General Discussion

proudretiredvet

(312 posts)

138. They would still kill each other as efficiently as they could

Mon Feb 24, 2014, 12:32 PM

Feb 2014

Before there were guns people all over the world still murdered, fought wars and killed each other when they decided to. So the guns did not do all of that people did all of that.
Mankind has always used the weapons at hand to kill each other. That is just factual history. You can not really come up with facts in this except they did the best they could to kill each other with what they had.
The most deaths in history by "mans hands" came about when one side was much better armed than the other. That side could, and did, kill as they wished with nothing to stop them.
In my mind when you take the firearms out of the hands of law abiding people but are completely unable to confiscate the firearms out of the hands of the criminals you end up in the same situation. An example of this is just south of us.
Look at Mexico right now and back over the last 10 years. The criminals have the guns. The citizens, due to very strict gun control, do not have the guns. The criminals are killing the civilians by the tens of thousands.

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WOW: Guns to surpass car accidents as leading cause of deaths among young people [View all] kpete Feb 2014 OP

Both are dropping, but vehicle deaths are dropping much faster. Lizzie Poppet Feb 2014 #1

Gun deaths vs gun injuries. ManiacJoe Feb 2014 #57

Gun-related homicide has seen the same trend. Lizzie Poppet Feb 2014 #59

But access to an in home gun makes suicide by gun more likely. tblue37 Feb 2014 #88

Cars can be made safer... awoke_in_2003 Feb 2014 #89

I WiSH I could say I'm surprised, but sadly.... hlthe2b Feb 2014 #2

Why would gun owners hold against you a preference to not see youth car deaths decrease? aikoaiko Feb 2014 #4

Wow.. you haven't been around here over the past year(s) much, have you? hlthe2b Feb 2014 #5

Don't worry. Insults to pro-2A DUers are "hide-proof." Eleanors38 Feb 2014 #100

Wait for self driving cars. It will drop even more. n-t Logical Feb 2014 #3

This is great news! Bad Thoughts Feb 2014 #6

THIS!!!!!! BrotherIvan Feb 2014 #22

Most legal gun owners tend to agree about safe storage. blueridge3210 Feb 2014 #35

But we are talking about 'kids' 15 to 24. AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #120

I have some heart burn about this one too. proudretiredvet Feb 2014 #123

Your post points to an issue that is great concern to me BrotherIvan Feb 2014 #127

Well, most (all? not sure, certainly most) states have a waiting period for handguns. AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #129

Less guns is the only one I can come up with. BrotherIvan Feb 2014 #131

OK I'm in proudretiredvet Feb 2014 #122

So what can be done? Nothing? BrotherIvan Feb 2014 #130

Well, I may not know much, but I know this AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #133

I know, and it is part of what is making us a 2nd world country BrotherIvan Feb 2014 #134

Canada and Europe do not have the second amendment and your not going to get your way. proudretiredvet Feb 2014 #137

It's probably true that for the time being there's not going to be any sanity in our gun laws. DanTex Feb 2014 #145

Not surprising. In any nation that largely forbids firearm ownership it is only obvious ... spin Feb 2014 #176

I stopped reading when I got to the "gang violence" talking point. DanTex Feb 2014 #180

So if your think that gang violence which accounts for 12% of all homicides is insignificant ... spin Feb 2014 #181

Not quite "insiginficant", but certainly not "the main cause" as many many pro-gunners claim. DanTex Feb 2014 #182

The choice is to try to finds a number of different ways to reduce gun violence. ... spin Feb 2014 #183

Universal background checks would be a step in the right direction. DanTex Feb 2014 #185

My point is that largely we gave the gun lobby and the GOP the ability ... spin Feb 2014 #186

The AWB was dropped, and it still failed. DanTex Feb 2014 #187

There is no doubt that our opinions on a good appraoch to gun control differ but I still feel ... spin Feb 2014 #189

We've tried your approach, it hasn't worked. DanTex Feb 2014 #190

I do remember the background check vote and that also that it had overwhelming public support. ... spin Feb 2014 #210

Going after the AWB didn't make any difference in the background check vote. DanTex Feb 2014 #212

Since I hope to see some improvements to our national gun laws ... spin Feb 2014 #216

Delete. Replied to wrong post. (n/t) spin Feb 2014 #188

Post removed Post removed Feb 2014 #7

Um... tosh Feb 2014 #9

What Are Gang Bangers? otohara Feb 2014 #10

Gang members that shoot at each other. badtoworse Feb 2014 #11

Brown people. Iggo Feb 2014 #29

Yep. ForgoTheConsequence Feb 2014 #32

Evidence of racism? blueridge3210 Feb 2014 #36

He said "gang bangers". ForgoTheConsequence Feb 2014 #37

there are no white gangs? Duckhunter935 Feb 2014 #39

I'm sure there are. ForgoTheConsequence Feb 2014 #40

I don't like the term...precisely because of that association. Lizzie Poppet Feb 2014 #62

Yeah, white kids are called gangbangers all the time. Iggo Feb 2014 #73

And some whites listen to gangsta rap Capt. Obvious Feb 2014 #177

So when you hear the term "gang banger" blueridge3210 Feb 2014 #41

I don't. ForgoTheConsequence Feb 2014 #42

Not "defending" anything. blueridge3210 Feb 2014 #43

Since by any measure gang members who are white are a TINY minority of gang members Gormy Cuss Feb 2014 #168

Riiiggghttt Capt. Obvious Feb 2014 #178

Trayvon Martin Was Called A Gangbanger otohara Feb 2014 #61

And the OKC bomber was called a terrorist... Iggo Feb 2014 #70

Hmmm JJChambers Feb 2014 #75

That's bullshit. There are gangs of every ethnicity badtoworse Feb 2014 #84

I am unaware of any instances of someone using "gangbanger" in reference to white kids. Iggo Feb 2014 #86

You thought wrong, what can I say. badtoworse Feb 2014 #96

This is a geographical issue. AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #124

In my neck of the woods, those "gangbangers" would be Hispanic Packerowner740 Feb 2014 #109

billie bangers father founding Feb 2014 #144

Two things.... Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #12

Vehicular deaths are accidents. Deaths from gang violence are intentional. badtoworse Feb 2014 #14

Many deaths from guns are intentional. Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #15

I think I see the point he is trying to make JJChambers Feb 2014 #19

A person who likes to speed is more likely to be killed in an accident Bjorn Against Feb 2014 #48

How about Crepuscular Feb 2014 #55

No, reporting all the numbers is the most reasonable thing to do Bjorn Against Feb 2014 #58

Including suicides is misleading JJChambers Feb 2014 #64

Access to guns makes suicide far more likely Bjorn Against Feb 2014 #66

I guess you missed post #16 JJChambers Feb 2014 #67

People would resort to other means they are more likely to survive Bjorn Against Feb 2014 #68

I don't think so JJChambers Feb 2014 #77

If that were the case I would be dead right now Bjorn Against Feb 2014 #79

I'm not about to disagree with your life experience JJChambers Feb 2014 #81

That chart only lists a small number of countries which were cherry picked to make a point Bjorn Against Feb 2014 #83

That graph shows Crepuscular Feb 2014 #93

So, how do the Japanese succeed so well sans guns? Eleanors38 Feb 2014 #101

No one claimed that suicides don't happen without guns Bjorn Against Feb 2014 #103

FAR more? I seriously doubt that. Lizzie Poppet Feb 2014 #69

The reseach disagrees with you... Bjorn Against Feb 2014 #76

So... JJChambers Feb 2014 #78

Yes, it would plummet in the absence of guns Bjorn Against Feb 2014 #82

Yes, that is what the data and the research implies. DanTex Feb 2014 #108

What if we treated suicidal depression instead? Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #191

What's this "instead"? DanTex Feb 2014 #193

"I'm all for improving healthcare. But I never think of it as an alternative to improving gun laws." Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #194

LOL. Somewhere I read that conservatives are not comfortable with nuance... DanTex Feb 2014 #195

"Gun control saves lives." Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #196

OK, so now we get down to the heart of the matter. DanTex Feb 2014 #197

"You probably don't believe global warming is real either." Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #198

LOL. "Debunked studies". DanTex Feb 2014 #199

What laws would you propose that would pass constitutional and electoral muster? Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #200

Electoral muster. The John Beohner test. Interesting standard there. DanTex Feb 2014 #201

electoral = of the electorate = the voters. Congress = congressional. I wrote electoral. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #202

I don't think you understand our system of government. DanTex Feb 2014 #203

I was referring to how a gun control law passed a Democratic-controlled state house and a Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #204

Yes, we should base all our policies on the outcomes of two special state congress elections. DanTex Feb 2014 #205

"I'm in favor of handgun registration and licensing" Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #206

By making it harder to go out and buy a gun on a whim, and reducing irresponsible gun ownership. DanTex Feb 2014 #207

Waiting periods are the check to whim purchasing. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2014 #208

Waiting periods would be good too. DanTex Feb 2014 #209

Hyperbole Crepuscular Feb 2014 #92

There is no logic in the comparison. That's my point badtoworse Feb 2014 #20

But you didn't say "remove homicides from the statistics". You said "remove gang bangers" muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #114

The deceased in each case did not intend to die. The comparison is appropriate. morningfog Feb 2014 #51

Fail. Agschmid Feb 2014 #17

The implicit assumption is that if guns were unavailable, the gang violence would not have occurred. badtoworse Feb 2014 #21

So if gang members had no guns they would still kill each other at the same rate? n-t Logical Feb 2014 #26

Apparently... Seems off base to me. Agschmid Feb 2014 #52

There is no way to know how many deaths would occur using other weapons badtoworse Feb 2014 #80

They would still kill each other as efficiently as they could proudretiredvet Feb 2014 #138

That's simply not true. DanTex Feb 2014 #147

What exact part of that is not true? proudretiredvet Feb 2014 #151

This part: DanTex Feb 2014 #152

I do not agree with your assertions. proudretiredvet Mar 2014 #217

Once we relax the war on drugs, that should go a long way NickB79 Feb 2014 #45

because, see, gang bangers don't count when talking about gun humpers? Skittles Feb 2014 #50

I know it's GD AlertProof, but could you drop the sex crap? Thanx! Eleanors38 Feb 2014 #102

Even habitual criminals' deaths are important. Lizzie Poppet Feb 2014 #60

Of course every life is important badtoworse Feb 2014 #85

Agreed: it is an absurd, disingenuous comparison. Lizzie Poppet Feb 2014 #98

There's a link between group sex and gun violence? JVS Feb 2014 #72

They reject that reality, man. Gang violence is the main cause of gun homicide. But Skip Intro Feb 2014 #91

This post just blows my mind. Skinner Feb 2014 #97

You're wrong. And here's why... Eleanors38 Feb 2014 #104

Many folks at GD also don't like to be reminded that the world is flat. ieoeja Feb 2014 #161

Bullshit. n/t Skip Intro Feb 2014 #164

I can't expect to reason with the guy with the gun in his screen name but... CreekDog Feb 2014 #166

Synthetic charges of racism are a creature of your own id. Eleanors38 Feb 2014 #171

This message was self-deleted by its author CreekDog Feb 2014 #174

I think it's actually rather the opposite. LAGC Feb 2014 #111

I don't mean to blow your mind. Skip Intro Feb 2014 #118

yeah, we know you "like the place" Skittles Feb 2014 #135

Why? Skip Intro Feb 2014 #158

Well not only the lives of gang bangers, but they've written off the victims of the gang bangers CreekDog Feb 2014 #167

Thank you. Jamastiene Feb 2014 #175

Just for the record, gang violence is not the main cause of gun homicide. DanTex Feb 2014 #179

WTF?!? According to 2011 FBI stats, one of the lowest causes of gun homicides is "gang related". ieoeja Feb 2014 #160

Bullshit. See post 164. n/t Skip Intro Feb 2014 #165

that's funny, i didn't see you call Skinner's post "bullshit" CreekDog Feb 2014 #169

Skinner's post wasn't bullshit. n/t Skip Intro Feb 2014 #172

neither was the one you did call "bullshit" CreekDog Feb 2014 #173

I wonder how many of those young people were getting blown up/killed in war valerief Feb 2014 #8

Young people aren't buying cars like they used to JimDandy Feb 2014 #13

Have any facts to back that up? Agschmid Feb 2014 #18

The fact that they're buying fewer cars is proof seattledo Feb 2014 #44

Why Don't Young Americans Buy Cars? - The Atlantic NickB79 Feb 2014 #46

Thanks. Agschmid Feb 2014 #53

You see this change quite vividly in the motorcycle marketplace. Lizzie Poppet Feb 2014 #65

THey also are driving "less" than previous generations etherealtruth Feb 2014 #54

That graphic Crepuscular Feb 2014 #16

It would be more accurate to say rrneck Feb 2014 #23

Firearm or Vehicle Pedoviejo2 Feb 2014 #24

How much of this is related to gang violence, drug cartels and other criminal organizations? LittleBlue Feb 2014 #25

Very little. According to FBI 2011 report, "gang related" is one of the fewest causes of homicides. ieoeja Feb 2014 #162

The price we are forced to pay to keep gun fanciers happy. Hoyt Feb 2014 #27

Yep. What's a few dead kids Demobrat Feb 2014 #163

Why the huge drop sarisataka Feb 2014 #28

Just a guess Crepuscular Feb 2014 #31

Airbags and better trauma medicine. nt laundry_queen Feb 2014 #49

Yes to both of those. nt awoke_in_2003 Feb 2014 #90

Because things like regulations work. ForgoTheConsequence Feb 2014 #33

Because of accidents with automobiles. blueridge3210 Feb 2014 #38

What regulations were enacted at the beginning of that sharp decline? Lizzie Poppet Feb 2014 #63

Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act ForgoTheConsequence Feb 2014 #87

This message was self-deleted by its author Lizzie Poppet Feb 2014 #99

Stop with the gratuitous insults, OK? nt Eleanors38 Feb 2014 #105

It's a useful heads-up, IMO. Lizzie Poppet Feb 2014 #211

The engineers are making it harder to die in car accidents. ManiacJoe Feb 2014 #56

The youth suicide rate is stubbornly constant hack89 Feb 2014 #30

Comparing true accidents with deliberate acts (ie suicide and crime) is disingenuous. nt hack89 Feb 2014 #34

The talking point came in at 11:33... IveWornAHundredPants Feb 2014 #71

You do have a point. Rex Feb 2014 #94

No, it misses the point. SunSeeker Feb 2014 #113

Shouldn't that be 'successful suicide'? AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #125

Suicide should be left out of the comparison seveneyes Feb 2014 #47

...and had spread to the lower echelons by 1:38. IveWornAHundredPants Feb 2014 #74

And still unrefuted the next day. Eleanors38 Feb 2014 #106

Suicide absolutely should be counted. Guns increase suicide 5 times. SunSeeker Feb 2014 #112

Yet Japan's suicide rate is MUCH higher than ours. LAGC Feb 2014 #115

It is well established that guns increase the risk of suicide. SunSeeker Feb 2014 #116

It also has a lot to do with how suicides are counted in Japan. oneshooter Feb 2014 #117

Really? AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #132

That is why the murder rate in Japan is so low, everybody suicides. n/t oneshooter Feb 2014 #153

Oh, we're not entirely free from that sort of thing. AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #128

There is already a very successful model to follow: Australia. SunSeeker Feb 2014 #141

That could work. AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #142

We don't need to change the Constitution, we just need to read it correctly. SunSeeker Feb 2014 #146

That's the logic the right wing uses to stack the courts to attack Roe vs. Wade. AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #148

It is a very viable tactic. It has worked for the GOP. SunSeeker Feb 2014 #149

Sure, I agree the right is not unlimited. AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #150

An Australian-style buy-back program would avoid all those issues and be extremely successful. SunSeeker Feb 2014 #154

I don't know, that is a strange sort of behavior. AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #155

The GOP is like that in EVERY state. nt SunSeeker Feb 2014 #156

But ineffective in most states. AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #157

I WISH. 29 of our 50 states have GOP governors. That's a majority. SunSeeker Feb 2014 #159

Suicide absolutely should be included. ANY analysis of guns that ignores suicides is pointless Recursion Feb 2014 #119

We are talking about causes of death alarimer Feb 2014 #214

Well then, I guess old age has them all beat seveneyes Feb 2014 #215

Did you know that unintentional injuries are the leading cause of death for young people? Rex Feb 2014 #95

Obviously, teens can't afford the gas Demeter Feb 2014 #107

It's a republican dream. Turbineguy Feb 2014 #110

There is a very interesting correlation in this thread concerning numbers. Ikonoklast Feb 2014 #121

Thank you Ralph Nader. joshcryer Feb 2014 #126

I'd like to see deaths related alcohol overlaid on this. NT Adrahil Feb 2014 #136

1/3 of drunk driving deaths are teens KurtNYC Feb 2014 #139

Pretty good estimate. Here's more... Adrahil Feb 2014 #140

straw man father founding Feb 2014 #143

Gun deaths are falling; it appears to me that both are falling, so it's good news all around. NYC_SKP Feb 2014 #170

But whatever you do, don't say the words "suicide" or "men". lumberjack_jeff Feb 2014 #184

confiscate all guns and melt them down. PowerToThePeople Feb 2014 #192

Cars have gotten a lot safer in 14 years; guns, not so much. alarimer Feb 2014 #213