General Discussion

firehorse

(755 posts)

16. Her type of female archetype is lacking in fiction - for that alone its empowering.

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 11:50 PM

Dec 2011

Not every woman on planet earth aspires to be a blow up doll like the kardashians. Too bad there are not more Lizbeths in fiction. She's a hacker, she's got a mohawk wears punk clothes, rides a motorcycle and at about 100 pounds can kick the ass of two bikers. She's self sufficient and has a strong sense of justice. These traits are "cool" when its old Clint Eastwood movies or in Samuri movies, its refreshing that finally in this decade a female can have these traits too especially when living in an era of extreme makeover and Housewives of Orange County, kardashians, etc.

And on another level, some statistics say 1 out of 3 women have been raped and or physically attacked by the men in their life. Very few of these attacks are reported or justice served. Lizbeth's character acts out a revenge fantasy that a lot of victims have, and in so viewers watching / reading that kind of fantasy -- it can be very validating, healing, to those who have been victimized.

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The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Empowering or exploitive to women? [View all] Burgman Dec 2011 OP

The books sucked. ScreamingMeemie Dec 2011 #1

it's translated from swedish, it reads awkward at times. dionysus Dec 2011 #4

I understand that it is translated from Swedish. The story was horrible and violent for no need... ScreamingMeemie Dec 2011 #11

to each their own. dionysus Dec 2011 #219

I was impressed at how good the translation was. Morning Dew Dec 2011 #24

Read the books, not sure if I want to see the movie. northoftheborder Dec 2011 #5

Saw the movies and they sucked horribly. Each worse than the last. kenny blankenship Dec 2011 #9

Some great books are turned into really horrible movies. Nye Bevan Dec 2011 #14

So you stole content? Burgman Dec 2011 #15

To be fair, I saw "Star Wars Episode 1- the Phantom Menace" which sucked horribly, Nye Bevan Dec 2011 #19

the argument stands in my opinion. Burgman Dec 2011 #23

Fantastic planet - one of the oldest, bestest, movies made. ChairmanAgnostic Dec 2011 #162

LOL Leslie Nielson bieng serious. Burgman Dec 2011 #163

True, that, but that movie kicked ass on special effects ChairmanAgnostic Dec 2011 #164

I could be all three. kenny blankenship Dec 2011 #22

curious. Why is this so offensive to you? Burgman Dec 2011 #25

I said it was shitty not offensive. It's just a crappy trio of films. kenny blankenship Dec 2011 #29

"If it doesn't cost me anything to watch, maybe I'll see it. Burgman Dec 2011 #33

Well it could cost me two hours and my self respect if it's as bad as the original kenny blankenship Dec 2011 #47

The English language version of "Let the Right One In" was a Xerox of the original film. DCKit Dec 2011 #54

You can have a shot for shot remake, and lose the tone, characterization & theme kenny blankenship Dec 2011 #93

This message was self-deleted by its author emulatorloo Dec 2011 #108

also the actors themselves Ghost of Tom Joad Dec 2011 #181

"Stole Content"? They're on Netflix. DCKit Dec 2011 #53

The Swedish Dragon Tattoo Films are available on Netflix blogslut Dec 2011 #94

Netflix is a paid for service. Burgman Dec 2011 #155

there's this thing called a.....library. that's where I 'stole' it Gabi Hayes Dec 2011 #171

But it meant well. kenny blankenship Dec 2011 #188

hard to take writing/filmmaking that purport to be Gabi Hayes Dec 2011 #226

I agree. Text provides some distance from violence eridani Dec 2011 #31

Wow... I read the 1st in Madrid (a 3 week vacation) alittlelark Dec 2011 #10

I am glad you enjoyed them. Me? Not so much. ScreamingMeemie Dec 2011 #17

I couldn't read them either, I finally got the first on on cd and listening is much better than Ghost of Tom Joad Dec 2011 #182

I thought the books were great, and am also a Packer fan. Weird, huh? Scuba Dec 2011 #58

LOL! Habibi Dec 2011 #78

I'm with you. Bad writing, yet adored by those who seldom read thrillers mainer Dec 2011 #60

Just my opinion: It needed more editing. yodermon Dec 2011 #75

I actually considered that useful eridani Dec 2011 #166

I'm half way through the second book and they have both been absolutely brilliant.. truebrit71 Dec 2011 #88

I have read all three and agree with you. I liked the strong female character. nm rhett o rick Dec 2011 #131

I agree. Couldn't get through it myself. bigwillq Dec 2011 #222

male fantasy and glorification of rape in the name of feminism. seabeyond Dec 2011 #2

i highly doubt you read the books. sorry. dionysus Dec 2011 #7

Don't you think that the original title was a bit more than a straight in your face title? Burgman Dec 2011 #8

I saw it as glorifying revenge on rapists n/t eridani Dec 2011 #34

That's exactly how I saw it. a la izquierda Dec 2011 #157

This message was self-deleted by its author femrap Dec 2011 #183

Only your narrow radical feminist view is allowed to speak in the name of feminism? Major Nikon Dec 2011 #38

Those books may have gotten off to a rocky start, Are_grits_groceries Dec 2011 #57

you will NEVER see a graphic, explicit, drawn out scene of male on male rape. never. seabeyond Dec 2011 #63

amen seabeyond JustAnotherGen Dec 2011 #64

major whatever has yet to be on womens side in all of his posts. i dont take him too seriously. nt seabeyond Dec 2011 #74

Me either! JustAnotherGen Dec 2011 #79

It concerns me that hardly anyone else notices redqueen Dec 2011 #67

Sorry - you are wrong about this. cliffordu Dec 2011 #71

That's right, the movie "Pulp Fiction" doesn't exist. EOTE Dec 2011 #73

pulp fiction is the one out of all of them i have seen. and it is exactly how i describe. male on seabeyond Dec 2011 #77

So your issue is that male rape on film isn't graphic enough? EOTE Dec 2011 #81

you continue to reinforce the point i made. thanks.... seabeyond Dec 2011 #82

Ahhh, so a man being raped with a knife isn't graphic enough for you. Thanks for proving my point. EOTE Dec 2011 #83

+1 Well said. nt hifiguy Dec 2011 #92

post 105. i dont agree. nt seabeyond Dec 2011 #106

who really cares how many of the movies you've seen? DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2011 #109

how we change the issue. i never said there are NO movies that have male on male rape. seabeyond Dec 2011 #110

Nope, you simply said they weren't graphic enough. A man being raped with a knife... EOTE Dec 2011 #113

again, i have not seen the movie. you have named off quite a few movies and i have check them out seabeyond Dec 2011 #115

The issue is that you said there will never be an extended, graphic portrayal of male rape on the EOTE Dec 2011 #117

While I think this post skirts with calling a member out, MedicalAdmin Dec 2011 #123

That wasn't the point she was trying to make. EOTE Dec 2011 #145

tell me where i am wrong. seabeyond Dec 2011 #172

If you can't see where you're wrong, you're utterly blind. EOTE Dec 2011 #200

i wasnt talking to you. i have absolutely no expectation of you... at all. nt seabeyond Dec 2011 #201

And I have absolutely no expectation to see you tell the truth. EOTE Dec 2011 #204

and I quote: "you will NEVER see a graphic, explicit, drawn out scene of male on male rape. never." DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2011 #125

Spetters. Caligula. Bluenorthwest Dec 2011 #148

Don't forget American History X Hugabear Dec 2011 #128

Deliverence? NeedleCast Dec 2011 #91

Not so graphic it wasn't shown on television in the early seventies. saras Dec 2011 #99

HEAVILY edited cliffordu Dec 2011 #107

with todays standard, no, not graphic, which is my point. top 10 horrifying moments seabeyond Dec 2011 #105

I love how your comment was twisted... redqueen Dec 2011 #112

Intellectual dishonesty? EOTE Dec 2011 #114

That's more a difference of opinion. redqueen Dec 2011 #116

Actual dishonesty is talking for certain about things which you know nothing about. EOTE Dec 2011 #118

i am saying i want to see more brutal rape of men? or less brutal rape of women? or.... seabeyond Dec 2011 #121

You said those portrayals of rape don't exist. EOTE Dec 2011 #144

I think you may be talking past each other. redqueen Dec 2011 #122

She said that there will NEVER be a graphic, extended male rape scene on film. EOTE Dec 2011 #146

Oh come on. redqueen Dec 2011 #147

Then what did she mean by it? EOTE Dec 2011 #154

And regarding the meat of the issue. EOTE Dec 2011 #156

If by 'lurid detail' you mean sexualized, then yes. redqueen Dec 2011 #168

I have never seen a rape on film that I considered to be sexualized, male or female. EOTE Dec 2011 #199

Well that's why you and I redqueen Dec 2011 #202

It doesn't help that when trying to counter an argument, I'm told that I can't take it seriously. EOTE Dec 2011 #205

? redqueen Dec 2011 #206

Just a few posts ago: EOTE Dec 2011 #207

She is talking about sexualization on film. redqueen Dec 2011 #208

She said graphic and extended. And that is without a doubt untrue. EOTE Dec 2011 #209

having seen none of these movies except pulp seabeyond Dec 2011 #120

Deliverance came pretty close n/t DFW Dec 2011 #124

I have one word for you.... daleanime Dec 2011 #135

The rape scene in the Swedish film version was no more graphic than Deliverance tclambert Dec 2011 #137

"Fun" aside, redqueen Dec 2011 #139

not much of a burroughs fan, I'd guess. that said, Gabi Hayes Dec 2011 #173

Well, this response started a lot of pointless dithering over hyperbole. boppers Dec 2011 #193

please point out where i said there was not male on male rape in film. seabeyond Dec 2011 #197

Regarding the duration of the scenes... redqueen Dec 2011 #203

Just saw the original GWtDT movie. boppers Dec 2011 #224

I don't know if it 'glorified' rape per se JustAnotherGen Dec 2011 #65

( Spoiler below ) I don't know how anyone can think of that book redqueen Dec 2011 #68

Oh, and women who enacts violent revenge... apparently that's somehow feminist. seabeyond Dec 2011 #72

Yeah, sexualized violence isn't my thing, redqueen Dec 2011 #80

I think that spoiler part was just another sign of the main character's overall confusion... truebrit71 Dec 2011 #149

A Feminist is one who shaves her pits and calls men pigs? Moonwalk Dec 2011 #170

If a woman helped her "achieve pride and restoration", would that be different in your eyes? boppers Dec 2011 #190

The "stereotype" i was referring to was the Andrew Dworkin "all sex is rape" type of radical... truebrit71 Dec 2011 #214

I don't see how it glorifies rape Dorian Gray Dec 2011 #70

It doesn't, in any way, shape or form... truebrit71 Dec 2011 #150

except in my original statement i did not focus just on the rape seabeyond Dec 2011 #153

I wasn't referring to you specifically, but rather others that jumped on your bandwagon... truebrit71 Dec 2011 #159

Fair enough. seabeyond Dec 2011 #161

"feminist heroin"..... Interesting typo. boppers Dec 2011 #191

Have you read the books? polly7 Dec 2011 #189

That is absolute bollocks.. truebrit71 Dec 2011 #90

they did not change the title here from "M�n som hatar kvinnor", and the books were a splash hit for stockholmer Dec 2011 #160

Based upon what Lisbeth does to her rapist, I would say empowering (nt) Nye Bevan Dec 2011 #3

Yep. Odin2005 Dec 2011 #6

+1000 alittlelark Dec 2011 #13

You are back!! How is your son??!! riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #40

It appears to be a non-ossifying fibroma, but we need to alittlelark Dec 2011 #43

Is that serious? riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #44

We don't really know how serious it is. alittlelark Dec 2011 #46

I can't find the smilies link yet on DU3 riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #48

Neither can I ! alittlelark Dec 2011 #51

Farrah Fawcett in "Extremities" comes to mind n/t Mira Dec 2011 #76

empowering for sure trumad Dec 2011 #12

Her type of female archetype is lacking in fiction - for that alone its empowering. firehorse Dec 2011 #16

Said better than I could have. Burgman Dec 2011 #18

She's also a bisexual Aspie eridani Dec 2011 #35

I admired Lizbeth very much. Whisp Dec 2011 #41

Do you read much thriller fiction? mainer Dec 2011 #61

La Femme Nikita, Anyone? NashVegas Dec 2011 #151

Precisely. Anyone who says characters like Lisbeth are "unique" isn't reading much these days. mainer Dec 2011 #169

really....familiar with any of these: Gabi Hayes Dec 2011 #177

Da Vinci Code made me twitch. A lot. Not in good ways. boppers Dec 2011 #192

Originally I typed La Femme Nakita and ... tank girl and cat woman. But I erased them, because they firehorse Dec 2011 #213

Nikita (My misspelling) NashVegas Dec 2011 #223

I read the books and saw the swedish films.... the swedish casting was refreshing. firehorse Dec 2011 #225

I read a lot of fiction but the female characters often lack complexity and development in the arch firehorse Dec 2011 #218

"it can be very validating, healing, to those who have been victimized" redqueen Dec 2011 #101

I've only heard positive comments about the books, though I haven't read them myself. n/t tammywammy Dec 2011 #20

The first book made me very uncomfortable XemaSab Dec 2011 #21

I can certainly see that. Burgman Dec 2011 #27

I liked the portrayal of Erica Berger eridani Dec 2011 #36

I liked that he managed to stay friends with former lovers eridani Dec 2011 #39

I heard it will be graphically gory? SecurityManager Dec 2011 #26

I saw the original movie. I thought it was gross. Depravity is gross, not entertaining. nt valerief Dec 2011 #28

I enjoyed the books and the three Swedish movies. I'll probably... TreasonousBastard Dec 2011 #30

People can complain about whatever they like. redqueen Dec 2011 #102

True. And I can call silly whatever I like. I can also note that often... TreasonousBastard Dec 2011 #184

While I may disagree with it, WHAT A GREAT REVIEW to read! Burgman Dec 2011 #185

+1 boppers Dec 2011 #194

She's clearly an Aspie, I thought it was empowering for THAT riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #32

for the most part i like the book, but i think having sexual violence to prove how strong a female La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2011 #37

I think that including sexual violence, especially for women ensnared in social services riderinthestorm Dec 2011 #45

I didn't think it was exploitive. mentalsolstice Dec 2011 #42

I loved the trilogy, but haven't seen the film. If it follows the tone of the books, it won't Liquorice Dec 2011 #49

I feel asleep during the 1st movie. aletier_v Dec 2011 #50

Both, at the same time, because all women are not the same. saras Dec 2011 #52

If you are bothered by the graphic nature of the rape scenes, Are_grits_groceries Dec 2011 #55

I liked the way Lisbeth was portrayed in Dragon Tattoo LadyHawkAZ Dec 2011 #56

Torture porn. n/t retread Dec 2011 #59

I liked the first movie, but the 3rd was boring. Bucky Dec 2011 #62

Not a holiday movie, nor does 9-11 put me in the holiday mood Johonny Dec 2011 #66

The books were overrated Dorian Gray Dec 2011 #69

saw the swedish version. saw the trailer at the movies: Gabi Hayes Dec 2011 #178

The book was good storytelling Taverner Dec 2011 #84

I like the books and the movies marlakay Dec 2011 #85

exploitative mimitabby Dec 2011 #86

I thought Lisbeth was always the smartest and toughest person in the room Whisp Dec 2011 #95

My personal heroine pscot Dec 2011 #100

I can't think of a comparable American heroine like she is. Whisp Dec 2011 #103

You might like Carole O'Connell's series featuring Kathy Mallory emulatorloo Dec 2011 #111

Thanks, wrote that down. nt Whisp Dec 2011 #127

Try a few of these authors for strong heroines: mainer Dec 2011 #126

I thank you too. Whisp Dec 2011 #129

best recent kick-ass female in american film mainer Dec 2011 #136

oh, just recalled Eon Flux with Charlize Theron. Whisp Dec 2011 #198

Have read Paretsky and Barr, they are great emulatorloo Dec 2011 #134

There are plenty of books out there that are not dark Marrah_G Dec 2011 #217

I liked all three books a lot Time for change Dec 2011 #87

I loved the series. BlueMTexpat Dec 2011 #89

Agree with these thoughts on the books - TBF Dec 2011 #119

Exploitive. randome Dec 2011 #96

'action babes?' Whisp Dec 2011 #104

I liked all three movies, and all three books. Hulk Dec 2011 #97

And yet your username is 'Hulk'. randome Dec 2011 #98

You wouldn't like him when he's angry. boppers Dec 2011 #195

Well said. nm rhett o rick Dec 2011 #133

Easiest conclusion for us to make when confronted by opinions different than our own LanternWaste Dec 2011 #141

Setting people on fire might be offensive to others. tclambert Dec 2011 #130

I have read the books and seen the Swedish movies and loved them all. rhett o rick Dec 2011 #132

Saw the trilogy, did not read the books ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2011 #138

It's not the portrayal itself, redqueen Dec 2011 #140

Neither. Sometimes a movie is just a movie. OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2011 #142

I saw part of the original film, I thought it was thinly disguised porn and walked out. ThomWV Dec 2011 #143

Interesting. Burgman Dec 2011 #152

I loved the books and the Swedish films. a la izquierda Dec 2011 #158

It's a work of fiction. sendero Dec 2011 #165

I would tend to disagree. Burgman Dec 2011 #167

The book was fascinating and moved quickly. indivisibleman Dec 2011 #174

Saw it last night. It's really good. DevonRex Dec 2011 #211

I did too.. it was bloody brilliant... truebrit71 Dec 2011 #212

Neither - it's just a really fun read Politicub Dec 2011 #175

More about Stieg Larsson canoeist52 Dec 2011 #176

The Question is Problematic--There are Three Aspects to Consider... Moonwalk Dec 2011 #179

nit: per say? ITYM per se. boppers Dec 2011 #196

Good read varelse Dec 2011 #180

good movies Vattel Dec 2011 #186

i thought the swedish version of the movie was excellent madrchsod Dec 2011 #187

Empowering. DevonRex Dec 2011 #210

I think good movies often show the dark side of humanity. n/t Marrah_G Dec 2011 #215

One other thing- I am trying hard to not be offended Marrah_G Dec 2011 #216

i was wondering that myself... and don't have an answer. teh "gay sex" in the books wasn't offensive dionysus Dec 2011 #221

the books were riveting, and lisbeth is a bad-fucking-ass. swedish movies were ok (saw the first 2) dionysus Dec 2011 #220