General Discussion

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)

112. Sorry pal. The law isn't the problem.

Reply to scheming daemons (Original post)

Thu Mar 22, 2012, 04:08 PM

Mar 2012

The problem is this specific police department's interpretation/application of it. (as well as the District Attorney)

No law is worth a shit if it isn't properly enforced. 'Stand your ground' does not imply (even though it is non-legal shorthand for no duty to retreat) getting out of your car, chasing down someone who isn't doing anything illegal, and initiating a confrontation with them, in which that person might feel threatened.

It is entirely self-evident, even to the gun-carrying community within DU, that what Zimmerman did was wrong, and is not entitled to shelter under the stand your ground law.

Predictions:

Zimmerman will be going to trial over this, both civil and criminal.
DA loses his job.
Police Department gets reamed out by the FBI over civil rights abuses.

None of that is a reflection upon this law. IT IS NOT SELF DEFENSE to go out of your way to accost another human being. If Trayvon had survived, and Zimmerman died, the law would have sheltered Trayvon, if properly applied. Trayvon, being the victim defending himself.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

241 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

the number of posts saying "this in no way is a defense of Zimmerman" is astounding [View all] scheming daemons Mar 2012 OP

Hear hear. Chorophyll Mar 2012 #1

This in no way is a defense of Zimmerman, but... Liberal Veteran Mar 2012 #2

What if there wasnt that particular law in this case? Puzzledtraveller Mar 2012 #32

If there wasn't a SYG law, it seems less likely that one could avoid.... Liberal Veteran Mar 2012 #56

Unlikely. X_Digger Mar 2012 #59

Really does not matter what law "is" -- it's how those who carry guns in public perceive it. Hoyt Mar 2012 #180

Nope, think it was totally intended lark Mar 2012 #88

Bullshit. The law and the act are entirely separate dmallind Mar 2012 #3

the law enabled the act....no arrests, no grand jury....nada spanone Mar 2012 #17

More like a gross misrepresentation of the law... Lost-in-FL Mar 2012 #27

Not in any way, shape or form. PavePusher Mar 2012 #47

your interpretation doesn't matter DisgustipatedinCA Mar 2012 #136

a grand jury was covened two days ago. SemperEadem Mar 2012 #64

Don't bother me with facts, son, I'm on a roll here! X_Digger Mar 2012 #65

lol! SemperEadem Mar 2012 #67

stay tuned. dmallind Mar 2012 #85

Lol ummm except that the law was the EXACT LAW that the POLICE cited DFab420 Mar 2012 #19

Disagree. Lost-in-FL Mar 2012 #39

The police still cited this specific law as the reason Zimmerman wasn't arrested. Gore1FL Mar 2012 #58

They said they didn't have probable cause. We're not going to repeal the 5th amendment. X_Digger Mar 2012 #68

Probable cause for what? Lost-in-FL Mar 2012 #73

Probable cause for arrest. (It's always required, regardless of SYG.) X_Digger Mar 2012 #76

How sad and frustrating for the family this must be. Lost-in-FL Mar 2012 #83

No doubt. n/t X_Digger Mar 2012 #84

"Probable cause" considering their interpretation of "Get a Gun and Stand Your Ground." Hoyt Mar 2012 #182

And they are still wrong cause that law doesn't even apply to this situation (even when it was used) Lost-in-FL Mar 2012 #70

and still hasn't been arrested when lots of evidence has been presented. AnotherDreamWeaver Mar 2012 #42

stay tuned. dmallind Mar 2012 #87

Irrational love of guns lark Mar 2012 #91

Was it irrational for that boy to be afraid of that gun, I don't follow, a gun is by design deadly Dragonfli Mar 2012 #165

Ah yes, there's that line I love so much... RevStPatrick Mar 2012 #190

Because ... Straw Man Mar 2012 #228

And there's that other line I love so much... RevStPatrick Mar 2012 #238

this in no way is a defense of Zimmerman phleshdef Mar 2012 #4

It is disturbing - nt Ohio Joe Mar 2012 #5

First, please define "gun nut." Secondly, Zimmerman can not use the new law leftofcool Mar 2012 #6

Gun Nut: Someone who is so devoted to a machine of war that they cannot, will not DFab420 Mar 2012 #22

K&R... stonecutter357 Mar 2012 #40

Incoherent and irrelevent. n/t PavePusher Mar 2012 #48

Lol there is nothing incoherent about it.. trying reading it again. This time try saying aloud the DFab420 Mar 2012 #79

Actually the statement is correct. Remmah2 Mar 2012 #106

This message was self-deleted by its author Zoeisright Mar 2012 #152

Struck too close to home, I see. Made you uncomfortable. Ikonoklast Mar 2012 #144

Lack of empathy? WTF? PavePusher Mar 2012 #150

I agree fightthegoodfightnow Mar 2012 #167

It's not nice to stereotype. Remmah2 Mar 2012 #208

Why? Because YOU can't understand it? Zoeisright Mar 2012 #153

Not if you can read and comprehend English, just sayin' /nt Dragonfli Mar 2012 #168

....... BlancheSplanchnik Mar 2012 #203

The cartoon speaks for what it is. nt Remmah2 Mar 2012 #209

Well, except for the fact... PavePusher Mar 2012 #210

Actually we just respond to being abused. Remmah2 Mar 2012 #99

We will try to be more sensitive to your pain and suffering, no one should ever be harmed by Dragonfli Mar 2012 #171

Stay out of your car then. nt Remmah2 Mar 2012 #187

False Equivalence. Fail. n/t BlancheSplanchnik Mar 2012 #202

Is that the whole substance of the counter arguement? Remmah2 Mar 2012 #205

no need to say anything further. The logical fallacy is evident. n/t BlancheSplanchnik Mar 2012 #218

No. It isn't. Straw Man Mar 2012 #232

for an illustration of your argument, BlancheSplanchnik Mar 2012 #235

OH MY GOD all my guns are broken! AtheistCrusader Mar 2012 #117

Whew! Ok good OriginalGeek Mar 2012 #137

Has anyone ever heard of a gun owner who was NOT a "responsible" gun owner? I think not. eom xtraxritical Mar 2012 #174

Even the ones like Zimmerman were consider "responsible" gun owners right up until . . . . . . Hoyt Mar 2012 #216

great post n/t stanwyck Mar 2012 #196

A Gunophiliac NBachers Mar 2012 #173

Agreed! nt chiffon Mar 2012 #7

This is in no way... nadinbrzezinski Mar 2012 #8

True, Sir, It is Like The 'I'm No Racist, But...' Pre-Amble The Magistrate Mar 2012 #9

"If you feel the need to preface your post" ZombieHorde Mar 2012 #10

I think it's pretty understandable...But if you want to be obtuse, I'll jump through your hoops. DFab420 Mar 2012 #14

How certain are you of your interpretation of that phrase? ZombieHorde Mar 2012 #24

You wouldn't need to preface it. Gore1FL Mar 2012 #61

I agree the preface is unneeded, and can be considered wordy. ZombieHorde Mar 2012 #170

It can be a way of expressing a nuanced opinion RZM Mar 2012 #71

This is in no way a defense of Zimmerman but I don't think he should be strung up tularetom Mar 2012 #11

That's fine. But how about the at least arrest him as a suspect and charge him with at DFab420 Mar 2012 #18

Thank you, thank you, thank you. montanto Mar 2012 #69

Those who carry guns are ready to play judge/jury/executioner without benefit of trial. Hoyt Mar 2012 #183

And the President shall lead them. OnyxCollie Mar 2012 #200

Once we get guns restricted, we can go after drones. Hoyt Mar 2012 #214

How 'bout we just restrict killing w/out trial instead? nt OnyxCollie Mar 2012 #215

The "Gungeon" is the only group in DU that routinely advocates in favor of republicans.... Walk away Mar 2012 #12

Sigh Remmah2 Mar 2012 #23

Well said! Puzzledtraveller Mar 2012 #45

So you are telling me that members of the gun lobby don't routinely advocate.... Walk away Mar 2012 #66

Try taking people for who they are, one at a time. Remmah2 Mar 2012 #74

I have never been a NRA member either. Puzzledtraveller Mar 2012 #89

I love how some people see every gun owner as a mass murdered. Remmah2 Mar 2012 #96

Good for you. That was clearly not my point but feel free to testify! nt Walk away Mar 2012 #124

But that is exactly how gun owners get treated. Remmah2 Mar 2012 #139

How yow you react is up to you. I am interested in why so many Gun Lobby folk... Walk away Mar 2012 #105

I've sent many an e-mail to my Democratic Senators and Reps expressing my opinions. Remmah2 Mar 2012 #109

You haven't established your claim. AtheistCrusader Mar 2012 #135

Put up or shut up. Straw Man Mar 2012 #230

Do it. AtheistCrusader Mar 2012 #120

The thought of sifting through the haranging and often... Walk away Mar 2012 #132

If we do, individuals like myself will step up with private contributions to PP. AtheistCrusader Mar 2012 #133

Well put. Union Scribe Mar 2012 #239

Well that was a bunch of fallacious horse-apples. n/t PavePusher Mar 2012 #51

Did you alert those posts? AtheistCrusader Mar 2012 #119

The pro-gun crowd does indeed applaud every time some right winger proposes relaxing gun laws. Hoyt Mar 2012 #184

It seems the spin started with the gun prohibitionist prom. Remmah2 Mar 2012 #13

Yup cause it was the local PD's money and influence that allowed a for a law that means you can gun DFab420 Mar 2012 #16

Second verse, same as the first. Remmah2 Mar 2012 #26

Seems your the one dancing around this issue. Do you disagree that the NRA has used its money and DFab420 Mar 2012 #82

Only if you only read half the law. PavePusher Mar 2012 #53

I have read all of it. DFab420 Mar 2012 #86

Apparently you missed this part.. X_Digger Mar 2012 #92

I don't understand your point? Are you saying Trayvon brought this on himself cause he provoked DFab420 Mar 2012 #97

No, you can't "gun ppl down in the streets if you feel threatened...." under this law.. X_Digger Mar 2012 #101

So even though you think Zimmerman can't avail himself of the law, the FL PD disagree DFab420 Mar 2012 #108

The racist PD, whose chief was replaced for a previous incident of looking the other way? X_Digger Mar 2012 #110

?? ok I'm confused by the point you are trying to make..the stand your ground law it the law that DFab420 Mar 2012 #114

Yes, it's the corrupt police, not the law. X_Digger Mar 2012 #118

The police aren't using the law at all. PavePusher Mar 2012 #145

Yes, you see the problem isnt this fucked up law that enables racist police departments Warren Stupidity Mar 2012 #156

And you think a racist police department wouldn't cover for a racist without this one law?!? X_Digger Mar 2012 #158

If I bang my head harder will it get through to you what we are saying? Warren Stupidity Mar 2012 #159

Feel free to bang whatever you like. X_Digger Mar 2012 #161

Like Zimmerman and those like him are going to read all that. They don't get past Stand Your Ground Hoyt Mar 2012 #185

Lots of concern trolls that just feel the need to reassure themselves. nt Guy Whitey Corngood Mar 2012 #15

Rec. CakeGrrl Mar 2012 #20

This in no way is a defense of Zimmerman. KamaAina Mar 2012 #21

I am a gun nut but Zimmerman is a racist who should be prosecuted for murder bluestateguy Mar 2012 #25

I guess I must be a gun nut, too. murielm99 Mar 2012 #31

Agree. Lost-in-FL Mar 2012 #33

Murderers never consider the law! Puzzledtraveller Mar 2012 #50

He wanted this to happen, no doubts about it. nt Lost-in-FL Mar 2012 #54

I don't want police to get in the habit of arresting people without concrete evidence of a crime slackmaster Mar 2012 #28

A child carrying nothing but tea and skittles was killed by obxhead Mar 2012 #43

"while an investigation is underway"... ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #77

The problem may be the law itself. Please read the Sanford City Manager's open letter. slackmaster Mar 2012 #111

I saw the letter yesterday (responded in the original post about it). ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #115

The law does not -verb needed- harassing somone... slackmaster Mar 2012 #121

It does not allow for (edited). I hope you don't mind that I am going to go ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #123

I agree with you that there is evidence to keep the case open, and in fact it IS still open. slackmaster Mar 2012 #127

Again, I am going to go with the (not a CNN caller) legal expert ScreamingMeemie Mar 2012 #128

Ironically Trevor Martin could have used this law had he been carrying a gun... Kalidurga Mar 2012 #29

Perhaps so, but Trayvon Martin was too young to legally buy a handgun or get a permit to carry it slackmaster Mar 2012 #30

Above all everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Life Long Dem Mar 2012 #34

I have no problem with Zimmerman having a fair trial, but to have a trial he needs to be WI_DEM Mar 2012 #36

No, that's not how it works. PavePusher Mar 2012 #55

Lol what??? Usually if there is a shooting and the shooter is on scene he is at least detained for DFab420 Mar 2012 #93

"detained for questioning" =/= "arrested and charged" PavePusher Mar 2012 #146

Actually, according to the PD report (for what it's worth), he was handcuffed and detained. X_Digger Mar 2012 #148

Oh, we have a good idea about what happened next Oilwellian Mar 2012 #90

Who confronted who? Life Long Dem Mar 2012 #107

This message was self-deleted by its author Cali_Democrat Mar 2012 #149

all that shit is on the 911 tapes.. frylock Mar 2012 #98

I think i'd be yelling for help too... Life Long Dem Mar 2012 #113

and based on that comment i'll place you in the zimmerman camp frylock Mar 2012 #130

I see. Life Long Dem Mar 2012 #143

I Expected it... and Glad they Outed Themselves fascisthunter Mar 2012 #35

They could try being honest. safeinOhio Mar 2012 #37

I think you're being unfair. USArmyParatrooper Mar 2012 #38

If it was Trayvon crying for help then he was fearing for his life. Life Long Dem Mar 2012 #44

It's exactly like someone saying "I'm not racist, but" obxhead Mar 2012 #41

Bravo! Zoeisright Mar 2012 #155

"Gun nuts... on DU" is an insult to DUers cherokeeprogressive Mar 2012 #46

We're tough. Remmah2 Mar 2012 #52

I didn't alert for just that reason. n/t cherokeeprogressive Mar 2012 #63

Agreed... SidDithers Mar 2012 #49

Most of those are probably from TS'd Paulbots RZM Mar 2012 #72

Why make the claim about Paulbots then? Puzzledtraveller Mar 2012 #95

There was a rash of Ron Paul trolls not so long ago RZM Mar 2012 #131

More than just the war on drugs. AtheistCrusader Mar 2012 #122

Complete Agreement Moral Compass Mar 2012 #57

This message was self-deleted by its author ellisonz Mar 2012 #60

Zimmerman Old Codger Mar 2012 #62

This avalanche of mistakes is why laws like this one makes no sense. Lost-in-FL Mar 2012 #78

imho why the PD is in full blown CYA mode.. frylock Mar 2012 #103

21 states have passed this same law as Florida. This is insane! earcandle Mar 2012 #75

That is like saying, 'this is in no way defense of the GOP...' Rex Mar 2012 #80

The argument against this law in the first place was..... louis-t Mar 2012 #81

That was always the case, before this law or after. X_Digger Mar 2012 #100

Without the law, the evidence would have allowed the police to louis-t Mar 2012 #236

Not likely.. X_Digger Mar 2012 #237

The law is fine. Zimmerman's actions don't fall under it. moriah Mar 2012 #94

what would have happened if Zimmerman had followed and shot a middle aged white man? jzodda Mar 2012 #102

I would actually say that the "stand your ground" law would work in Trayvon's favor. LoZoccolo Mar 2012 #104

Especially if Zimmerman tried to illegally detain Martin. n/t X_Digger Mar 2012 #116

Exactly. AtheistCrusader Mar 2012 #125

It would if Zimmerman was dead Progressive dog Mar 2012 #141

no. If Martin had shot Zimmerman he would be in jail right now facing a death penalty. Warren Stupidity Mar 2012 #162

The law certainly was Trayvon's advantage. Especially if being killed counts as an advantage. Dr Fate Mar 2012 #219

Sorry pal. The law isn't the problem. AtheistCrusader Mar 2012 #112

Just like I don't mean to bother you, I don't mean to step on your... I don't mean to interupt you.. demgrrrll Mar 2012 #126

Nonsense. Zimmerman is a murderer, and you trying to blame the law gives him an EXCUSE. Daemonaquila Mar 2012 #129

The gun people here are the only ones permitted to openly worship a rightwing organization DisgustipatedinCA Mar 2012 #134

Yes Progressive dog Mar 2012 #142

Thank you. K&R n/t Control-Z Mar 2012 #138

I am so sick of the twisted defences of this law Progressive dog Mar 2012 #140

Exactly, the fuckers who backed this law were Republicans. They love to pass crap that Hoyt Mar 2012 #217

I searched for them but could only find yours. Nye Bevan Mar 2012 #147

I agree 10000000%. Zoeisright Mar 2012 #151

K&R abelenkpe Mar 2012 #154

It's obvious that the anti gun nuts are looking for any reason to attack all gun owners. L0oniX Mar 2012 #157

yes how dare we. Warren Stupidity Mar 2012 #160

What I find amazing is what incredibly thin skin gun lovers (at least here) appear to have. Dragonfli Mar 2012 #163

"incredibly thin skin"? PavePusher Mar 2012 #188

AGREE 100% fightthegoodfightnow Mar 2012 #164

Now that our pretend liberals, aka "pro-gun Democrats" have been given their very own forum on DU3 apocalypsehow Mar 2012 #166

I am a progressive flaming liberal retired nurse Mojorabbit Mar 2012 #179

why do you think that post had anything to do with you? iverglas Mar 2012 #192

Because I am a "pro gun liberal" Mojorabbit Mar 2012 #220

no, presumably you're a pro gun liberal iverglas Mar 2012 #221

Oh, lord. Union Scribe Mar 2012 #240

did you have something to actually say? iverglas Mar 2012 #241

Thanks for the insult Papagoose Mar 2012 #191

and another one iverglas Mar 2012 #193

You're wrong. Straw Man Mar 2012 #229

No, I'm not wrong. Nothing about the NRA agenda is a "progressive value." apocalypsehow Mar 2012 #234

Maybe, just maybe flvegan Mar 2012 #169

This is the result of gun nuts. Nothing else need be said. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2012 #172

It is - precisely right. And they are allowed here to spew their Right wing talking points unabated. apocalypsehow Mar 2012 #177

c'mon over to H&M iverglas Mar 2012 #195

Two more and I'm an transparency page ace! Just like Snoopy and his Sopwith Camel. I'm thinking back apocalypsehow Mar 2012 #225

I agree with you 100% nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2012 #201

You'll have to rip that bill out of our cold dead hands! BootinUp Mar 2012 #175

Killing black kids seems to be popular amongst a small segment of the population. Major Hogwash Mar 2012 #176

Its pretty sickening seeing people make Zimmerman into some poor victim. Lilyeye Mar 2012 #178

People here? Where? n/t PavePusher Mar 2012 #189

Yup, a few of them have been banned. Look in any thread on the guy and you'll find one. Lilyeye Mar 2012 #204

Link please. emilyg Mar 2012 #197

No offense, but I don't have time to go back finding posts from trolls. Lilyeye Mar 2012 #206

If you are going to make this claim.... PavePusher Mar 2012 #211

You can ignore my post. I made an opinion and I don't need to explain myself further. Lilyeye Mar 2012 #212

No, you made an accusation and have not supported it when challenged. PavePusher Mar 2012 #222

Good luck with that? lol Lilyeye Mar 2012 #223

Going by the edit time-stamp.... PavePusher Mar 2012 #224

I posted the link earlier today. Here is another one Lilyeye Mar 2012 #226

Yeah, that was entirely inappropriate in the given circumstances.... PavePusher Mar 2012 #227

This message was self-deleted by its author Lilyeye Mar 2012 #213

Makes you wonder what they'd post if they started with Ken Burch Mar 2012 #181

Let's see some links, please. Another poster tried to say what yu say... Honeycombe8 Mar 2012 #186

Rush was just kidding! freshwest Mar 2012 #194

k&r - As I posted on another thread... polichick Mar 2012 #198

It's a great law and has nothing to do with Zimmerman not being charged. Pacafishmate Mar 2012 #199

or they will say "I am a progrssive" before they make a post lol. Lilyeye Mar 2012 #207

Hi. I'm a progressive ... Straw Man Mar 2012 #231

No I am not, thanks for reminding me lol. Lilyeye Mar 2012 #233