General Discussion

The Masked Shrike

(14 posts)

100. Yes

Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:29 PM

Mar 2014

Unfortunately, we can not guarantee their territory. I think the idea was to incorporate Ukraine into NATO, which was expressly formed to stop the Soviets (Russians) from taking over all of Europe. However, the Ukraine is too ethnically diverse and split politically to have formed an internal consensus to join NATO or the EU. They are split between clinging to Russia vs. stronger ties with the West. We would be intervening in a civil war. Similar to Vietnam--except with nuclear weapons. A LOT of nuclear weapons. I grew up during the cold war and nuclear war scares the beejeezus out of me. Most of Europe is not going to sacrifice angering their major energy supplier (Russia), so the US would be largely on its own. So, yes, the Ukrainians are on their own. The older I get, the more I view war as almost always making things worse.

I know US and UK diplomats made promises, but I do not believe there was a formal treaty ratified by the Senate. In all likelihood, the Ukraine will be broken up along ethnic lines, similar to a lot of eastern Europe, and then a smaller, more cohesive Ukraine could be bound more tightly to the west.

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do people today understand what war with Russia would mean? [View all] Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 OP

WWlll is what it would become. brush Mar 2014 #1

that would be all too likely Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #4

NOT ONLY THAT... yuiyoshida Mar 2014 #57

behind every blade of grass 30cal Mar 2014 #63

You are right as far as you went. proudretiredvet Mar 2014 #64

NO one..and I MEAN no one... yuiyoshida Mar 2014 #65

There are warmongers who want to send young men to war. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2014 #68

it did happen as a direct result of the proudretiredvet Mar 2014 #85

so you are of the opinon when the yuiyoshida Mar 2014 #88

Your points are always circular arguments that end up spiraling down the drain. proudretiredvet Mar 2014 #93

In WWII, Nazi subs went up the Mississippi River and around Florida. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2014 #67

i read an article about the defenses used in protecting San Francisco Bay.... A HERETIC I AM Mar 2014 #69

During the first several months of 1942 the most dangerous waterway in the world Maedhros Mar 2014 #71

How about the islands off of Alaska? proudretiredvet Mar 2014 #87

Actually it was two islands, Attu and Kiska. Angleae Mar 2014 #89

Thanks for the information proudretiredvet Mar 2014 #90

U-boats shut down the st Lawrence too Boom Sound 416 Mar 2014 #91

They tested an ICBM missile that could reach the US today. WhiteTara Mar 2014 #101

Go to Google Search aristocles Mar 2014 #2

... Fumesucker Mar 2014 #3

The displacement of the clouds is hauntingly beautiful JJChambers Mar 2014 #14

yep, pretty much that... Locrian Mar 2014 #34

If that's in real time MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #62

While I agree, I'm left wondering... Adrahil Mar 2014 #5

there is no reason to believe he is going to invade Poland. Risking thermonuclear war Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #6

Only crazy assholes would contemplate it as a viable option. jsr Mar 2014 #9

Dominionists that believe America is SUPPOSED to be the catalyst OF the "End of Days" VanillaRhapsody Mar 2014 #52

Sadly that is true, by these damn fools. If they want to die so badly, let them do RKP5637 Mar 2014 #54

thats the problem....they don't think "we die".... VanillaRhapsody Mar 2014 #58

^ this ^ defacto7 Mar 2014 #56

At some point, religionists are going to have to be muzzled. They are already ladjf Mar 2014 #80

We don't have any military options in Ukraine... Adrahil Mar 2014 #17

He wouldn't - that would be beyond stupid. chrisa Mar 2014 #39

Poland is, obviously, an exaggeration.... at least for now, but... Adrahil Mar 2014 #42

I think you are mischaracterizing the anti-war argument. Maedhros Mar 2014 #104

asking about Poland or asking what's he's doing in Ukraine? 2banon Mar 2014 #113

Putin is not that stupid. bemildred Mar 2014 #10

I suspect you're right... Adrahil Mar 2014 #19

Yep. bemildred Mar 2014 #21

They could make it hurt economically... Adrahil Mar 2014 #22

Anything they do will hurt them worse, Pooty-Poot has better leverage. bemildred Mar 2014 #23

So far the US has not been rash, but... Adrahil Mar 2014 #25

I have some faith in Obama, he seems "real world", bemildred Mar 2014 #28

Unfortunately defacto7 Mar 2014 #60

Normally I would agree. However this is Putin. PFunk Mar 2014 #29

Anybody can have a brain fart. So yeah, he is not immune. bemildred Mar 2014 #31

Look at what Russia had to do when we invaded both Afghanistan and Iraq madokie Mar 2014 #12

Really? Scootaloo Mar 2014 #59

I realize this requires a bit of subtle thinking.... Adrahil Mar 2014 #74

You're assuming the options are a full-scale war or letting Putin do whatever he wants Hippo_Tron Mar 2014 #70

If you read my other posts, I'm not. Adrahil Mar 2014 #72

Exerting hard power willy nilly is no way to become a "Superpower" Hippo_Tron Mar 2014 #78

I somewhat agree, Adrahil Mar 2014 #79

I didn't realize they weren't a superpower now. go west young man Mar 2014 #112

One result may be from the fact that back in the cold war we produced most of what we needed jwirr Mar 2014 #7

There's not going to be any war with Russia. MineralMan Mar 2014 #8

I agree. It just makes my jaw drop that there are a few kooks here on DU trying to push for it Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #11

Just ignore them. They have no idea what they're talking about. MineralMan Mar 2014 #13

That's why I referenced Tsar Bomba. aristocles Mar 2014 #15

That, and our economic interests. MineralMan Mar 2014 #20

I think some who should know better have forgotten.... paleotn Mar 2014 #16

+1,000,000 aristocles Mar 2014 #18

+1. We need to finish what we started in the 1970s. bemildred Mar 2014 #26

This old cold warrior has just one question sarge43 Mar 2014 #35

reminds me of this gem from 2007; dionysus Mar 2014 #82

And here we are living in the 100th year anniversary of the First World War... Javaman Mar 2014 #24

And 75 years since another madman exboyfil Mar 2014 #76

See "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, Third Edition" by Samuel Glasstone, and Philip J. Dolan FarCenter Mar 2014 #27

Should have listened to Glenn Beck packman Mar 2014 #30

You're either being sarcastic or missing the... aristocles Mar 2014 #33

Sarcasm , yes, missing the point- packman Mar 2014 #44

YEP ^^^^ people do NOT take these nutters serious enough....they have invaded VanillaRhapsody Mar 2014 #55

some of us understand all too well, and the thought that there are people advocaitng for this niyad Mar 2014 #32

Not if we send Skittles. He likes kicking ass. randome Mar 2014 #36

SCHEDULING RANDOME FOR ASS KICKING Skittles Mar 2014 #51

There won't be a war with Russia. We're not even close. This is theater. chrisa Mar 2014 #37

Anyone seriously pushing for war must be Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #38

maybe it's all the X-boxes that people got at Christmas Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #41

Most people in the U.S. are not at all concerned .. if they even know the gravity of this. YOHABLO Mar 2014 #40

A lot more money to the MIC and a lot of dead people. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #43

Invade whom? Or what? Igel Mar 2014 #45

placing U.S. troops in a manner that looks like a possible military strike on Russia would probably Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #46

How about giving Ukraine back the nukes they gave up in return for US/UK guarantee kelly1mm Mar 2014 #53

Uh, no. The Masked Shrike Mar 2014 #83

Question: Did we (US and UK) say that if Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons we would garantee kelly1mm Mar 2014 #84

it would be the sane and rational position. - Only a dangerous kook would want to up the nuclear Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #92

You asked "And just when did the U.S./U.K.guarantee military intervention with potential kelly1mm Mar 2014 #106

it is beyond the imagination of any sane or rational person that anyone would push for war Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #108

So, basically, Ukraine was a bunch of dupes to trust the US/UK and give up its nukes? kelly1mm Mar 2014 #109

if you are actually serious and it really is necessary to explain why we can't go to war with Russia Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #110

Thanks for the advice. So, was the Ukraine a bunch of dupes to trust the US/UK to live kelly1mm Mar 2014 #111

I'm guessing your are a youngster and kids your age simply have no idea what war with Russia would Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #114

I disagree and think they were dupes for trusting us. And with the kelly1mm Mar 2014 #115

are the Ukrainians claiming that America and Britain duped them by not launching war against Russia? Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #116

Yes The Masked Shrike Mar 2014 #100

I believe you may be correct in the eventual outcome in Ukraine. I do think that our reneging on kelly1mm Mar 2014 #107

We are no where near this and while it bears discussion remember that is just that right now... jimlup Mar 2014 #47

I highly doubt it would result in nuclear war mythology Mar 2014 #48

during the entire history of the cold war everyone knew that direct hot war was not an option Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #50

No, nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #49

I agree with you on N. Korea. n/t defacto7 Mar 2014 #61

I agree with what you say from the position we are in right now. proudretiredvet Mar 2014 #95

Why quietly you will see the cuts reversed nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #96

Protecting our country and standing by the agreements we have made with other nations proudretiredvet Mar 2014 #98

It was not a purge nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #99

There's a tendency... defacto7 Mar 2014 #66

We don't fight countries who have nukes. That's B Calm Mar 2014 #73

Thanatos is a strong force in too many American minds. stillwaiting Mar 2014 #75

Again, let me repeat. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #77

well, you are right about it only being a few - but even among those clearly opposing war with Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #81

That is because the last total war was over sixty years ago nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #86

Here is what the world would look like Capt. Obvious Mar 2014 #94

Ok but it does raise the question treestar Mar 2014 #97

Surely get the red out Mar 2014 #102

even some opponents of any military action seem to think it would be like something halfway Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #103

The right and Putin want the same thing, a Cold War. Peregrine Mar 2014 #105