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struggle4progress

(125,807 posts)
40. I merely urged you to review the actual court documents in the Assange extradition case, before
Thu Feb 6, 2014, 03:47 PM
Feb 2014

summarizing the facts of that case. It remains clear you have not done so, since you continue to misrepresent the issues brought before the UK courts

The extradition case concerned whether the UK should extradite Assange to Sweden to face prosecution for rape. That, naturally, did not involve any effort by the UK courts to determine whether the sexual allegations were true: the courts merely addressed the question whether Assange should be extradited to face judicial process in Sweden. Nor have I ever taken any position whatsoever on the merits of the sexual allegations about Assange

In the course of the extradition case, Assange and his lawyers chose not to argue forward-extradition in the UK courts. They similarly chose not to argue that political considerations, international pressure, or other improper motives lay behind the Swedish arrest warrants. That was their choice, and the obvious conclusion will be that they made such choice because no real evidence supports the view that forward-extradition is possible or the view that improper motives lie behind the Swedish arrest warrants

In particular, Assange and his lawyers chose not to argue in the UK courts that Assange faced prosecution in the US, and again the obvious conclusion will be that they so chose because no real evidence supports that theory. I myself have never taken any position whatsoever on the question, whether Assange did or did not commit prosecutable crimes against the United States: I have, in fact, here and elsewhere, avoided any and all speculation on that question, for it turns on facts unavailable to me

As I told you immediately upthread, I regard the enormous energy devoted to the spewing of pure unadulterated bullshit about the Assange extradition case as one of the saddest features of the saga, since IMO bullshit prevents people from thinking clearly and accurately -- and hence typically has the effect of maintaining the status quo

One example of such bullshit is the claim that Swedish prosecution of Assange would represent an attack on the freedom of the press. Sweden has, in fact, some of the most generous journalist-protection laws in the world: current law prevents prosecution for disclosures, and public opinion strongly supports the current law. In this regard, the situation in Sweden is much more favorable to Assange than (say) the situation in the UK

Of course, it would be very interesting if you actually had CIA documents that showed the agency planning to involve Assange in a sex scandal. Your claim to have seen such documents, however, is tellingly made without evidence. If you had such documents, would not you want to publicize them?

The linking of Sweden to the extraordinary rendition scandals of the Bush II era, as an excuse for Assange to avoid Sweden, is yet another example of crude mind-fucking bullshit

First the facts:

It is true that, around December 2001, Sweden repatriated Ahmed Agiza and Muhammad al-Zery to Egypt in violation of Swedish law, where they were tortured. But when the facts came to light, there was public outrage in Sweden, together with official apologies to the victims and monetary restitution for the wrong. Sweden's behavior there, unfortunately, was no worse than the behavior of many other countries. In the Anglophone world, Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom are known to have engaged in extraordinary renditions: all three have paid monetary restitution to victims. In the rest of Europe, Albania, Austria, Belgium, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Lithuania, Macedonia, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Spain, and Turkey are known to have engaged in extraordinary renditions: other than Sweden, to my knowledge, none have paid victims any monetary restitution, though Germany, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Romania, and Spain have conducted national investigations into the matter

Let us now ask, how concerned was Assange about this? He set up Wikileaks in Iceland in 2006, some years after various sources first began publishing allegations that Iceland was involved in the extraordinary renditions scandals, and he remained established there for some years. When Assange founded Wikileaks, the Swedish cases were already well-known by then having come to light somewhat earlier. Four years later in 2010, Assange traveled to Sweden, hoping to move Wikileaks there, and applied for permanent residency: by then, the Swedish cases had been public knowledge for more than five years, but this apparently did not matter to Assange at the time. Allegations regarding UK involvement in extraordinary rendition began to surface by 2005. UK involvement in the extraordinary rendition program was common knowledge, and the subject of regular news reports, for several years before Assange fled from Sweden to the UK in 2010 to avoid prosecution. Again, this apparently did not matter to Assange at the time














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Seems like good advice. iemitsu Feb 2014 #1
Agree...What is the Purpose...it's just to Jail Him...without Interview about the Charges! KoKo Feb 2014 #15
No one confines St Julian to the embassy: he went there voluntarily, jumping bail in the process, struggle4progress Feb 2014 #21
Did you know he has been texting with one of the women who has told him sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #26
Unfortunately, sabrina, in my experience, you are an extraordinarily unreliable source: much of struggle4progress Feb 2014 #31
Unfortunately if you came here to learn, you made very little attempt to sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #32
Well said... SidDithers Feb 2014 #42
"St Julian" Cha Feb 2014 #28
Ecuador should just find better digs...maybe they can find something MADem Feb 2014 #29
Well you don't have a bias. "St Julian"? Matariki Feb 2014 #43
Do feel free to provide your own attempt at unbiased fact-based discussion struggle4progress Feb 2014 #44
He can walk out whenever he wants to hack89 Feb 2014 #36
Yup. What most of the world has been saying for a couple years now riderinthestorm Feb 2014 #2
What's the point in that? reusrename Feb 2014 #3
The point is that the interview with Assange will allow the prosecutor to determine Egalitarian Thug Feb 2014 #4
They have already said they will indict him hack89 Feb 2014 #5
Retired Swedish district prosecutor Rolf Hillegren begs to differ: reorg Feb 2014 #64
The unretired prosecutors appear to disagree with him hack89 Feb 2014 #70
Sure, but that's never been the question, has it? reusrename Feb 2014 #6
Sure - if Assange promises to surrender if they decide to indict him. hack89 Feb 2014 #7
Actually, I think he already has agreed to that, if they promise not to rendition him. reusrename Feb 2014 #8
The Swedes can't promise that hack89 Feb 2014 #9
I don't know if a judge in Sweden has the power to rendition him or not. reusrename Feb 2014 #10
No he will not be renditioned hack89 Feb 2014 #11
The magistrates in the UK wrestled with this question for quite a while, before folding. reusrename Feb 2014 #12
You have confused extradition with rendition hack89 Feb 2014 #13
It is delusional to think that I am confused. reusrename Feb 2014 #14
"Behind closed doors" ie in secrecy hack89 Feb 2014 #16
I'm sort of losing the thread of your argument here. reusrename Feb 2014 #17
We are talking about the Swedish government hack89 Feb 2014 #33
What makes me so sure is a very simple and obvious fact. reusrename Feb 2014 #38
But it suits the US better to have Assange where he is hack89 Feb 2014 #41
No. Assange's lawyers could have made that forward-rendition argument in the UK courts but struggle4progress Feb 2014 #20
Neither Assange nor his lawyers are signatories to the UN Charter. reusrename Feb 2014 #22
You obviously don't know what "non-refoulement" means struggle4progress Feb 2014 #24
Let me guess. reusrename Feb 2014 #25
St Julian has already said repeatedly that he won't leave the Sanctuary of Blessed Ecuador struggle4progress Feb 2014 #18
It isn't just a sweeping theory. It seems to be reality. reusrename Feb 2014 #23
It is clear you have not bothered to study the available documents. struggle4progress Feb 2014 #27
Look, I think that I understand your perspective, I just disagree. reusrename Feb 2014 #37
I merely urged you to review the actual court documents in the Assange extradition case, before struggle4progress Feb 2014 #40
Crude mind fucking bullshit? reusrename Feb 2014 #45
Well, it certainly doesn't seem to be helping you think clearly struggle4progress Feb 2014 #46
Lerp! reusrename Feb 2014 #47
"No one who disagrees with me has any character, honesty, or seriousness" struggle4progress Feb 2014 #53
"The Swedes are in bed with the CIA"... Spider Jerusalem Feb 2014 #52
It isn't all that complicated. reusrename Feb 2014 #55
Ignoring the obvious Spider Jerusalem Feb 2014 #58
It's a political question. reusrename Feb 2014 #61
So why Sweden? Spider Jerusalem Feb 2014 #65
Ya got me. reusrename Feb 2014 #66
thank you for your Cha Feb 2014 #30
Given that Europe's willing accomplices obeyed the US request MannyGoldstein Feb 2014 #35
Paranoid hallucinations don't improve our understanding of the world struggle4progress Feb 2014 #39
Denied *overflight* into France, Spain, Italy, and Portugal MannyGoldstein Feb 2014 #48
1. Stated reason for landing: faulty fuel gauge struggle4progress Feb 2014 #49
They ran out of gas! reusrename Feb 2014 #57
I provided several links: it's not my fault if you refuse to read struggle4progress Feb 2014 #62
It's not my problem that you don't understand how planes fly. reusrename Feb 2014 #63
Here's the simplest explanation, requiring no paranoid hallucinations: struggle4progress Feb 2014 #67
Would you please stop with the lie about claims of a faulty fuel gauge. reusrename Feb 2014 #68
Anyone interested, in what I actually wrote, should read my posts struggle4progress Feb 2014 #69
2. Denial of refueling at Lisbon: struggle4progress Feb 2014 #50
3. Spanish apology: struggle4progress Feb 2014 #51
So after the plane landed, Portugal and Spain said it was a misunderstanding, France MannyGoldstein Feb 2014 #54
Portugal and Spain's "apologies" were "we regret any misunderstanding/inconvenience but struggle4progress Feb 2014 #56
France admitted a delay in allowing the airspace request, but it may make sense struggle4progress Feb 2014 #59
Austria denied attempting to board the plane struggle4progress Feb 2014 #60
Not this again Spider Jerusalem Feb 2014 #19
Right... Lost_Count Feb 2014 #34
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