General Discussion

Aerows

(39,961 posts)

109. Having the rule of law

Mon Feb 17, 2014, 01:19 PM

Feb 2014

is what prevents anarchy, full stop. When you start to believe that laws can be broken, and society can exist without being plunged into chaos, you support breaking the law that everyone in civil society agreed upon. Sometimes they must be broken - I do not in any way, shape or form disagree with that idea.

The problem comes in when it isn't a person breaking the law, and instead becomes an institution with the power to imprison, kill and torture another with no oversight. That's when civil society reaches a breaking point. That's when you have no recourse for the fabric of society being ripped apart and shredded.

When people can't say "you have crossed the line" because people didn't know you were even doing it, you aren't part of civil society anymore. You are a warlord that demands obedience to rules that only you are privy to.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

187 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

DEA Manuals Show Feds Use NSA Spy Data, Train Cops to Construct False Chains of Evidence [View all] Are_grits_groceries Feb 2014 OP

Remember when there was mocking for suggesting that the spying even existed? woo me with science Feb 2014 #1

Yeppers. Threads were locked for spreading woo. Baitball Blogger Feb 2014 #2

Too much stuff labeled "Woo", later turns out not to be woo. RC Feb 2014 #4

+10000 woo me with science Feb 2014 #9

What really gets me is how people and organizations break the law Baitball Blogger Feb 2014 #21

....^ 840high Feb 2014 #85

Yes, we wouldn't want the spreading of woo. In the meantime it's Enthusiast Feb 2014 #22

See no evil Aerows Feb 2014 #152

Post removed Post removed Feb 2014 #6

Now "that" is some steaming PR effusion. woo me with science Feb 2014 #8

And predictable as the sunrise. Enthusiast Feb 2014 #23

Not shocked at all. nt. neverforget Feb 2014 #10

Fake Democrats are well-ingrained in our Party and DU. Scuba Feb 2014 #17

Republican Democrats, I've heard as well. grahamhgreen Feb 2014 #83

+1 And right now we get to witness the magic of an election year, woo me with science Feb 2014 #93

And that's what pisses me off Aerows Feb 2014 #144

Fucking McCarthyites! n/t hootinholler Feb 2014 #28

They have become parodies of themselves. bvar22 Feb 2014 #35

I've put both of them on my ignore list, and threads have immediately become more constructive. [n/t Maedhros Feb 2014 #62

Yes. But now that it has been exposed, the way not to deal with it is to use the 'look over there' sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #39

We have always had spies...who was deluded into thinking this is something new? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #57

If the OP is true we aren't talking about spies. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #70

Well that's a huge leap... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #71

Yes, that's what the article in the OP is alleging: that an insider has provided that evidence Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #72

Well just saying "somebody said so" is not going to cut it... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #73

Which is exactly what would make falsifying chains of evidence so egregious. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #74

OMG (Clapper again)....and yeah...I am dismissing... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #75

For a while Watergate was merely hearsay. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #76

lots of things are hearsay and never proven true too... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #80

But we would never know either way unless we pursued the truth. n/t Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #81

but you don't just believe every thing you hear just because it fits your narrative VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #82

I didn't have a narrative until the NSA gave me one. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #87

yeah right...no narrative.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #90

Do you have anything of substance or just a smiley provided to you by the founders of this forum? Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #92

reuters reported on this last summer questionseverything Feb 2014 #95

Exactly n/t Aerows Feb 2014 #101

You are absolutely right, Nuclear Unicorn Aerows Feb 2014 #100

Honey, if you got any more phony with your arguments Aerows Feb 2014 #145

Oh, you showed up Aerows Feb 2014 #97

Wait a second Aerows Feb 2014 #143

K&R. nt OnyxCollie Feb 2014 #3

HUGE K & R !!! WillyT Feb 2014 #5

You'd be a fool to trust the EN-SS-EH blkmusclmachine Feb 2014 #7

Yep spied, lied and tried... zeemike Feb 2014 #11

But, but, but it's LEGAL! Th1onein Feb 2014 #183

Has the ACLU gotten involved ohheckyeah Feb 2014 #12

They're keeping two sets of books jsr Feb 2014 #13

How to violate our Fourth Amendment rights is in their training manuals? Oilwellian Feb 2014 #14

+1 This should be the beginning of relentless investigation of these crimes, woo me with science Feb 2014 #15

NSA appears to be a criminal enterprise. nt grasswire Feb 2014 #29

No hyperbole there. nt woo me with science Feb 2014 #36

kick for that n/t reddread Feb 2014 #37

Second kick Aerows Feb 2014 #53

It boggles the mind Aerows Feb 2014 #103

So they have a "taint review team" Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #16

You guys did read all the training slides available, right? randome Feb 2014 #18

In your opinion is constructing false evidence trails an ethical government practice? n/t Fumesucker Feb 2014 #19

I would think it irrelevant in regard to non-citizens. randome Feb 2014 #20

to be confronted with the witnesses against him questionseverything Feb 2014 #26

Where in the Constitution does is say it only applies to citizens? hootinholler Feb 2014 #27

And there it is. Endorsement of secret government fabrication of evidence trails. woo me with science Feb 2014 #31

What you are saying that it doesnt matter how you get evidence. Search warrants are not required rhett o rick Feb 2014 #32

Well, Carl Bernstein says it okay so for randome, that means its okay!111!!!1 nt riderinthestorm Feb 2014 #34

Randome Aerows Feb 2014 #47

Seems to think the time's have gone beyond it. Octafish Feb 2014 #66

When you believe the Constitution Aerows Feb 2014 #96

Where did I ever say we don't need laws or am in favor of anarchy? randome Feb 2014 #105

Your own petard Aerows Feb 2014 #106

The biggest change I would like is to do away with the House of Representatives. randome Feb 2014 #108

Having the rule of law Aerows Feb 2014 #109

But every law and rule on the books has exceptions. randome Feb 2014 #113

"I promise" Aerows Feb 2014 #117

My very first example is valid, I think. randome Feb 2014 #121

Oh, so now you admit they often abuse their responsibilities? Aerows Feb 2014 #125

I never said 'often'. randome Feb 2014 #129

If that is your defense Aerows Feb 2014 #130

When you defend creating false evidence trails Aerows Feb 2014 #120

No one is creating false evidence. At least not within the confines of the OP. randome Feb 2014 #122

Randome Aerows Feb 2014 #124

it is illegal because they are denying a fair trial questionseverything Feb 2014 #127

The 'witness' in the example I suggested, would be the email. randome Feb 2014 #131

SC disagrees questionseverything Feb 2014 #132

I get that. randome Feb 2014 #136

so sorry but spying on American citizens questionseverything Feb 2014 #140

I knew that and other responses on that thread bothered me for a reason. Octafish Feb 2014 #110

what the defenders of illegal spying fail to point out is questionseverything Feb 2014 #116

It just goes to show Aerows Feb 2014 #123

When people openly advocate Aerows Feb 2014 #118

that kind of explains it all questionseverything Feb 2014 #112

Yep Aerows Feb 2014 #115

Yeah, that poster always poo poohs the NSA revelations. It's not shocking that they hold neverforget Feb 2014 #171

Did we change your mind? I hope!!! grahamhgreen Feb 2014 #84

Uh, no. randome Feb 2014 #98

The Constitution of the United States of America Aerows Feb 2014 #107

You asking if I would rather follow the American system of jurisprudence enshrined in the grahamhgreen Feb 2014 #158

Someone could answer the question I posed. randome Feb 2014 #163

It's acceptable, of course it is Aerows Feb 2014 #48

Did Clapper lie under oath? sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #41

You know, it becomes more clear by the day Aerows Feb 2014 #45

I have never used 9/11 as a justification for anything. randome Feb 2014 #102

You wouldn't know a law Aerows Feb 2014 #104

"not permissible to lie under oath" progressoid Feb 2014 #63

Nobody in government has to obey the law anymore Aerows Feb 2014 #114

Hey, lying under oath Aerows Feb 2014 #126

+10 (nt) reACTIONary Feb 2014 #65

Perhaps expecting inhabitants of the Innertubes to actually read and understand documents, struggle4progress Feb 2014 #86

I am quite enjoying this thread...the shutdown of Silk Road, which almost certainly happened because msanthrope Feb 2014 #88

the solicitor general lied to SC because he assumed justice would follow the law? questionseverything Feb 2014 #94

LOL! Aerows Feb 2014 #128

Ah...the defense of Silk Road...and human trafficking. Lovely. Silk Road would operate msanthrope Feb 2014 #133

Interesting way of deflecting a sincere question. Aerows Feb 2014 #134

Don't forget the murder-for-contract hire. randome Feb 2014 #137

You've defended some repugnant things Aerows Feb 2014 #138

when they come to take your rights away questionseverything Feb 2014 #141

We may be voices in the wilderness, my friend Aerows Feb 2014 #142

Now is it a Police State? Octafish Feb 2014 #24

As usual, you cut directly through the bullshit. woo me with science Feb 2014 #25

kick for this n/t reddread Feb 2014 #30

Kicking this comment Aerows Feb 2014 #49

U.S. to review DEA unit that hides use of intel in crime cases ProSense Feb 2014 #33

so the farmer says to the fox questionseverything Feb 2014 #38

+1 succinct and dead on correct reddread Feb 2014 #40

Amen to never has been Aerows Feb 2014 #50

"Spin"? ProSense Feb 2014 #42

Oh, I think the American people Aerows Feb 2014 #51

You know what: ProSense Feb 2014 #52

Well Gee, my dear ProSense Aerows Feb 2014 #54

Ah ProSense Feb 2014 #55

Should I offer you a box of rocks Aerows Feb 2014 #56

Well, ProSense Feb 2014 #58

Copy/Paste is such a high-level skill set Aerows Feb 2014 #59

Aerows ProSense Feb 2014 #60

Thanks for kicking it Aerows Feb 2014 #61

Thank you. woo me with science Feb 2014 #43

Sounds like grounds to debunkthis Feb 2014 #44

Sure does Aerows Feb 2014 #46

+1000000 woo me with science Feb 2014 #77

+1000 G_j Feb 2014 #111

Kick woo me with science Feb 2014 #64

K&R me b zola Feb 2014 #67

Gee, nobody saw this Happening! **sarcasm** fascisthunter Feb 2014 #68

Parallel construction is used... reACTIONary Feb 2014 #69

Interesting User Name. Maedhros Feb 2014 #89

No, it was imposed upon me... reACTIONary Feb 2014 #146

Interesting choice, given the forum we are on. That's all. Maedhros Feb 2014 #147

I might be a bit slow(or just ignorant) but just how does the name antagonize Liberals? n/t Bodhi BloodWave Feb 2014 #150

Because liberals are referred to as reactionary Aerows Feb 2014 #155

"Reactionary" originally referred to those elements in France that opposed the Revolution. Maedhros Feb 2014 #157

it has had a number of definitions though haven't it? Bodhi BloodWave Feb 2014 #159

A poster with the handle "reACTIONary" posts consistently in defense of the NSA Maedhros Feb 2014 #162

I have no problem with the nsa as an agency, they have a job to do Bodhi BloodWave Feb 2014 #164

Opposing surveillance in the absence of suspicion Maedhros Feb 2014 #165

The NSA is an inteligence organization... reACTIONary Feb 2014 #172

See, it's posts like this that convince me you aren't arguing in good faith. Maedhros Feb 2014 #173

When you accuse me of defending "blanket survelance"... reACTIONary Feb 2014 #180

yes that is the entire point of this op questionseverything Feb 2014 #184

No, The NSA spys on foreign targets... reACTIONary Feb 2014 #185

maybe this judge can explain why it is illegal questionseverything Feb 2014 #186

I have never heard of anything like this at all... reACTIONary Feb 2014 #187

So the Constitution doesn't apply to intelligence agencies? neverforget Feb 2014 #174

The fourth amendment... reACTIONary Feb 2014 #176

No kidding. This debate is about the NSA spying on Americans. neverforget Feb 2014 #177

The NSA is not spying on Americans... reACTIONary Feb 2014 #178

Baloney. Verizon, of which I am an American customer, has been handing over metadata to the NSA neverforget Feb 2014 #179

I think you definitly can reasonably assume that... reACTIONary Feb 2014 #181

Trust us! We would never abuse our power! Ever! Smith v Maryland, the ruling that supposedly allows neverforget Feb 2014 #182

Thanks! (nt) reACTIONary Feb 2014 #167

Indeed n/t Aerows Feb 2014 #153

I am a liberal... reACTIONary Feb 2014 #166

As a Liberal, I am much more concerned with how parallel construction negatively impacts Maedhros Feb 2014 #168

As citizens who value our freedom and our liberal democracy... reACTIONary Feb 2014 #169

Valerie Plame Aerows Feb 2014 #154

Lets look again... reACTIONary Feb 2014 #170

K&R n/t Michigan-Arizona Feb 2014 #78

This is an injustice. Literally. Legitimate concerns? Tough shit. Work within the law ... GoneFishin Feb 2014 #79

& k & r! n/t wildbilln864 Feb 2014 #91

Wow, they don't call it a War on Drugs for nothing Boom Sound 416 Feb 2014 #99

Defending this Aerows Feb 2014 #119

Did this not go away? Aerows Feb 2014 #135

Yup. woo me with science Feb 2014 #149

I'm pretty tired Aerows Feb 2014 #139

K & R n/t JohnyCanuck Feb 2014 #148

How many convictions will be overturned because of this breach of our constitutional rights? Coyotl Feb 2014 #151

K&R n/t Aerows Feb 2014 #156

This is really messed up Aerows Feb 2014 #160

I refuse to let this sink Aerows Feb 2014 #161

This is serious. I'm with you Aerows! neverforget Feb 2014 #175