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penultimate

(1,110 posts)

95. With respect to Ukraine?

Sun Mar 2, 2014, 10:42 AM

Mar 2014

I'm not sure, as I haven't seen any concrete evidence of what they have done. I've seen plenty of vague accusations that they orchestrated the protests and revolution on the ground, but I have yet to see any evidence of them fomenting violence. The closest things would be some tapes between the US ambassador to Ukraine and another diplomat discussing the events unfolding and looking for ways to influence them. That right there is not a shocker in itself, as that is what diplomats. I have little doubt that the Russians were in there meddling with things too. Again, that is expected and hardly means they are root cause of the problems, simply trying to steer the situation in a direction they want. It seems to me that Russia is now overstepping its boundaries by deploying its military to capture ports and to surround the military bases in Ukraine. Very few people here would defend the US, UK or France if they did something similar, but many seem to think it's fine and dandy if the Russians do it.

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Stupid question, I know: Why shouldn't Ukraine split in two? [View all] MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 OP

Ukraine would lose Black Sea access, I think TheMightyFavog Mar 2014 #1

Looks like they'd get that yellow strip. nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #4

Pretty cavalier about another nation's territorial integrity Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #2

Ok. Why not, if it'll increase the peace? MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #3

Sudan dsc Mar 2014 #5

Ireland is worse off as an independent country than it was as part of the UK? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #9

I meant Northern Ireland dsc Mar 2014 #10

For a couple of reasons Chathamization Mar 2014 #20

It won't. Igel Mar 2014 #99

increase peace? Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #117

Scotland looks as if it might be on the way to splitting with the UK Fumesucker Mar 2014 #6

PM me when that happens. Hint: Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #11

Only if the UK allows it. joshcryer Mar 2014 #55

slippery slope, will lead to men marrying their dogs WhaTHellsgoingonhere Mar 2014 #15

Why did Czechoslovakia choose to split in two, and why is it our business what they do? Ireland is sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #46

Caring about outcome of an invasion of another country doesn't necessarily mean davidpdx Mar 2014 #69

Unless of course 'we' are doing the invading of other countries malaise Mar 2014 #87

It was entirely internal, along fairly well-established internal borders. Igel Mar 2014 #101

What does your last paragraph have to do with this conversation? Are you saying that those of us sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #109

"Why shouldn't Germany have annexed the Sudetenland? After all, it had a German-speaking majority!" Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #7

I don't believe that I called for annexation. MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #13

You seem to be confused. Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #16

So you want us to go to war with Russia? MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #18

Not really, no. Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #28

So you think Russia won't dominate a united Ukraine MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #33

Yes and yes Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #37

Didn't most Ukrainians vote for Russian-leaning politicians? MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #38

Right, because having 70 people massacred in the streets by the pro-Russian govt BainsBane Mar 2014 #48

So they didn't vote for his government? nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #49

I want to make something very clear BainsBane Mar 2014 #51

You seem to want to change the conversation MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #54

Hell, Manny, you could post a fucking recipe for meatloaf and ... 11 Bravo Mar 2014 #105

I'm going to try that. MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #110

I look forward to continuing this discussion MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #58

You'll have to talk to Chris about that BainsBane Mar 2014 #123

My understanding is that the deposed president thucythucy Mar 2014 #90

Looks like he campaigned on closer ties to EU *and* Russia MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #91

Looks like he was a pretty run of the mill politician, thucythucy Mar 2014 #97

Good post. nt laundry_queen Mar 2014 #108

In America, we vote in Conservative assholes. randome Mar 2014 #102

That's exactly right! MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #103

Answer the question treestar Mar 2014 #75

Why shouldn't a country do whatever it wants without our interference? Other countries have chosen sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #53

+1. Nt newfie11 Mar 2014 #68

Laughable davidpdx Mar 2014 #70

No silly, the vote under military occupation. joshcryer Mar 2014 #71

I'm going to conduct an experiment here, I hope you don't mind if I use YOUR comment to do so. sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #116

+1 BainsBane Mar 2014 #120

A brief footnote to that DFW Mar 2014 #73

Perhaps, I have friends in Slovakia who recognize eg, that they have an unemployment issue eg sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #107

There is a difference between being proud of your ethnicity and changing your nationality DFW Mar 2014 #113

But would they go back is the question, I have no idea what the general feeling among sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #118

Western Ukraine likes having a big country, but they seem to resent the fact that ethnic Russians... JVS Mar 2014 #8

Ukraine should not be forced to answer to Russia. Period. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #17

If the democratically elected government chooses to have a trade pact with Russia, that is... JVS Mar 2014 #21

That is almost certainly Putin's plan. joshcryer Mar 2014 #56

If they want that, they should be allowed to arrange it--without a foreign army TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #12

Because it won't actually split in two. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #14

So what's your better solution? nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #19

Ukraine stays united. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #22

Ukraine, Love It Or Leave It Fumesucker Mar 2014 #23

It's a seperate country from Russia for a reason. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #25

Someone should tell the Hawaiians Fumesucker Mar 2014 #34

Just because we've done it, doesn't make it any less right. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #86

What it ~does~ mean is that we look like total hypocrites when criticizing them Fumesucker Mar 2014 #88

This message was self-deleted by its author Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #89

What about those of use that were criticizing the US Government for those actions? Chathamization Mar 2014 #106

Crimea has never really been seperate from Russia but on paper. bt Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #76

It once belonged mainly to the Ethnic Tartars. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #83

Yes. Point being, strategically, the Crimea is essential to Russia. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #85

You say that in my scenario, Russians annex territory and some ethnic groups are screwed MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #24

Ethnic groups can stay or ethnic groups can go. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #26

Why would Russians stay away from a united Ukraine MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #27

I don't know. We're talking in hypotheticals here. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #31

so if a bunch of Americans move to southern Canada backwoodsbob Mar 2014 #72

According to the Belavezha accords, the ethnic Russians have a right to stay put AND to have... JVS Mar 2014 #43

Good point. joshcryer Mar 2014 #47

Hopefully they'll start communicating with the Easterners. JVS Mar 2014 #63

It needs to not come with debt to equity swap extortion though. joshcryer Mar 2014 #65

I think Belarus' client status has a lot more to do with Lukashenko's refusal to do any political... JVS Mar 2014 #67

And in those accords Ukrainians have a right to be free of Russian incursion on their soil..... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #84

If they vote to do it...cool, if not MYOB alittlelark Mar 2014 #29

It's not advice. MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #30

It is interesting how so many here seem to forget this is a discussion board penultimate Mar 2014 #39

Welcome to my world. MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #40

Manny... TeeYiYi Mar 2014 #122

It's only a small group of people but they sure are vocal. Autumn Mar 2014 #114

We have enough problems. jsr Mar 2014 #32

I spent two weeks in Ukraine a couple years ago bif Mar 2014 #35

Only 17% of Ukrainian citizens are ethnic Russians. JVS Mar 2014 #36

Carnival in Crimea polly7 Mar 2014 #82

That should be something that decided internally without outside influences... penultimate Mar 2014 #41

Agreed. MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #42

I don't think we have any option here, to be honest. penultimate Mar 2014 #50

I'm curious TBF Mar 2014 #94

With respect to Ukraine? penultimate Mar 2014 #95

No TBF Mar 2014 #98

Is there any evidence of money being used to directly fund fascists? penultimate Mar 2014 #104

Because this is the map of ethnic Ukranians: joshcryer Mar 2014 #44

Then why did most of the country vote for MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #45

Viktor Yanukovich was for EU integration before he was against it. joshcryer Mar 2014 #52

Pro-Moscow Yanukovych 'to win Ukraine election' MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #57

"European Union membership remains Ukraine's strategic goal" - Yanukovych joshcryer Mar 2014 #59

Link? MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #61

See edit. joshcryer Mar 2014 #62

also apropos of nothing, and because I drank Smuttynose IPA last night, Vattel Mar 2014 #79

Smuttynose IPA is in our regular rotation MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #111

Seems like he was playing two sides against each other MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #64

Now you know how politicians work. joshcryer Mar 2014 #66

I never understood that. MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #92

"Ukraine's integration with the EU remains our strategic aim." - Yanukovych joshcryer Mar 2014 #60

This is the case, no doubt. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #77

The leaders of the "Orange Revolution" said some awful things that were not in our press newthinking Mar 2014 #115

Very interesting, thanks. nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #121

No questions! The Powers That Be don't like anyone asking any questions! reformist2 Mar 2014 #74

What a minorty part of the country desires may not be best for the country, that's why DFW Mar 2014 #78

The parties that took power represent less than 30% of the electorate newthinking Mar 2014 #119

Thorny situation there. Interesting discussion of it all here. pinto Mar 2014 #80

The Czechs and Slovaks both agreed. The Czechoslovak parliament approved it. pampango Mar 2014 #81

I wonder if anyone cares TBF Mar 2014 #93

It depends on whose perspective you're thinking of. MineralMan Mar 2014 #96

There are no stupid...oh. Hi, Manny. randome Mar 2014 #100

Great idea. Perhaps a conference could be held in a city such as Munich Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #112

Interesting. Autumn Mar 2014 #124