in the way. There w uppityperson Feb 2014 #7

that was my response the first time i watched that several years ago.. frylock Feb 2014 #65

How does anybody not notice the gorilla? TroglodyteScholar Feb 2014 #11

Nope. I can't remember the stat, but I think it was something like 40-50% of those Common Sense Party Feb 2014 #18

Guess my focus is lacking! TroglodyteScholar Feb 2014 #19

When I first saw it, I didn't see it. Neoma Feb 2014 #21

I didn't either. tammywammy Feb 2014 #69

what was the gender breakdown? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #77

I have no idea. Common Sense Party Feb 2014 #78

I was just thinking or wondering rather...would men or women be more or less likely to see the VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #81

It's a good question. As a guy, I know I am woefully oblivious to changes in detail Common Sense Party Feb 2014 #87

an interesting Social Experiment indeed! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #89

Arjuna Seeing The Bird's Eye: KittyWampus Feb 2014 #125

What about the version of that story... TroglodyteScholar Feb 2014 #126

Thanks for adding to that. It will certainly get a laugh during our study group discussions. KittyWampus Feb 2014 #148

A laugh's a laugh TroglodyteScholar Feb 2014 #149

This is a wonderful explanation TlalocW Feb 2014 #12

got the fifteen passes, may not have seen the gorilla if someone had not posted it before i watched. loli phabay Feb 2014 #22

That is such a good example. El_Johns Feb 2014 #103

You had me until your last 2 sentences. Unfortunately, the nature of hidden abuse is that uppityperson Feb 2014 #4

+1. n/t pnwmom Feb 2014 #26

But then what do you do with the allegations? Igel Feb 2014 #45

OP defines what was meant by "solid evidence" further downthread. Take all allegations uppityperson Feb 2014 #47

+1 Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #58

What does it mean to "discount" or not? Silent3 Feb 2014 #72

To me, discount means not believing a person when they say what happened. Or not believing it uppityperson Feb 2014 #84

If you call anything but absolute trust, with little or no room left for doubt, "discounting"... Silent3 Feb 2014 #85

Dichotomous thinking. uppityperson Feb 2014 #95

I asked, and what you answered is what sounded dichotomous. Silent3 Feb 2014 #97

+1000000 Jamastiene Feb 2014 #46

That's why priests got away w/it for 2000 years... alittlelark Feb 2014 #83

But then how can the vindictive adult involved treestar Feb 2014 #5

The simple answer is the more authority the person has the easier it is to do. Kurska Feb 2014 #10

Likely "Ignore-worthy," Kurska. 1000words Feb 2014 #8

I had a situation where foster parents convinced the children no_hypocrisy Feb 2014 #9

my daughter often adamantly states that she has been to places that she has not loli phabay Feb 2014 #13

On the other hand, this woman that everyone is certain is either a liar or deluded, may have Squinch Feb 2014 #14

That is the point Kurska Feb 2014 #15

So all those boys who were under the impression that they were molested by priests Squinch Feb 2014 #20

take a step back, you believe her and thats okay but it clouds your response much the same as loli phabay Feb 2014 #24

No actually, I said absolutely nothing of the sort. Kurska Feb 2014 #25

What do you mean by "solid evidence"? uppityperson Feb 2014 #27

I would say solid evidence of long ago abuse could be a lot of things. Kurska Feb 2014 #28

Thank you, that makes more sense. You may want to edit your op because without uppityperson Feb 2014 #34

That obviously is true for a conviction BainsBane Feb 2014 #54

What if there is only one victim? blue neen Feb 2014 #70

And yet, in your OP, you never once raised the possibility that this woman's memory - which was Squinch Feb 2014 #29

That is probably because I never mentioned her directly in my OP. Kurska Feb 2014 #30

You may not be implying that, but others most certainly are. kcr Feb 2014 #32

Ah, just random thoughts about false childhood memories, nothing to do with the case that everyone Squinch Feb 2014 #33

I never said it wasn't related to the ongoing discussions on DU. Kurska Feb 2014 #37

So you're not taking sides, but your comment is that childhood memories are likely not true. Squinch Feb 2014 #39

"your comment is that childhood memories are likely not true." swing and miss Kurska Feb 2014 #41

I think we all know what you are actually saying. It's not that hard to grasp. Squinch Feb 2014 #43

Um, okay let me try Kurska Feb 2014 #44

Some people have just made up their minds and anyone who disagrees is supporting pedophelia. cui bono Feb 2014 #60

Wow. You really are incapable of an honest discussion joeglow3 Feb 2014 #90

Someone is putting well though out ideas about why one party in this conflict is wrong. Squinch Feb 2014 #116

What on earth am I "wrong" about? Kurska Feb 2014 #136

Thank you. I was really offended. Walk away Feb 2014 #35

It seems a bit disingenuous, doesn't it? Squinch Feb 2014 #36

Hah, well it appears it doesn't matter what I actually say. Kurska Feb 2014 #40

Slate and Scientific American BainsBane Feb 2014 #56

I included links that would be readily understood by most people and provide a general introduction. Kurska Feb 2014 #59

What do you have to see about the frequency of child abuse vs. the rarity of false accusations? BainsBane Feb 2014 #66

What impact do you believe those should have on our courts joeglow3 Feb 2014 #91

"It means that we should be cautious when we examine such allegations and nothing more or less." JTFrog Feb 2014 #129

Wow that is a brutal selective quoting. Why on earth didn't you quote the ENTIRE SENTENCE. Kurska Feb 2014 #131

They'd probably love to have you. n/t JTFrog Feb 2014 #132

So not going to defend that? Kurska Feb 2014 #133

Even discounting your obviously biased selective editing mythology Feb 2014 #140

I can't believe this forum right now. I wish I hadn't come back into GD and seen this, and the other redqueen Feb 2014 #74

I feel certain I haven't. But they're all doing a bang up job about Squinch Feb 2014 #114

I'm sorry you find well researched science to be festering sewage Kurska Feb 2014 #147

she may have, problem is we dont know for certain and thats the issue loli phabay Feb 2014 #17

I haven't seen anyone claim to be "certain" of that tkmorris Feb 2014 #61

Imagine my disappointment that you don't take me seriously. Squinch Feb 2014 #63

My favorite false memory DamnYankeeInHouston Feb 2014 #16

I have a very clear childhood memory that could never have happened.. likesmountains 52 Feb 2014 #23

So clearly, the only thing we can conclude then is kitchens never existed in your childhood. kcr Feb 2014 #38

The other problem with the false memories idea is that she first reported it right after it had Squinch Feb 2014 #42

There was such a case in a private daycare in the '80s. Igel Feb 2014 #48

The McMartin case bore no resemblance to this case whatsoever. Squinch Feb 2014 #50

"assumption that Dylan Farrow is either lying, delusional, or deranged." No you're wrong Kurska Feb 2014 #76

And here is the proof that you are not getting this concept: Squinch Feb 2014 #115

I have never once discounted the possibility that it happened. Kurska Feb 2014 #119

I have read your posts. And I think you do not understand how slanted Squinch Feb 2014 #121

Okay here is an idea Kurska Feb 2014 #122

I just know that if someone asked me if this had happened I would say yes.. likesmountains 52 Feb 2014 #57

There are many people who have been raped and abused in their childhood.... Walk away Feb 2014 #31

Yes. Igel Feb 2014 #49

+1 n/t Silent3 Feb 2014 #71

Why that guy might really be a child abuser BainsBane Feb 2014 #51

Yes. Far more likely than someone taking the trouble treestar Feb 2014 #80

Something very disturbing about these two statements from your post. rgbecker Feb 2014 #88

Predators smell vulnerability BainsBane Feb 2014 #99

And yet there are children who were most definitely sexually abused and when they finally decide justiceischeap Feb 2014 #52

I have a false memory BainsBane Feb 2014 #53

I see a few separate issues with this whole Woody Allen thing gollygee Feb 2014 #55

I think this would make a fantastic OP Kurska Feb 2014 #62

Woody Allen is pedohpile creep, get over it Puzzledtraveller Feb 2014 #67

Thanks for stopping by :) n/t Kurska Feb 2014 #75

I had a severe bike accident as a kid. I very clearly remember that. Initech Feb 2014 #68

I believe in evidence, logic and proof. LostOne4Ever Feb 2014 #73

Now, I heard a story once defacto7 Feb 2014 #79

That has nothing to do with false memories gollygee Feb 2014 #86

Uhhh, yes it does. defacto7 Feb 2014 #107

No gollygee Feb 2014 #113

I take your point. defacto7 Feb 2014 #123

Thanks to you also for wading through all this sewage in order to try to shed some light. nt redqueen Feb 2014 #124

This message was self-deleted by its author Kurska Feb 2014 #145

I'm curious Kurska Feb 2014 #146

I have several siblings. When we get together, we talk about our childhood memories. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #82

Yeah, and on the other end of the spectrum, Le Taz Hot Feb 2014 #92

I'm so sorry you went through that! JNelson6563 Feb 2014 #94

'Preciate that, JN. Le Taz Hot Feb 2014 #96

You are exactly right about predators & how they operate. JNelson6563 Feb 2014 #98

What is this OP really about? Vashta Nerada Feb 2014 #93

Yeah right. Kurska Feb 2014 #100

So when I remember that I was fondled by a relative when I was a kid... Vashta Nerada Feb 2014 #101

Did you actually read my OP before you got offended? Kurska Feb 2014 #102

I did. Vashta Nerada Feb 2014 #104

It does suggest that SOME adults who remember being abused as children have false memories. Kurska Feb 2014 #106

Bad timing on the OP kcr Feb 2014 #135

Vashta, Squinch Feb 2014 #117

Thank you Squinch. Vashta Nerada Feb 2014 #118

My take from these Squinch Feb 2014 #120

A friend is going through a very horrible and nasty divorce and custody battle Horse with no Name Feb 2014 #105

Dylan's experiences were documented at the time. So there's less chance than with most of us. pnwmom Feb 2014 #108

The headline is link-bait Exciting Trip Feb 2014 #109

Um, I wrote this OP and I'm in no way affiliated with anyone linked to Kurska Feb 2014 #110

Still link bait Exciting Trip Feb 2014 #143

Personally I find memory to be thrilling, especially how it is actually a reconstructive process. Kurska Feb 2014 #144

... SidDithers Feb 2014 #141

Read this: morningfog Feb 2014 #142

And then there are the memoris that did happen and Skidmore Feb 2014 #112

Did anyone watch, "just Ask My Children" on Lifetime Movies? sox-63 Feb 2014 #127

Sorry to disappoint, but my life happened. I've got witnesses. WinkyDink Feb 2014 #128

rec MerryBlooms Feb 2014 #137

I'm sorry, but you appear to have missed the point n/t Kurska Feb 2014 #138