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Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
229. I'm thinking that the term "passive-agressive" is fast becoming as meaningless as
Tue Feb 18, 2014, 11:37 AM
Feb 2014

"objectification" and "flamebait." They are terms meant to mean everything and anything but devolve into meaning nothing. Every single instance of that term has been employed to dismiss someone with whom the user disagrees without ever coming close to addressing the principle point of disagreement. It's just another -- but more haughty -- way of saying, "You're wrong and you're so wrong you aren't worth my time to explain how wrong you are so I'm just going to tell you you're wrong and leave you here in your wrongness." And off they sniff with their noses in the air, confident in their own pseudo-psychological superiority.

I asked a very straightforward question: how do we draw the lines on what defines objectification?

That the mere posing of the question has been met with such hostility seems to suggest that those taking offense don't want to define the term. I cannot conceive of any reason why this would be the case except to suggest they want the term to mean whatever they desire at any given moment so that it may be employed as a cudgel against those with whom they disagree. Anyone asking them to define the conditions under which the cudgel is employed would de facto also be defining when the cudgel cannot be employed; and I think that is the part that makes them most hostile.

If I am wrong I invite them to state their case as to why (and along the way actually address the question I the OP).

It is analogous to the way the term "racism" was employed against people opposing the Syria kerfuffle. People who had long opposed wars in Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq and elsewhere also opposed the prospect of war in Syria and yet the suggestion they were racist was employed with a startling degree of frequency. No, that's not a dismissal that racism exists or that the President might be opposed for reasons of racism over policy but by employing such tactics those doing so diminished the ability to guard against genuine instances of racism. In other words, a crass political tactic cheapened the overall ability to confront both another ill-advised war and real racism.

That's a losing strategy on all fronts.

So, what does -- or does not -- constitute objectification with regards to women expressing their physical attractiveness or allowing others to capitalize on their attractiveness?

That's as plainly and up-front as I can state the issue. Hopefully it will help others not mistake it for passive-aggressiveness.

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Should women wear make-up? [View all] Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 OP
Haven't bothered with it since 'retired,' elleng Feb 2014 #1
I totally understand. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #4
Yes, the distinction makes a real difference; elleng Feb 2014 #6
"we don't interfere, tho we make our points of view known." Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #31
Thanks. Good thoughts, elleng Feb 2014 #35
Strength, love and honor -- always. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #38
Me and baby Eddie today, elleng Feb 2014 #182
OMG! That face! Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #256
No makeup and no more hair dye and retirement is great Warpy Feb 2014 #58
Skin & hair absorb chemicals:THAT should be our major concern! Divernan Feb 2014 #109
Good to know, elleng Feb 2014 #136
I wear makeup, and I don't at all resemble the photo you've posted, SheilaT Feb 2014 #2
A woman who wears make-up is NOT a traitor to her gender Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #20
I want to make it clear that SheilaT Feb 2014 #28
If it helps Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #32
And when most of us turn 50, we become invisible Warpy Feb 2014 #76
can you please expound on man's "congenital stupidily". surely, you don't believe we'll all be agog dionysus Feb 2014 #231
While admittedly speaking in wide generalizations Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #248
thank you for elaborating on that... makes sense. if i see the SI cover, a magazine i don't buy, dionysus Feb 2014 #275
This is pretty much my situation. I don't think of makeup as adding color eridani Feb 2014 #80
I too have a very fair complexion that tends to redness. I use a very light foundation to smooth CTyankee Feb 2014 #114
I wear makeup too Carigal Feb 2014 #178
This is stupid! dem in texas Feb 2014 #3
^^^This! mimi85 Feb 2014 #276
Women should wear whatever the fuck they want. LeftyMom Feb 2014 #5
^^That Orrex Feb 2014 #100
Katherine Harris thinks so. lpbk2713 Feb 2014 #7
Anybody should wear anything they want to at any time. edbermac Feb 2014 #8
women can wear whatever they want to wear (or not wear) JI7 Feb 2014 #9
I seldom wear makeup. 3catwoman3 Feb 2014 #10
no, makeup is often cultural such as those who go for the goth look JI7 Feb 2014 #11
I'm pro-choice. JaneyVee Feb 2014 #12
Well-played. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #21
No, she isn't kcr Feb 2014 #13
I used to wear mascara and lipstick applegrove Feb 2014 #14
If they want to. bravenak Feb 2014 #15
It depends on what I'm doing. Mz Pip Feb 2014 #16
I've never worn much makeup, Blue_In_AK Feb 2014 #17
I think men should wear makeup ismnotwasm Feb 2014 #18
"I think men should wear makeup" Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #23
Yeah mines got a beard. Hates to shave ismnotwasm Feb 2014 #34
No "guyliner?" Lost_Count Feb 2014 #91
Not with that butt-ugly haircut and the half-ass beard, no jmowreader Feb 2014 #189
It's every woman's choice NV Whino Feb 2014 #19
I'm sick and tired of this nonsense. Boudica the Lyoness Feb 2014 #22
"These days women can... Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #25
You can never fully separate personal and social influence. Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #24
"There is always some consideration given to public perspective." Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #27
Who's "they?" Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #29
Whomever the "public" might be. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #33
Are the quotes meant to be a passive aggressive slight or something? Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #56
I believe you when you said NM_Birder Feb 2014 #215
"Love to know what your opinion is on why Hillary or Michelle might wear make-up." Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #218
"lover boy's" opinion is self indulgent to the point of your thread. NM_Birder Feb 2014 #226
Fair 'nuff. In another post, responding to an accusation of passive-agressiveness, I wrote -- Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #246
That was pretty much was what I expected. NM_Birder Feb 2014 #251
I have answered repeatedly throughout the thread Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #254
look-ith over there NM_Birder Feb 2014 #288
I wear makeup. Lugnut Feb 2014 #26
People who think everyone else should do exactly what they want them to are control freaks Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #30
You and I have tangled in the past. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #36
Heh... We have? Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #37
this is the bullshit. you put up this ridiculous OP, warren jumps in as reason, as if ANYONE seabeyond Feb 2014 #106
The word "objectification" is being toss around quite a lot lately. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #116
your posts of recent have been chalk full of mock, snark and insult. yes, you write cleverly. seabeyond Feb 2014 #119
What do you mean "passive aggressive insults"? I was very literal in everything I just wrote. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #126
Hell, sometimes I clash with myself. Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #286
Wait, what'd I do now? Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #287
And then there's the other extreme kcr Feb 2014 #39
Sure, which is why sane people support individual freedom that doesn't interfere w/other individuals Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #40
To you, it's authoritarians being driven buggy kcr Feb 2014 #49
I'm not saying it's not a valid discussion. Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #61
Of course it wouldn't. kcr Feb 2014 #63
How's this: If someone tells you you should- or shouldn't- wear makeup, my suggestion is Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #64
Yeah. Sorry to be such a downer kcr Feb 2014 #66
Aye, I admit to having pet peeves, too. Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #67
That's because you're purposefully framing the discussion incorrectly. Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #69
Okay, if you say so. Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #70
That's the irony of much of the libertarian movement. In it's need to reduce risk... Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #71
A yes libertarian yes harumph harumph robble robble libertarian robble. Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #72
I want women to be aware of the historical significance of makeup... Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #73
Oh. Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #74
My truly informed decision is I'll wear makeup when I feel like it... Violet_Crumble Feb 2014 #86
Well maybe they can put the question differently treestar Feb 2014 #124
To be perfectly honest, I think some of this stuff may break on geographic lines. Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #165
This is true kcr Feb 2014 #200
You live in northern Maine? MADem Feb 2014 #204
Distractions FormerOstrich Feb 2014 #41
I have always worn foundation, since I was a teen…it has protected my face from the sun's…. Tikki Feb 2014 #42
The way you describe it sounds almost like "airbrushing" Major Nikon Feb 2014 #43
Who needs butter? I've got plenty! Initech Feb 2014 #44
It's not for me to tell people how to present themselves. But as a matter of personal taste, struggle4progress Feb 2014 #45
Nope. Iggo Feb 2014 #46
Not sure what you mean... cyberswede Feb 2014 #120
Sure, women "could" wear make-up .... IF they choose to Lil Missy Feb 2014 #47
The SI kerfuffle is merely the latest in the GOP's WAR ON WOMEN, blkmusclmachine Feb 2014 #48
If they want to, sure. It shouldn't be something expected of them though. Spider Jerusalem Feb 2014 #50
Self-beautification is an art snot Feb 2014 #51
Will y'all write a news release or something when it's decided? lumberjack_jeff Feb 2014 #52
My daughter wears make up. I don't. I defend both her right to wear it and my right not to. liberal_at_heart Feb 2014 #53
to me it's not a matter of whether women should wear makeup fizzgig Feb 2014 #54
"Traitor to her gender"? Scootaloo Feb 2014 #55
someone had a poutrage over your post hobbit709 Feb 2014 #90
You're the fourth person to tell me so Scootaloo Feb 2014 #94
The problem is that the poutragers never see themselves as part of the problem. hobbit709 Feb 2014 #96
So, is that a "yes" on being a gender traitor? Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #101
Your logic is more tortured than the plot of a Shyamalan film Scootaloo Feb 2014 #104
Let's see if we can sort this out. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #117
thank you. exactly. totally offensive in the passive aggressive slap across the face. nt seabeyond Feb 2014 #107
You take exception to the term "gender traitor" and then accuse me of everything Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #129
I used to pretend I didn't understand my passive-aggressive comments as such too.. LanternWaste Feb 2014 #151
Pretense is a wonderful way to hide behind that which we're too cowardly to say openly. Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #223
I'm thinking that the term "passive-agressive" is fast becoming as meaningless as Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #229
I've said that all along about the owner of this website. Sheldon Cooper Feb 2014 #128
I have been saying it too, since the inception of DU3. Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #237
Beautifully put! Squinch Feb 2014 #132
ding ding. geek tragedy Feb 2014 #224
what other people want to do is not my business. hollysmom Feb 2014 #57
I think people wear make-up for any number of reasons. and I agree with your post. Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #238
i think a lot of people look great with make-up orleans Feb 2014 #59
EYE MAKE UP OR ART trueblue2007 Feb 2014 #60
That was pretty cool Marrah_G Feb 2014 #102
art... madrchsod Feb 2014 #202
It worked for David Bowie. Depends what kinda look she wants to pull off. nt alp227 Feb 2014 #62
A woman can do whatever she wants newfie11 Feb 2014 #65
Woman should wear makeup if they CHOOSE to. If they CHOOSE to, then it is nobodies else's business. patricia92243 Feb 2014 #68
as long as it's not mandatory, I don't give a rats butt eShirl Feb 2014 #75
Her choice Half-Century Man Feb 2014 #77
doesn't eliot spitzer wear eyeliner ? JI7 Feb 2014 #78
Can you pan down to the socks? PassingFair Feb 2014 #222
Joanna Russ on makeup eridani Feb 2014 #79
Especially for some groups of women, make-up is compulsory if you want to be taken seriously KitSileya Feb 2014 #159
^ great post, thank you, eridani ^ Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #239
That is a personal choice.. sendero Feb 2014 #81
Nope, but I love photoshop greymattermom Feb 2014 #82
If they want to. PeteSelman Feb 2014 #83
From a male's perspective davidpdx Feb 2014 #84
You THINK you dislike make-up. And "fat"is not the same topic at all. WinkyDink Feb 2014 #89
So davidpdx Feb 2014 #92
A woman should not feel pressure either way liberal N proud Feb 2014 #85
That is indeed the point. idendoit Feb 2014 #268
Personal choice. RiffRandell Feb 2014 #87
Women have been wearing make-up since before Cleopatra VII. People get hair-cuts. They shave. It's WinkyDink Feb 2014 #88
If they WANT TO!.. It's their choice, and theirs alone! N/T Ghost in the Machine Feb 2014 #93
I wear make up. HappyMe Feb 2014 #95
Personal choice MadrasT Feb 2014 #97
What we need here is some good door to door work and some tracts: The Straight Story Feb 2014 #98
None of your business blueamy66 Feb 2014 #99
Actually... shedevil69taz Feb 2014 #203
Can't do it. blueamy66 Feb 2014 #241
I used to be that way too... shedevil69taz Feb 2014 #282
My hair is not too thick... blueamy66 Feb 2014 #284
none of my business and ya nuclear, i know you have been mystified of late. if you actually seabeyond Feb 2014 #103
if they want, only caveat should be please know how to and what works loli phabay Feb 2014 #105
Should a woman flamebait? Squinch Feb 2014 #108
^^^ thread win ^^^ MadrasT Feb 2014 #110
I would imagine that would be her choice. HappyMe Feb 2014 #113
The term "flamebait" is also losing its meaning. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #130
It's becoming impossible to have a somewhat intelligent conversation. reusrename Feb 2014 #191
I think women should do as they please about makeup. MineralMan Feb 2014 #111
I think I have a solution to this issue... brooklynite Feb 2014 #112
I think I have a solution to your solution... TeeYiYi Feb 2014 #141
It should be an individual choice, but... cyberswede Feb 2014 #115
Women should do whatever the hell they want to do. Chorophyll Feb 2014 #118
It should be up to the individual, but treestar Feb 2014 #121
That is up to the individual. hrmjustin Feb 2014 #122
Complicated subject.... Adrahil Feb 2014 #123
A flamewar about makeup? rug Feb 2014 #125
I don't wear make up unless I'm attending a meeting, conference malaise Feb 2014 #127
Seriously, I haven't worn makeup since my hot flashes kicked in catbyte Feb 2014 #131
I do. And I won't apologize to anyone... WorseBeforeBetter Feb 2014 #133
...and there it is. HappyMe Feb 2014 #166
There's a balance between society's needs and our own. noamnety Feb 2014 #134
Should I have an opinion about what others choose to wear? Let me think and Coyotl Feb 2014 #135
I'm pro-choice tallahasseedem Feb 2014 #137
I don't wear make-up. 840high Feb 2014 #138
They should do whatever they want to do bigwillq Feb 2014 #139
PEOPLE should wear whatever the hell they want BainsBane Feb 2014 #140
Including swimwear. pintobean Feb 2014 #144
LOL BainsBane Feb 2014 #146
Are you saying they're forced pintobean Feb 2014 #150
There are some basic things one assumes anyone knows BainsBane Feb 2014 #156
It always comes down to insults. pintobean Feb 2014 #163
Clearly you don't need to discuss anything with me anyway BainsBane Feb 2014 #168
Gaga is kind of like a model right? All image? snooper2 Feb 2014 #221
Are you arguing someone forced them to take the picture??? really?? nt Logical Feb 2014 #160
I'm arguing they are models, which no one should have to argue since it is basic fact. BainsBane Feb 2014 #169
When did I complain about the gender wars? links please. n-t Logical Feb 2014 #170
This answers all your questions BainsBane Feb 2014 #174
I have a lot of link I woud like to send you also. n-t Logical Feb 2014 #176
You stayed out of these threads? muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #214
Not to mention the "prepubescent boys" thread pintobean Feb 2014 #227
that second thread was about apes BainsBane Feb 2014 #244
You said the 2nd thread was about male privilege, and mentioned SI in it yourself muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #247
Now you point to an entirely different post BainsBane Feb 2014 #250
I talked about threads, as you did, until now muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #252
I meant post. Obviously I didn't reread the whole thread. BainsBane Feb 2014 #257
If your posting habits aren't our concern, then don't tell us "I stayed out of those threads" muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #259
How to get a bikini body eridani Feb 2014 #207
The criticism in that case gollygee Feb 2014 #212
I take it you have never seen G. Gordon Liddy's whistler162 Feb 2014 #194
No, but I suspect you may have a valid point there. BainsBane Feb 2014 #195
+1 YoungDemCA Feb 2014 #205
I'll leave that up to the women in question. n/t Comrade Grumpy Feb 2014 #142
I don't wear makeup in order to appeal to men, and even if I did, Heidi Feb 2014 #143
if she wants to, sure. Scout Feb 2014 #145
Yes, but only on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and 3-day weekends. DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2014 #147
I don't pretend to know. However, I also don't pretend to know... LanternWaste Feb 2014 #148
my opinion has no relevance it should be up to them dembotoz Feb 2014 #149
if they want to Puzzledtraveller Feb 2014 #152
It's their choice itsrobert Feb 2014 #153
You can have my make up case Butterbean Feb 2014 #154
Yes, they should and so should men. There was a time men Cleita Feb 2014 #155
I have great naturally white hair, but.... northoftheborder Feb 2014 #157
as long as they have their husband's permission and it has been thoroughly tested on animals nt arely staircase Feb 2014 #158
i wish men wore makeup. nt La Lioness Priyanka Feb 2014 #161
Some do!! retread Feb 2014 #162
I wore it in high school. Codeine Feb 2014 #216
If women want to wear makeup, they should. If they don't, they shouldn't. Seems pretty simple nt. Ex Lurker Feb 2014 #164
Men and women should be forced to shave their heads NM_Birder Feb 2014 #167
+1 tallahasseedem Feb 2014 #172
We must write to or await instructions HappyMe Feb 2014 #173
Also if a woman can gain monetary advantage by using Cleita Feb 2014 #177
an actress or model ? NM_Birder Feb 2014 #213
I wouldn't even go out to walk my dog without makeup. RebelOne Feb 2014 #171
Good luck with your surgery, RebelOne! Sissyk Feb 2014 #187
Thanks, Sissyk. n/t RebelOne Feb 2014 #192
I'm with you! (Only I say "To get my newspaper"!) WinkyDink Feb 2014 #209
Personally I think most women look better without it mythology Feb 2014 #175
Young women look good without it. The rest of us need help Cleita Feb 2014 #179
I generally don't care The empressof all Feb 2014 #180
Only if they want to. Chan790 Feb 2014 #181
This is a woman's choice, if she feels good with the makeup then go for it. Thinkingabout Feb 2014 #183
Sure, if they want to. frogmarch Feb 2014 #184
What horrible advice. rrneck Feb 2014 #196
Skipped all the other responses. Mine? A woman should wear make-up only if she wants to. WillowTree Feb 2014 #185
Personally, I think men should. CrispyQ Feb 2014 #186
As I hope any feminist would agree, this should be up to individual women themselves. anti partisan Feb 2014 #188
Free will. LWolf Feb 2014 #190
I don't and never have. texanwitch Feb 2014 #193
I've always worn some makeup. llmart Feb 2014 #197
I just want to hug you. Cleita Feb 2014 #198
Awww...you're sweet. llmart Feb 2014 #217
If they want to, they should be able to LadyHawkAZ Feb 2014 #199
what business is it of yours? TorchTheWitch Feb 2014 #201
"Not only do you want to tell other women -- " Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #260
Sure, why not? AgingAmerican Feb 2014 #206
Only if it doesn't clash with their burkas. Waiting For Everyman Feb 2014 #208
If they want to. n/t gollygee Feb 2014 #210
Well: TheMathieu Feb 2014 #211
SMH/NT DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2014 #219
No, women should be told what to wear by men. Rex Feb 2014 #220
Women should be able to wear whatever they want without geek tragedy Feb 2014 #225
Many replies like this, but I'll address this one. Adrahil Feb 2014 #228
you're mixed up on a couple of points: geek tragedy Feb 2014 #230
I disagree.... Adrahil Feb 2014 #232
So you're saying that Scottish men who wear kilts geek tragedy Feb 2014 #233
Now don't get silly.... Adrahil Feb 2014 #235
this conversation started off clearly ridiculous geek tragedy Feb 2014 #236
I also think PasadenaTrudy Feb 2014 #242
Yes.... Adrahil Feb 2014 #243
True true PasadenaTrudy Feb 2014 #245
I have never worn make-up, not even once. My Mother likewise, etc. for millions of years. Coyotl Feb 2014 #234
it's an individual choice. Beacool Feb 2014 #240
"Should" is not applicable - it's not a decision with moral consequences. Donald Ian Rankin Feb 2014 #249
"It doesn't benefit or harm anyone else, so it's entirely a personal decision." Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #261
Is it immoral to wear a suit? Donald Ian Rankin Feb 2014 #262
"I could also suggest that Joe Biden is an baby-eating space crab from Mars." Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #263
Sure JustAnotherGen Feb 2014 #253
If they want to KamaAina Feb 2014 #255
DU "Gender Wars" have officially jumped the shark with this thread UncleMuscles Feb 2014 #258
Sure… why not, if you want to wear it? MrMickeysMom Feb 2014 #264
I wear very little. a la izquierda Feb 2014 #265
make-up wearing female here & I don't give a damn what anyone else does Duppers Feb 2014 #266
I think women who want to wear makeup should ohheckyeah Feb 2014 #267
If They Want To Wolf Frankula Feb 2014 #269
Some of it provides for uba and uva protection. Also some may have an obvious mark or scar they lonestarnot Feb 2014 #270
I have seen the sun protection argument elsewhere in this thread Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #271
Maybe more do than care to admit. lonestarnot Feb 2014 #272
I'm afraid I'll have to register myself a skeptic of that assertion absent any foundation for it. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #273
tee hee. lonestarnot Feb 2014 #274
It can only help if it's done right. CFLDem Feb 2014 #277
"You are wearing makeup?" HockeyMom Feb 2014 #278
The question has no answer. Because no two women wear makeup for the same reasons. Glassunion Feb 2014 #279
Only if they want to. ileus Feb 2014 #280
Only if they want to. Autumn Feb 2014 #281
Gave up make up in 1979, no one has complained since demigoddess Feb 2014 #283
Up to you jmowreader Feb 2014 #285
First Post on DU Token Republican Feb 2014 #289
Too much information. Curmudgeoness Feb 2014 #290
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Should women wear make-up...»Reply #229