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cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 11:31 PM Mar 2014

We can not fucking do any fucking thing militarily versus Russia vis-a-vis Ukraine. [View all]

Last edited Tue Mar 4, 2014, 01:11 AM - Edit history (3)

The world is not a fucking comic book or inspirational film about bullying, or about high school football teams that beat the odds.

Absent the use of nuclear weapons to obliterate Russia's ability to project military force (and the consequent destruction of many American military assets along with most large American cities) there is not a god damned fucking thing we can do to make Russia leave Crimea via military force.

Everyone talking about Munich and resolve and diplomatic memoranda and our national "face"... grow up. Really. Grow the fuck up.

We cannot sensibly militarily confront Russia in the field for any reason short of the very existence of the USA. Actual existential threat.

Because a real conflict with Russia would be like shooting ones self through the head in hopes the bullet goes out the other side of your head and hits the bad guy. The response to existential threat is, itself, an even worse existential threat.

There are things we cannot do. Perpetual motion machine. Trisecting an angle with only compass and straight-edge. Imposing our will through military force in keeping Russia out of some contiguous real estate.

Similarly, there is nothing Russia can do to prevent us from annexing Tijuana that does not end up with Russia being nuked. That's the catch... that does not end up with Russia being nuked.

It sucks, but for folks who missed the cold war, that's the name of the game. Either side can do anything short of what the other side considers worth getting nuked over.

Our nations are self-designed, as regards each other, to be doomsday devices. The trip-wire nature of the thing is intentional, because neither is going to back down versus the other so the losing side would always make the "stand your ground" play and go for the big gun. And that is why even trivial US-Russia military dust-ups are out of consideration... we all know the ending.

Could economic power encourage Russia to stay in its boundaries? Perhaps. Military force from the USA? No. In an extreme instance we maybe could have another proxy war where one side has boots on the ground and the other side supplies weapons to some other side. (e.g. US in Vietnam, USSR in Afghanistan)

The US military is not going to shoot a Russian soldier, asset or location. And visa-versa.

The logic of nuclear arms precludes dealing with nuclear powers with the means to reliably deliver those bombs here (unlike Pakistan and North Korea and such) like we deal hapless non-nuclear states. Russia is not Iraq or Syria or Grenada or Panama.

It is Russia.

Since we and Russia got nukes we just flat don't allow a situation where US and Russian soldier are in armed opposition, let alone either side dropping any bombs on the other's territory or military assets.

97 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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putin lover. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #1
...and Obama hater. L0oniX Mar 2014 #8
You would say that, Comrade Warren. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #57
What does your post mean? brush Mar 2014 #77
It means that everyone not with the war party Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #78
Just wanted to be clear brush Mar 2014 #79
Try this: bvar22 Mar 2014 #80
No shit lostincalifornia Mar 2014 #2
It is not true that the Americans have never fought Russians FarCenter Mar 2014 #3
The OP is about the post-nuclear world, but cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #5
My dad's uncle died in AEF Siberia dannward Mar 2014 #17
There you go again... Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #4
Risk? Some people are in full Red Dawn mode! Scootaloo Mar 2014 #32
One is either for democracy or isn't. There are democratic ways to remove a president. L0oniX Mar 2014 #6
One can be for democracy and against war. JaneyVee Mar 2014 #9
Ukraine's president was democratically elected. L0oniX Mar 2014 #11
Oh ok, I thought you were advocating for US military intervention. JaneyVee Mar 2014 #13
No way ...peace all the way. L0oniX Mar 2014 #14
! JaneyVee Mar 2014 #15
There's a reason why people choose coups over elections. The Ukraine election was coming up in sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #20
I think you got that backwards... Scootaloo Mar 2014 #33
Actually the Boston Tea Party was in protest to the lowering Cheese4TheRat Mar 2014 #38
He was impeached and fled the country. Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #19
Yeah, that's what's weird, he could have stayed. 2banon Mar 2014 #22
Because he knew he'd be put on trial for ordering violence against protesters, probably. Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #27
The trial would've been about his theft of billions as a rich oligarch. joshcryer Mar 2014 #51
Half the country and Crimea are calling the 'new' government illegitimate. Huge anti Kiev sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #29
He was removed by a vote of 328 to 0. Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #41
You left out quite a bit that took place before the 'vote'. Thanks, but coups are not democratic sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #43
"Violence with outside influences"? Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #44
An interesting thought, all this violence has given Russia an excuse to sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #70
That simple malaise Mar 2014 #54
So you are against protests. nt Progressive dog Mar 2014 #83
Oh ...your still here. L0oniX Mar 2014 #85
So you are against protests and Progressive dog Mar 2014 #86
Seeing shit that isn't being said? Hmmm... You don't live in Colorado do ya? L0oniX Mar 2014 #88
You called them mobs, Progressive dog Mar 2014 #89
Oh you equate mobs as being protests? Protests are usually organized somewhat. L0oniX Mar 2014 #90
No, You equated the protests in Ukraine with mobs Progressive dog Mar 2014 #92
Some people are always trying to start shit. L0oniX Mar 2014 #93
Yes they are, probsbly too Progressive dog Mar 2014 #95
Thank you! fujiyama Mar 2014 #7
+1,000. As good a rant as the OP. Thanks. n/t freshwest Mar 2014 #18
The European war was not won by dropping nuclear bombs. amandabeech Mar 2014 #26
Dresden received the equivalent amount of explosive force through carpet bombing. Cheese4TheRat Mar 2014 #40
So what, the reason for Hitler's defeat was ultimately his lack of ability to MillennialDem Mar 2014 #60
I was merely pointing out the amount of ordinance dropped that was non nuclear. Cheese4TheRat Mar 2014 #72
No, the European war was won by the Russians starroute Mar 2014 #48
It's not even that much for the US and UK MillennialDem Mar 2014 #61
Well said. Katashi_itto Mar 2014 #10
It's the Dr Strangelove club. They have their own Star Chamber too I guess. L0oniX Mar 2014 #12
Gotta protect those precious bodily fluids! backscatter712 Mar 2014 #81
That is not entirely true. ManiacJoe Mar 2014 #16
Jesus Christ on a crutch. fleabiscuit Mar 2014 #23
No it isn't you are missing the underlying plot that this isn't Iraq TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #31
A new proxy conflict coming to a theater near you. One could easily see that happening. Ed Suspicious Mar 2014 #46
yeah.. how bout we don't test that theory, Joe? dionysus Mar 2014 #34
Are you serious? 'Our logistics would dictate that it be a limited mission'. And Russia would just sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #36
Wow. I've got to second Fleabiscuit. That's pretty ignorant Scootaloo Mar 2014 #39
Well Said, Scootaloo 2banon Mar 2014 #96
Sure glad you aren't involved in national defense. Cheese4TheRat Mar 2014 #42
Dear god, this is fucking scary that Dems are all riled up to kick off some mutually assured Ed Suspicious Mar 2014 #45
I just cannot get over how much that sounds like something Bill Kristol would say. Ed Suspicious Mar 2014 #47
This is truly a maniac thought - if I may say so -- n/t mazzarro Mar 2014 #50
I have to hand it to you folks. These responses are a riot! ManiacJoe Mar 2014 #52
You watch to many movies. Katashi_itto Mar 2014 #53
You need to be in the first wave. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #58
Calling Dr Strangelove ...Dr Strangelove ...wanted at the ICBM launch pad. L0oniX Mar 2014 #67
Um, do you remember what happened last time? Capt. Obvious Mar 2014 #71
Yeah, I remember. That was the time I had to piss in the radiator. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #74
Team America, World's Police, eh? mr blur Mar 2014 #91
Who's yer daddy? MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #21
You afraid of saggy man boobs? Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Mar 2014 #25
I scream in terror when I see them MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #64
I always pretend that's a picture of a mother about to feed her cubs. chrisa Mar 2014 #66
We could lend intelligence. joshcryer Mar 2014 #24
we would have to have some first in order to lend some. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #69
ROFL! Amen to that! 2banon Mar 2014 #97
But we sure as hell can start a Cold War over this and enrich the MIC even more... Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #28
"...that does not end up with Russia being nuked "// that does not end up with Russia AND jtuck004 Mar 2014 #30
War with Russia over the "autonomous region" of Crimea alcibiades_mystery Mar 2014 #35
War is exciting and shit...As long as you can watch it on TV half a world away.... Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #37
Words have meaning. angrychair Mar 2014 #49
It begins... Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #55
Obama and European leaders seem to know this. Besides relying in the military to respond pampango Mar 2014 #56
The EU is dependent on Russian energy supplies. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #59
You're right. And Russia gets most of its export earnings from oil and natural gas. pampango Mar 2014 #62
The markets today seem to have voted for "meh" w.r.t. Crimea. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #68
The "meh" may be that things have not spun out of control; it looks like Putin may just want Crimea, pampango Mar 2014 #76
Except they're in a good position at the moment. jeff47 Mar 2014 #75
To add, this 'conflict' is a predictable Russian response to Western meddling in the region... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #63
Exactly who is saying that we are? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #65
You skipped an important detail. jeff47 Mar 2014 #73
FGS--War is obsolete. Impossible. Archaic. Over. Defunct. IT CAN NO LONGER BE . librechik Mar 2014 #82
The same also applies in the other direction mythology Mar 2014 #84
IMO Mr Dixon Mar 2014 #87
Sadly, we have a warmongering crowd on DU. Rex Mar 2014 #94
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