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DFW

(60,222 posts)
78. What a minorty part of the country desires may not be best for the country, that's why
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:19 AM
Mar 2014

Yes, Czechslovakia split up. That was an easy one. The Czechs had a tourist-money gold mine in Prague, a west only too eager to throw money at a country led by Vlaclav Havel, and a brand new democratically elected government. The Slovaks had a Soviet-style holdover leadership and nothing to offer the Czechs except a drain on their economy. The Slovaks got the raw end of that deal by separating, and the Czechs were only too happy to wave goodbye.

The Ukraine, like other ethnically diverse countries in Europe (Spain, Finland, Switzerland, Romania, etc.) has plenty of reasons to split up, but more to stay together, especially if you're NOT an ethnic Russian with an axe to grind. Being under Putin's yoke is not always fun and games, and if you're a political dissident, it can be downright fatal. Besides, the Ukies didn't enslave the Russians, put them to forced labor, or even force them to speak Ukranian under pain of punishment.

Quite aside from the question of sending Russian occupation troops in as a fore-runner of a territorial grab, it is (or should be) up to the Ukraine as a whole to let part of the country go or not (I recall a guy named Lincoln being faced with a similar dilemma), not Vladimir Putin, and not even the Russians living in the Crimea. Sweden isn't sending troops into Finland to protect land where the Swedish-speaking minority lives. France and Holland aren't doing it with Belgium. Italy isn't doing it in Ticino. Hungary isn't doing it in Transylvania. The last time there was a messy split-up, it was very bloody, sent a million refugees my way, many of whom are still here, and led to the formation of a few wobbly and uselessly independent states (Crna Gora, Croatia, Republic-formerly-known-as Macedonia, etc. etc). Ethnic Serbs still live in Croatia. Ethnic Croats still live in Bosnia. Ethnic Albanians still live in Macedonia. So, it was all for what? Yugoslavia was a artificial creation of World War I, granted, but it became a cool place to be before the nut cases decided that killing was more fun than sex. In the seventies, I used to hang out in Marshal Tito Square in Zagreb with long haired 20-somethings who used to be perfectly at ease with kids from other parts of Yugoslavia. The biggest conflict was when someone made a comment, and a local would say, "yeah, but you're a Serb!" and everyone would have a laugh. It was one mellow scene, and it needed some heavy stirring up to get a cool group of people like that to abandon their guitars and exchange them for sniper rifles. Putin is an expert at that kind of stirring up. It's what he was trained to do. I've been to the villa where he lived while he was a KGB hotshot living in East Germany while the rest of the East Germans were living in pre-WWII apartments. Not like Yanukovich's digs in Kiev, but some pretty fine real estate just the same. THAT'S the kind of Russian he's really protecting. Putin cares about the rest of the Russians cheering him in Ukranian streets about as much as Rick Perry and Tom Corbett care about their adoring penniless rednecks who can't wait to find out how great it is to get cancer from fracking.

At the end of the day, there will be some saber rattling and even some minor skirmishing if enough people on the ground miscalculate, but we're not getting involved, NATO isn't getting involved, and both Putin and Obama know it. There will be some posturing. Then Putin will get away with as much he can, and we can all wring our hands, calm down after a while, and shout "NEXT!"

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Ukraine would lose Black Sea access, I think TheMightyFavog Mar 2014 #1
Looks like they'd get that yellow strip. nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #4
Pretty cavalier about another nation's territorial integrity Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #2
Ok. Why not, if it'll increase the peace? MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #3
Sudan dsc Mar 2014 #5
Ireland is worse off as an independent country than it was as part of the UK? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #9
I meant Northern Ireland dsc Mar 2014 #10
For a couple of reasons Chathamization Mar 2014 #20
It won't. Igel Mar 2014 #99
increase peace? Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #117
Scotland looks as if it might be on the way to splitting with the UK Fumesucker Mar 2014 #6
PM me when that happens. Hint: Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #11
Only if the UK allows it. joshcryer Mar 2014 #55
slippery slope, will lead to men marrying their dogs WhaTHellsgoingonhere Mar 2014 #15
Why did Czechoslovakia choose to split in two, and why is it our business what they do? Ireland is sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #46
Caring about outcome of an invasion of another country doesn't necessarily mean davidpdx Mar 2014 #69
Unless of course 'we' are doing the invading of other countries malaise Mar 2014 #87
It was entirely internal, along fairly well-established internal borders. Igel Mar 2014 #101
What does your last paragraph have to do with this conversation? Are you saying that those of us sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #109
"Why shouldn't Germany have annexed the Sudetenland? After all, it had a German-speaking majority!" Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #7
I don't believe that I called for annexation. MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #13
You seem to be confused. Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #16
So you want us to go to war with Russia? MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #18
Not really, no. Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #28
So you think Russia won't dominate a united Ukraine MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #33
Yes and yes Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #37
Didn't most Ukrainians vote for Russian-leaning politicians? MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #38
Right, because having 70 people massacred in the streets by the pro-Russian govt BainsBane Mar 2014 #48
So they didn't vote for his government? nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #49
I want to make something very clear BainsBane Mar 2014 #51
You seem to want to change the conversation MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #54
Hell, Manny, you could post a fucking recipe for meatloaf and ... 11 Bravo Mar 2014 #105
I'm going to try that. MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #110
I look forward to continuing this discussion MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #58
You'll have to talk to Chris about that BainsBane Mar 2014 #123
My understanding is that the deposed president thucythucy Mar 2014 #90
Looks like he campaigned on closer ties to EU *and* Russia MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #91
Looks like he was a pretty run of the mill politician, thucythucy Mar 2014 #97
Good post. nt laundry_queen Mar 2014 #108
In America, we vote in Conservative assholes. randome Mar 2014 #102
That's exactly right! MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #103
Answer the question treestar Mar 2014 #75
Why shouldn't a country do whatever it wants without our interference? Other countries have chosen sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #53
+1. Nt newfie11 Mar 2014 #68
Laughable davidpdx Mar 2014 #70
No silly, the vote under military occupation. joshcryer Mar 2014 #71
I'm going to conduct an experiment here, I hope you don't mind if I use YOUR comment to do so. sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #116
+1 BainsBane Mar 2014 #120
A brief footnote to that DFW Mar 2014 #73
Perhaps, I have friends in Slovakia who recognize eg, that they have an unemployment issue eg sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #107
There is a difference between being proud of your ethnicity and changing your nationality DFW Mar 2014 #113
But would they go back is the question, I have no idea what the general feeling among sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #118
Western Ukraine likes having a big country, but they seem to resent the fact that ethnic Russians... JVS Mar 2014 #8
Ukraine should not be forced to answer to Russia. Period. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #17
If the democratically elected government chooses to have a trade pact with Russia, that is... JVS Mar 2014 #21
That is almost certainly Putin's plan. joshcryer Mar 2014 #56
If they want that, they should be allowed to arrange it--without a foreign army TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #12
Because it won't actually split in two. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #14
So what's your better solution? nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #19
Ukraine stays united. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #22
Ukraine, Love It Or Leave It Fumesucker Mar 2014 #23
It's a seperate country from Russia for a reason. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #25
Someone should tell the Hawaiians Fumesucker Mar 2014 #34
Just because we've done it, doesn't make it any less right. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #86
What it ~does~ mean is that we look like total hypocrites when criticizing them Fumesucker Mar 2014 #88
This message was self-deleted by its author Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #89
What about those of use that were criticizing the US Government for those actions? Chathamization Mar 2014 #106
Crimea has never really been seperate from Russia but on paper. bt Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #76
It once belonged mainly to the Ethnic Tartars. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #83
Yes. Point being, strategically, the Crimea is essential to Russia. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #85
You say that in my scenario, Russians annex territory and some ethnic groups are screwed MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #24
Ethnic groups can stay or ethnic groups can go. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #26
Why would Russians stay away from a united Ukraine MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #27
I don't know. We're talking in hypotheticals here. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #31
so if a bunch of Americans move to southern Canada backwoodsbob Mar 2014 #72
According to the Belavezha accords, the ethnic Russians have a right to stay put AND to have... JVS Mar 2014 #43
Good point. joshcryer Mar 2014 #47
Hopefully they'll start communicating with the Easterners. JVS Mar 2014 #63
It needs to not come with debt to equity swap extortion though. joshcryer Mar 2014 #65
I think Belarus' client status has a lot more to do with Lukashenko's refusal to do any political... JVS Mar 2014 #67
And in those accords Ukrainians have a right to be free of Russian incursion on their soil..... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #84
If they vote to do it...cool, if not MYOB alittlelark Mar 2014 #29
It's not advice. MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #30
It is interesting how so many here seem to forget this is a discussion board penultimate Mar 2014 #39
Welcome to my world. MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #40
Manny... TeeYiYi Mar 2014 #122
It's only a small group of people but they sure are vocal. Autumn Mar 2014 #114
We have enough problems. jsr Mar 2014 #32
I spent two weeks in Ukraine a couple years ago bif Mar 2014 #35
Only 17% of Ukrainian citizens are ethnic Russians. JVS Mar 2014 #36
Carnival in Crimea polly7 Mar 2014 #82
That should be something that decided internally without outside influences... penultimate Mar 2014 #41
Agreed. MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #42
I don't think we have any option here, to be honest. penultimate Mar 2014 #50
I'm curious TBF Mar 2014 #94
With respect to Ukraine? penultimate Mar 2014 #95
No TBF Mar 2014 #98
Is there any evidence of money being used to directly fund fascists? penultimate Mar 2014 #104
Because this is the map of ethnic Ukranians: joshcryer Mar 2014 #44
Then why did most of the country vote for MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #45
Viktor Yanukovich was for EU integration before he was against it. joshcryer Mar 2014 #52
Pro-Moscow Yanukovych 'to win Ukraine election' MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #57
"European Union membership remains Ukraine's strategic goal" - Yanukovych joshcryer Mar 2014 #59
Link? MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #61
See edit. joshcryer Mar 2014 #62
also apropos of nothing, and because I drank Smuttynose IPA last night, Vattel Mar 2014 #79
Smuttynose IPA is in our regular rotation MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #111
Seems like he was playing two sides against each other MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #64
Now you know how politicians work. joshcryer Mar 2014 #66
I never understood that. MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #92
"Ukraine's integration with the EU remains our strategic aim." - Yanukovych joshcryer Mar 2014 #60
This is the case, no doubt. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #77
The leaders of the "Orange Revolution" said some awful things that were not in our press newthinking Mar 2014 #115
Very interesting, thanks. nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #121
No questions! The Powers That Be don't like anyone asking any questions! reformist2 Mar 2014 #74
What a minorty part of the country desires may not be best for the country, that's why DFW Mar 2014 #78
The parties that took power represent less than 30% of the electorate newthinking Mar 2014 #119
Thorny situation there. Interesting discussion of it all here. pinto Mar 2014 #80
The Czechs and Slovaks both agreed. The Czechoslovak parliament approved it. pampango Mar 2014 #81
I wonder if anyone cares TBF Mar 2014 #93
It depends on whose perspective you're thinking of. MineralMan Mar 2014 #96
There are no stupid...oh. Hi, Manny. randome Mar 2014 #100
Great idea. Perhaps a conference could be held in a city such as Munich Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #112
Interesting. Autumn Mar 2014 #124
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