General Discussion

Blue_Tires

(57,596 posts)

162. Right now the biggest damnation of Zimmerman

Wed Mar 21, 2012, 02:24 PM

Mar 2012

1. His own phone call to the police (posted everywhere)

2. Accusations that he was a little overzealous, to put it mildly about his vigilantism especially when people of a certain color were around (miami herald)

3. His history of four dozen calls to the police everytime he hears a twig snap (sanford PD's site)

4. His statement given to police that night -- Hasn't been released yet, because I promise you it will sink Zimmerman like a goddamned anvil since his 'official' story will be debunked in 10 seconds

5. No account whatsoever, even from those stumblebum cops, that Martin was doing anything illegal (and by "illegal," I mean a real crime committed against a person, not some bullshit "trespassing" just because he cut across someone's lawn)

I could go on...And I could refer you to the ongoing thread in the Af'ram forum where I've dumped a bunch of news links and commentary, but you're missing the point because the 'SYG' law is kind of a red herring...The legal burden idoesn't start with trying to prove who started fighting with first...The legal burden starts with Zimmerman proving why he started following Martin and called police; (you know, since he was so diligent in his responsibilities and "duties&quot because if that intention was based on spurious or knowingly false pretenses, then NOTHING Zimmerman did from that point forward can be justified, unless Martin physically pulled him out of his truck and started bombing on him...

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This message was self-deleted by its author [View all] Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 OP

There will be an investigation DearAbby Mar 2012 #1

Grand Jury CAPHAVOC Mar 2012 #90

I can't wait for a Grand Jury and independent investigation, hopefully by the FBI. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #203

Or a murder CAPHAVOC Mar 2012 #291

Sooooo JustAnotherGen Mar 2012 #2

We don't know who the attacker was. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #8

Yes we do... ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #13

Don't bother. ellisonz Mar 2012 #36

why is that poster even here? cali Mar 2012 #49

Believe it or not... ellisonz Mar 2012 #57

"One of the more 'with it'?" Who are the others then, Charles Manson & Co.? 2ndAmForComputers Mar 2012 #282

not "a" typical, but "atypical." Atypical = not typical. nt MADem Mar 2012 #70

"atypical", ie "not typical" muriel_volestrangler Mar 2012 #73

Wow. n/t DLevine Mar 2012 #82

I'm very interested in the facts. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #93

It appears you are not very interested in the facts. ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #116

Because it wouldn't fit his liberalhistorian Mar 2012 #137

+1000 EmeraldCityGrl Mar 2012 #150

Everyone seems eager to talk about skittles and iced tea. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #168

Big deal! polly7 Mar 2012 #175

I'm not aware of any evidence of Zimmerman brandishing his concealed firearm. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #196

The person that got out of his car, and accosted a pedestrain minding his own busines initiated Ikonoklast Mar 2012 #270

"evidently beat Zimmerman pretty good" ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #177

If the police are lying or covering up that that is something that needs to come out. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #193

It's not self-defense in any case. polly7 Mar 2012 #200

"There is no reason why Zimmerman should not have had a fun." Duer 157099 Mar 2012 #220

Fixed. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #223

OK, I've got to stop you here because you are locked in to this Blue_Tires Mar 2012 #226

What evidence do you have that Zimmerman was beaten? yardwork Mar 2012 #230

very true Blue_Tires Mar 2012 #204

Zimmerman's call about Martin was almost the same as some of his other 911 calls csziggy Mar 2012 #292

I cannot find your link. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #151

Here is the link, or you can turn on headline news. They are playing ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #167

Thanks, I am reading it now. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #170

I have watched it. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #184

Where is the proof of "knowing there was a fight". Have the police released photos ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #187

You obviously haven't listened to the 911 tapes. Why don't you do that and then get back to us. yardwork Mar 2012 #256

OK. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #258

Thank you. The responding detective has been caught in numerous lies about this case. yardwork Mar 2012 #260

+1. Numerous people have presented facts that are being ignored by this poster. Wonder why. yardwork Mar 2012 #255

no you're not. not even a little tiny bit, dear. cali Mar 2012 #147

Funny because your OP is full of nothing but wild speculation. baldguy Mar 2012 #182

The speculation is that Zimmerman started the fight. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #188

Hung from a tree? Remarkable post. But he owns it, not you. freshwest Mar 2012 #165

Understand that I was talking about what happens to VIOLENT CRIMINALS. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #190

Who determines who the violent criminal is? ellisonz Mar 2012 #271

Thank you JustAnotherGen Mar 2012 #39

We don't know who started the pushing. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #97

So it is o.k. rufus dog Mar 2012 #179

Confront? Yes. Detain? No. Pull a gun? No. X_Digger Mar 2012 #183

This is why pro-gunners like myself have come to despise the pro-gun activists. ieoeja Mar 2012 #194

I listened to one of the 911 calls MagickMuffin Mar 2012 #48

Police reports corroborate the testimony. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #145

Police have been twisting and suppressing the investigation from the first hour Blue_Tires Mar 2012 #237

Where is the evidence that savalez Mar 2012 #61

Lots of places. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #140

What injuries did Martin have? savalez Mar 2012 #174

So one of Zimmerman's neighbors lied for him. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2012 #123

I beat down a 300lb POS once when I weighed 175 snooper2 Mar 2012 #136

nope Maine-ah Mar 2012 #189

Thanks for posting the physical size differences life long demo Mar 2012 #250

"Whether or not Zimmerman should have confronted someone in his neighborhood" is not up for debate ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #3

That doesn't really mean much to me. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #19

Yes we do. You follow. You initiate. Simple. ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #35

Get It Through Your Head, Sir: 'Neighborhood Watch' Has No Legal Authority What-So-Fucking-Ever The Magistrate Mar 2012 #47

Actually Zimmerman had the same legal authority as anyone else.. X_Digger Mar 2012 #172

Which Is None, Sir, Unless Witness To a Crime, Which Zimmerman Was Not The Magistrate Mar 2012 #207

Absent a pattern of following a person (harassment / stalking), no, it is not illegal. X_Digger Mar 2012 #219

Now You are Just Making Stuff Up, Sir; You Have Never Seen Me Argue Against Self-Defense The Magistrate Mar 2012 #229

Actually, I know my state's laws backwards and forwards, have followed as many cases as my westlaw.. X_Digger Mar 2012 #238

Perhaps, Sir The Magistrate Mar 2012 #242

Being the "sole member" is not surprising. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #186

Which Just Says, Sir, Most People Are Not Fizzing With The Desire To Shoot Somebody The Magistrate Mar 2012 #212

You know You should watch an old movie call 12 Angry Men. You remind me of the man who had Justice wanted Mar 2012 #68

That is a perfect analogy! ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #103

His arguements HAVE to be Wingnut talking points. I bet we are going to hear a lot of this in the Justice wanted Mar 2012 #115

Lee J. Cobb played him beautifully. eom tledford Mar 2012 #158

"A neighborhood watch person following a stranger in your neighborhood does not start a fight." Blue_Tires Mar 2012 #232

You are right. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #234

So now we get to the WHY was Martin even followed in the first place? Blue_Tires Mar 2012 #239

Yes, we DO know who started the fight. Withywindle Mar 2012 #261

There was no neighborhood watch program csziggy Mar 2012 #293

Except he had the gun and he left his vehicle to pursue Martin Old and In the Way Mar 2012 #4

He was legally able to carry a gun. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #21

uh, so what? cali Mar 2012 #56

If I was being stalked there is no way I arthritisR_US Mar 2012 #102

We know EXACTLY what happened. He shot and killed an unarmed kid. Hugabear Mar 2012 #113

So you admit he left his vehicle XanaDUer Mar 2012 #114

Jesus Christ. Do you NOT understand liberalhistorian Mar 2012 #154

You are right. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #235

Starting the physical confrontation is irrelevant jeff47 Mar 2012 #267

Zimmerman is not on the short list for a MacArthur Foundation grant for his neighborhood watch work slackmaster Mar 2012 #5

You also forget DearAbby Mar 2012 #6

We don't know that. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #22

We Absolutely Know Who Started The Confrontation, Sir: Zimmerman. He Got Out Of His Car The Magistrate Mar 2012 #30

We know that Zimmerman started the fight. ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #38

To what end? MADem Mar 2012 #84

Agreed! Wind Dancer Mar 2012 #143

To the end of guns uber alles, to the liberalhistorian Mar 2012 #163

You may be right. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #205

We DO know who the stalker was. We know that he was strangely obsessed with calling the cops. kestrel91316 Mar 2012 #60

this wasnt a cop. he has NO authority. the kid had a RIGHT to be there. that simple. was the kid seabeyond Mar 2012 #155

If Zimmerman laid hands on Martin to detain him, or took the first swing- that's the point it.. X_Digger Mar 2012 #180

This wasn't following jeff47 Mar 2012 #268

I'm not pretending anything- I'm just going by what has been reported / 911 tape, etc. X_Digger Mar 2012 #272

No, you're not going by what's been reported jeff47 Mar 2012 #276

Florida law doesn't support that contention. n/t X_Digger Mar 2012 #279

Because in FL, chasing someone is considered non-threatening? jeff47 Mar 2012 #284

Right XanaDUer Mar 2012 #185

You don't seem to be able to put yourself in the place of a polly7 Mar 2012 #159

it is indeed, "as it seems..." LanternWaste Mar 2012 #7

There is nothing wrong with following someone. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #25

Actually, Sir, There Is Something Wrong With Following a Person On A Public Way The Magistrate Mar 2012 #33

Yes, indeed there is-- legally, of not ethically. LanternWaste Mar 2012 #81

If this is true, then I stand corrected. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #86

Harassment / Stalking usually requires repeated incidents. X_Digger Mar 2012 #191

You are changing the facts to make your point. savalez Mar 2012 #121

We don't know who was the aggressor. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #161

Comprehension of the meaning of the word "aggressor" tledford Mar 2012 #164

Zimmerman became the aggressor/ predator EmeraldCityGrl Mar 2012 #178

Of course it does. savalez Mar 2012 #278

Except that he was NOT a "neighborhood watch captain." liberalhistorian Mar 2012 #160

That's not how I read it. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #202

I repeat that more than enough evidence has been liberalhistorian Mar 2012 #213

Zimmerman WAS NOT A NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH unionworks Mar 2012 #195

I had not heard this Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #198

from what I'mseeing unionworks Mar 2012 #215

For me, it comes down to this.. X_Digger Mar 2012 #9

If believe even pursuing him alone qualifies in that regard. TheWraith Mar 2012 #12

I don't know enough about FL case law to say, but ethically, I agree. n/t X_Digger Mar 2012 #14

Exactly. If Zimmerman initiated the altercation, all bets are off. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #28

I don't think the details of the fight really matter, actually. TheWraith Mar 2012 #10

We don't know that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #31

Put yourself in trayvon's shoes JustAnotherGen Mar 2012 #46

He initiated the confrontation by pursuing Martin. TheWraith Mar 2012 #54

following and chasing someone is an aggressive act fishwax Mar 2012 #75

Yes and with a gun in his hand, too XanaDUer Mar 2012 #132

If Martin went on the attack as Zimmerman walked up to him then yes it does matter. Life Long Dem Mar 2012 #51

Unlikely as that scenario is at this point, I agree. n/t X_Digger Mar 2012 #197

It does seem unlikely. Life Long Dem Mar 2012 #277

No, actually it doesn't. jeff47 Mar 2012 #269

The kid had as much right to Stand His Ground as anyone else in Florida. eShirl Mar 2012 #11

+10000000 nashville_brook Mar 2012 #41

+ 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 kestrel91316 Mar 2012 #64

thank you...end of story Blue_Tires Mar 2012 #94

That's exactly right. Ganja Ninja Mar 2012 #108

There you have it. tallahasseedem Mar 2012 #119

Some would love that to be the case. Rex Mar 2012 #15

The prey sometimes scratches a careless poacher before being killed. Zimmerman was an inept hunter leveymg Mar 2012 #16

So you think it's totally ok to follow and physically DFab420 Mar 2012 #17

Absolutely not. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #40

Actually, Sir, We Know Just What His Suspicions Were Based On: He Saw A Black Youth On The Sidewalk The Magistrate Mar 2012 #87

Careful zipplewrath Mar 2012 #18

Zimmerman still didn't need a gun Politicalboi Mar 2012 #20

Trayvon's mother barbtries Mar 2012 #29

Forensics should be able to determine who's voice is on the tapes. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #55

hopefully anyway they'll be able to eliminate the killer. barbtries Mar 2012 #224

I know Politicalboi Mar 2012 #62

that's my feeling as well. barbtries Mar 2012 #199

Weight does not always count for anything. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #50

Zimmerman chased him Politicalboi Mar 2012 #80

So let me get this straight... Oilwellian Mar 2012 #166

Yes. polly7 Mar 2012 #52

They were either covering their asses Politicalboi Mar 2012 #88

The S.O.B. was instructed by 911 to NOT get out of his car and pursue the situation. CakeGrrl Mar 2012 #23

I agree that he should have stayed in the car, but I'm troubled by how many think the 911 operator slackmaster Mar 2012 #37

Well, a lawyer on CNN this morning (I don't claim to know the ins and outs of FL law) ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #43

Sounded like a suggestion to me. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #66

Perhaps God Will Be Kind, Sir, And Give You A Chance To Shoot Somebody Someday, Too.... The Magistrate Mar 2012 #96

Perhaps One Day You'll Stop With Your Pretentious Initial Cap Nonsense. closeupready Mar 2012 #216

An Incautious Observer, Sir, Might Conclude You Do Not Like Me Very Much.... The Magistrate Mar 2012 #231

Have we ever met??? So no, closeupready Mar 2012 #248

Damn, Sir, That was A Lot Of Words.... The Magistrate Mar 2012 #249

lol, you're welcome. closeupready Mar 2012 #251

I wonder if he felt threatened by the bag of Skittles? Or the can of Iced tea? ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #99

The Can, Ma'am: It Glittered, And All That Glitters Is Gun.... The Magistrate Mar 2012 #110

Zimmerman called 9/11 ALL the time Politicalboi Mar 2012 #101

Yep jsmirman Mar 2012 #131

"We Don't Need You To Do That" = "You Have No Authorization To Do That" jsmirman Mar 2012 #128

A person who has no legal authority to tell you TO do something has no authority to tell you NOT to slackmaster Mar 2012 #135

Wrong, utterly fucking wrong jsmirman Mar 2012 #138

Zimmerman CHOSE to disregard 911's ADVICE and placed himself at risk slackmaster Mar 2012 #247

WRONG - he placed them BOTH at risk jsmirman Mar 2012 #286

You seemed to be suggesting that a 911 operator has some legal authority to tell people what to do slackmaster Mar 2012 #289

I think you are correct that a 911 operator has no legal authority jsmirman Mar 2012 #290

Reductio ad absurdum LanternWaste Mar 2012 #241

Reductio ad absurdum is a valid way of pointing out lack of substance in someone's argument slackmaster Mar 2012 #252

And btw, if he was carrying a gun AND jsmirman Mar 2012 #149

Why would anyone pursue a man who was not breaking the law? I think in this case.... Logical Mar 2012 #275

There is nothing wrong with following and confronting a person who looks suspicious slackmaster Mar 2012 #280

If you mean talking then OK. Confronting seems a little more extreme. If you are walking down my.... Logical Mar 2012 #281

I confronted two men on Monday. It looked like they were going to illegal dump a load of stuff... slackmaster Mar 2012 #283

No, he wasn't. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #58

Duty? Didn't I read that Zimmerman self-appointed himself as nightwatch guardian Blue_Tires Mar 2012 #111

Yes, Sir, You Did: 'Captain' Of A 'Neighborhood Watch' He Was Sole Member Of The Magistrate Mar 2012 #118

This Is Just the Initial Set Of Police Lies, Sir The Magistrate Mar 2012 #24

We don't know who initiated the physical confrontation. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #69

We Absolutely Know Who Started The Confrontation, Sir: Zimmerman. He Got Out Of His Car The Magistrate Mar 2012 #100

Except Trayvon Martin had no gun and was 17. Jennicut Mar 2012 #26

That doesn't mean much by itself. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #74

Really? ProSense Mar 2012 #89

You Know, Sir, This Insistence On How Deadly Un-Armed People Are Is Rather Funny The Magistrate Mar 2012 #157

It's dark, you're alone, walking in a common XanaDUer Mar 2012 #171

An unarmed man vs an unarmed teenager. Jennicut Mar 2012 #295

forget that! KT2000 Mar 2012 #27

+1 polly7 Mar 2012 #32

Apparently, this minor was supposed to submit to the questioning of a man with msanthrope Mar 2012 #153

You know, I'd say, even if Trayvon Martin was walking on the common grass XanaDUer Mar 2012 #214

it's also clear that if Zimmerman hadn't had a gun... mike_c Mar 2012 #34

Riiight... kenfrequed Mar 2012 #42

bullfuckingshite of the worst order cali Mar 2012 #44

Please cite it. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #77

there you go. he expressed fear to his girlfriend and told her he was being stalked cali Mar 2012 #92

Right now the biggest damnation of Zimmerman Blue_Tires Mar 2012 #162

This is one witness EC Mar 2012 #45

His dad also said, prior to the 911 tapes coming out, that polly7 Mar 2012 #59

Really? Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #79

Sounds like desperation to make this kid to be some sort of Threat. This is a way for the PD Justice wanted Mar 2012 #53

So, the racist backlash begins. 6000eliot Mar 2012 #63

Bullshit. There is no defense for this racist pig. Hugabear Mar 2012 #65

So if a racist carrying a gun follows and starts a fistfight with a young black man, Nye Bevan Mar 2012 #67

Apparently, Sir, Our 'Atypical Liberal' Here Thinks So.... The Magistrate Mar 2012 #71

The sum total of all your posts in this thread = RACIST APOLOGIST BS. kestrel91316 Mar 2012 #72

What in my posts would you consider racist? Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #83

OK, Zimmerman may have been a racist. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #126

If Zimmerman followed Martin and confronted him, then who is the aggressor? Stinky The Clown Mar 2012 #76

Depends on what you mean by "confronted" Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #85

re: "Do you get to kill some that you assault" cthulu2016 Mar 2012 #127

"confronted" cthulu2016 Mar 2012 #106

Thank you. X_Digger Mar 2012 #209

"These assholes always get away..." is all I needed to hear. ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #120

It's worse than that. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #129

There needs to be a thorough independent investigation. nt Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #78

I agree. n/t Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #91

Who needs facts when we have perfectly good outrage? Speck Tater Mar 2012 #95

sorry, we know a great deal about what happened as well as quite a bit cali Mar 2012 #104

I am in complete agreement! He should be in jail. Speck Tater Mar 2012 #122

Under what circumstances should Zimmerman not be held accountable? sadbear Mar 2012 #107

Then what would people do with their time around here snooper2 Mar 2012 #146

What a bunch of crap. EFerrari Mar 2012 #98

Bar fight HockeyMom Mar 2012 #105

True, but Trayvan didn't even enter this fight as a willing participant. polly7 Mar 2012 #125

I suspect it depends on who started it. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #208

If you were in a bar fight in FL, and tried to disengage, and your opponent pursued the fight.. X_Digger Mar 2012 #240

That is SICK. HockeyMom Mar 2012 #245

Sorry. There is no justifiable excuse for stalking and shooting an unarmed person. n/t Avalux Mar 2012 #109

Even if that person is on top of you and beating you up? n/t Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #130

Only if the other person started beating you up for no reason sadbear Mar 2012 #139

uh, yeah. cali Mar 2012 #141

Just because you're losing a fight does not give you the right to shoot ... Ganja Ninja Mar 2012 #152

Who pursued who? WI_DEM Mar 2012 #173

IF that happened, and I hope TM got some good licks in IF IT IS true XanaDUer Mar 2012 #225

No. chowder66 Mar 2012 #266

Yes, even if they are beating you up. jeff47 Mar 2012 #273

you have to be playin' blind to come up with this fascisthunter Mar 2012 #112

more like cali Mar 2012 #117

. fascisthunter Mar 2012 #124

I am not a freeper. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #217

What you are reporting is the first information that the Orlando Sentinel Baitball Blogger Mar 2012 #133

So you say Zimmerman was losing a fist fight with a kid SomethingFishy Mar 2012 #134

I'm not defending him. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #156

Zimmerman was out of bounds. mindem Mar 2012 #142

Good find sadbear Mar 2012 #144

Good posting. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #221

He is a cop wannabe chrisa Mar 2012 #287

Guns Guns Guns bpj62 Mar 2012 #148

Nope, Zimmerman was told not to pursue the boy and he did WI_DEM Mar 2012 #169

I think we do know who started the fight. Zimmerman was told to wait for the police to get there sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #176

Zimmerman has a history of domestic violence Rex Mar 2012 #211

Weeeee, let's all pretend we're Nancy Grace! just1voice Mar 2012 #181

Does Not Matter Xyzse Mar 2012 #192

I'll buy that. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #210

Agreed chrisa Mar 2012 #288

The man is a bully...who was a racist Bully...most likely still is...who violated his duties by not opihimoimoi Mar 2012 #201

Wow man this is like sooo atypical...... What a crock of shit. nt Guy Whitey Corngood Mar 2012 #206

The police broke the chain of evidence by allowing Zimmerman to leave the scene. AtomicKitten Mar 2012 #218

That is what I am hoping to see. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #222

Ridiculous. Why would the much bigger guy with the gun be crying on the tape? EFerrari Mar 2012 #227

I think forensics will save the day. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #236

And I think you are trying to turn the easily observable into controversy EFerrari Mar 2012 #243

There's playing devil's advocate, and then there's simple absurdity LanternWaste Mar 2012 #246

I agree. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #259

I believe he was handcuffed and taken to the station.. X_Digger Mar 2012 #244

I'm reasonably certain he was allowed to leave the scene with his gun. AtomicKitten Mar 2012 #254

*nod* I had heard that as well. (or at least leave the station with it.) n/t X_Digger Mar 2012 #257

You are missing a lot of facts. yardwork Mar 2012 #228

Answers. Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #233

All your "evidence" is the say-so of the Sanford police department, plus a confused witness. yardwork Mar 2012 #253

Trayvon's father never said it wasn't Trayvon's voice on the 9-11 recordings. girl gone mad Mar 2012 #285

Don't let the facts get in the way of your defending gun rights. Defend your gun rights above all. Electric Monk Mar 2012 #262

Please re-read my original post. n/t Atypical Liberal Mar 2012 #263

I'm an advocate of 2a and self defense rights guitar man Mar 2012 #264

bullshit n/t RainDog Mar 2012 #265

Wow, your Gun bias is beyond belief....... Logical Mar 2012 #274

"When George Zimmerman was arrested..." CBHagman Mar 2012 #294