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In reply to the discussion: Same Dog, Different Owner [View all]jtuck004
(15,882 posts)31. Certainly. You can log on to
http://www.montanaspayneutertaskforce.org/ for starters, and be sure to look at
the pdf near the bottom of this page
http://www.montanaspayneutertaskforce.org/statistically-speaking/
with previous years stats.
Read around the site - lots of info.
Years ago there was a terrible dog overpopulation problem in an area of the Blackfeet Nation where the people had nearly nothing in resources. Instead of killing them, they borrowed a garage, got a vet to come in with a helper to do their part and provide the medical guidance, and the people, a LOT of 5-7th grade kids as well as adults did everything else. After killing the really sick animals, and these events where owners get some resources and power so they can solve their own problem, they did. Over a bit of time strays just disappeared. Dog bites dropped off. New dogs were spayed or neutered somehow, even after the event, something that had really never happened before. Later they decided they needed, and started their own animal control. These events have been repeated it scores of times across dozens of years and in different areas, with other expanding it out to the state, and other efforts elsewhere. The further it gets from the original, sometimes, the more it turns into do-gooder puppy huggers doing something FOR people instead of LIKE them, (something you have to guard against). There is some efficiency in that, but it kills the spirit and respect, and might actually not do the job as well. There was a spirit in those early ones that is the key to this, and a LARGE part of that is getting the right age kids in a position where they are hands on. (hint: they are magic).
Get the older ones to scrub instruments in between surgeries and help with animal handling. It's very good for them.
With the kids involved in large numbers, a few adults, and a vet and tech who are used to this model, each pair of vet/tech can spay or neuter roughly 40 dogs a day - a lot of it is technique and movement. Very hard to get such a number and variety to practice on in private practice AND get someone else to pick up the bills, so it serves as a great training ground too. Good surgeries, minimal impact on the animals, in and out so hardly any blood, results that stand up to any veterinary clinic - because these are done by licensed vets who practice every day. We even set up extra tables and invite visiting vets who come by to pull up a table and do some.
I spoke to the Vet association at the invitation of their president, and in my conversations with others nearly all of them supported it strongly. (We had an "Event" here, and had a vet who had already made her displeasure known marched in during the event with a video camera to gather evidence. She was a really smart person, nice lady, and by the end of that was offering us the use of her autoclave, getting tips from one of our surgeons, and I think talking about equipment purchases from another state). They make more money on well dogs anyway, and this produces a substantial increase in the well dog pool in the area, so it can help the rest of their business as well.
The COMMUNITY that is generated in one of these is incredible, and crucial. W/o that it just becomes a low-budget spay/neuter clinic. That's fine, but I don't know that we need another 30 or 40 years of basically the same result nationwide, despite how much blood, sweat, tears (lots of tears) and spirit is plowed into what we are doing to tell us we need to do something else.
One of the biggest problem in spay/neuter is not getting enough, it's getting the right ones. Nearly everyone who comes in is low-hanging fruit - the hard ones are still at home, and they need other methods to entice them out. You will break your city trying to mandate it, because these people live their lives laughing at people in uniform trying to make them do things. You have to respect them and welcome them. It's a much different philosophy. But it's very cool when the 5th grader brings the crotchety old neighbor guy in with his dogs, something he swore he would never do. You get the dog-fighter kid who thinks his dog is the toughest one "on the res". You get a LOT of really great people who you will never ever meet on the other side of a counter or badge.
The greatest resistance, even hate mail,
came from shelters and a spay/neuter clinic. Was just a distraction though, so went on.
After I thought I had sufficient info I started a non profit and wrote a grant to get some money, talked with vets, found a really good person to rely on who knew about these events. Then I started attending community events around and talking to people. At this health fair in a small native nation area near here I met their principal, smart woman, got it instantly, and cared about the mission. She helped get everyone else together and they made this happen. In the school gym. It was great. We did roughly 140 animals, mostly dogs (30 or so cats maybe, in 2 days.
I went back to interview them about the impact, and months later they were still talking about this. Animal control there historically means they either drive the dog somewhere or shoot it in the woods (not unusual in a lot of rural and even suburban areas even today). For the next year they didn't shoot any, which had not happened in years. Dog bites dropped off, and many of the stray dogs didn't do that any longer. They were, to a person, wanting to do this again, but so far it hasn't happened.
With a bit more in resources one could do this in a city, but you have to do some prep work in create a support network, getting people together, etc. And they HAVE to believe the philosophy, and that is very hard in this world. But you could starting small with a proof of concept. That will be harder to do than one thinks, but it is do-able. Maybe could be sustained over time. Don't know. Usually it just turns into cheap spay/neuter and then we are back where we started, but it hasn't in some areas, so the results vary.
It is a philosophy distinct from where you hand all this over to "experts". It's very, very hard for people who have been raised in a society where they hand all this over to others to even conceptualize what you are talking about, so don't give up hope.
That help? Feel free to write back.
the pdf near the bottom of this page
http://www.montanaspayneutertaskforce.org/statistically-speaking/
with previous years stats.
Read around the site - lots of info.
Years ago there was a terrible dog overpopulation problem in an area of the Blackfeet Nation where the people had nearly nothing in resources. Instead of killing them, they borrowed a garage, got a vet to come in with a helper to do their part and provide the medical guidance, and the people, a LOT of 5-7th grade kids as well as adults did everything else. After killing the really sick animals, and these events where owners get some resources and power so they can solve their own problem, they did. Over a bit of time strays just disappeared. Dog bites dropped off. New dogs were spayed or neutered somehow, even after the event, something that had really never happened before. Later they decided they needed, and started their own animal control. These events have been repeated it scores of times across dozens of years and in different areas, with other expanding it out to the state, and other efforts elsewhere. The further it gets from the original, sometimes, the more it turns into do-gooder puppy huggers doing something FOR people instead of LIKE them, (something you have to guard against). There is some efficiency in that, but it kills the spirit and respect, and might actually not do the job as well. There was a spirit in those early ones that is the key to this, and a LARGE part of that is getting the right age kids in a position where they are hands on. (hint: they are magic).
Get the older ones to scrub instruments in between surgeries and help with animal handling. It's very good for them.
With the kids involved in large numbers, a few adults, and a vet and tech who are used to this model, each pair of vet/tech can spay or neuter roughly 40 dogs a day - a lot of it is technique and movement. Very hard to get such a number and variety to practice on in private practice AND get someone else to pick up the bills, so it serves as a great training ground too. Good surgeries, minimal impact on the animals, in and out so hardly any blood, results that stand up to any veterinary clinic - because these are done by licensed vets who practice every day. We even set up extra tables and invite visiting vets who come by to pull up a table and do some.
I spoke to the Vet association at the invitation of their president, and in my conversations with others nearly all of them supported it strongly. (We had an "Event" here, and had a vet who had already made her displeasure known marched in during the event with a video camera to gather evidence. She was a really smart person, nice lady, and by the end of that was offering us the use of her autoclave, getting tips from one of our surgeons, and I think talking about equipment purchases from another state). They make more money on well dogs anyway, and this produces a substantial increase in the well dog pool in the area, so it can help the rest of their business as well.
The COMMUNITY that is generated in one of these is incredible, and crucial. W/o that it just becomes a low-budget spay/neuter clinic. That's fine, but I don't know that we need another 30 or 40 years of basically the same result nationwide, despite how much blood, sweat, tears (lots of tears) and spirit is plowed into what we are doing to tell us we need to do something else.
One of the biggest problem in spay/neuter is not getting enough, it's getting the right ones. Nearly everyone who comes in is low-hanging fruit - the hard ones are still at home, and they need other methods to entice them out. You will break your city trying to mandate it, because these people live their lives laughing at people in uniform trying to make them do things. You have to respect them and welcome them. It's a much different philosophy. But it's very cool when the 5th grader brings the crotchety old neighbor guy in with his dogs, something he swore he would never do. You get the dog-fighter kid who thinks his dog is the toughest one "on the res". You get a LOT of really great people who you will never ever meet on the other side of a counter or badge.
The greatest resistance, even hate mail,
After I thought I had sufficient info I started a non profit and wrote a grant to get some money, talked with vets, found a really good person to rely on who knew about these events. Then I started attending community events around and talking to people. At this health fair in a small native nation area near here I met their principal, smart woman, got it instantly, and cared about the mission. She helped get everyone else together and they made this happen. In the school gym. It was great. We did roughly 140 animals, mostly dogs (30 or so cats maybe, in 2 days.
I went back to interview them about the impact, and months later they were still talking about this. Animal control there historically means they either drive the dog somewhere or shoot it in the woods (not unusual in a lot of rural and even suburban areas even today). For the next year they didn't shoot any, which had not happened in years. Dog bites dropped off, and many of the stray dogs didn't do that any longer. They were, to a person, wanting to do this again, but so far it hasn't happened.
With a bit more in resources one could do this in a city, but you have to do some prep work in create a support network, getting people together, etc. And they HAVE to believe the philosophy, and that is very hard in this world. But you could starting small with a proof of concept. That will be harder to do than one thinks, but it is do-able. Maybe could be sustained over time. Don't know. Usually it just turns into cheap spay/neuter and then we are back where we started, but it hasn't in some areas, so the results vary.
It is a philosophy distinct from where you hand all this over to "experts". It's very, very hard for people who have been raised in a society where they hand all this over to others to even conceptualize what you are talking about, so don't give up hope.
That help? Feel free to write back.
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Interesting I never heard of her. I have a disagreement with lots of training
hollysmom
Feb 2014
#44
KurtNYC! A million thanks! I am an advocate of raising children and dogs through nonviolent methods
DesertDiamond
Feb 2014
#45
You're welcome. There are many positive trainers out there but Bergin takes it further
KurtNYC
Feb 2014
#48
My friends, saints that they are, adopted a 14 yr. old dog through a rescue out of the city shelter.
Hassin Bin Sober
Feb 2014
#42
I'm marking this because I want to get more info. Great need for spay/neuter where I live. n/t
truth2power
Feb 2014
#61
Remember Patrick the Pit Bull, starved and thrown down a trash chute?
WorseBeforeBetter
Feb 2014
#12