General Discussion

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)

212. Thanks for the chronology and background info Catherina.

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 07:40 PM

Mar 2014

The point at which the late November 2013 talks between Yanukoyvch and the EU , to discuss the trade agreement , collapsed was when the EU offered c. $1 billion despite the fact they were already aware Ukraine needed at least eight billion to get them through to summer 2014.

Special Report - Why Ukraine spurned the EU and embraced Russia

Yanukovich estimated that he needed $160 billion over three years to make up for the trade Ukraine stood to lose with Russia, and to help cushion the pain from reforms the EU was demanding. The EU refused to give such a sum, which it said was exaggerated and unjustified.

The EU offered 610 million euros ($839 million) immediately. EU officials said increased trade, combined with various aid and financing programmes, might go some way to providing Kiev with the investment it needed.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/12/19/uk-ukraine-russia-deal-idUKBRE9BI0E320131219

Increased trade ? Yes - exports to Ukraine but the EU gave no commitments as to how much they would import from Ukraine.

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A Chronology of the Ukrainian Coup [View all] Catherina Mar 2014 OP

Thank you for the Russian government's perspective on this. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #1

Corruption? Can you detail for us WHO has been involved in the corruption of most of the EU sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #72

Huge K&R. Thank you Catherina. nt. polly7 Mar 2014 #2

You're welcome Polly. Had to post something factual to counter the MSM's fairytales. Catherina Mar 2014 #6

A great many DUers don't depend on the MSM to inform their perspective cheapdate Mar 2014 #87

+1000. nt. polly7 Mar 2014 #243

"Given the Russian Parliament�s approval of Putin�s request for military troops to be moved... ProSense Mar 2014 #3

There are two sides to every story. LisaL Mar 2014 #4

Does this ProSense Mar 2014 #8

Cookies AND cakes??? MNBrewer Mar 2014 #5

hahha JI7 Mar 2014 #7

You should add a caveat that you're no fan of Yanukowitsch and don't love Putin. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #9

writing 20 paragraphs of pro-Kremlin and pro-Yankusovych propaganda geek tragedy Mar 2014 #10

What would you prefer? Pure, 100% U.S. propaganda? We already have that. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #13

Oh, how about some reality-based discussion instead of this tribal geek tragedy Mar 2014 #18

If you're neither, then go ahead. Introduce your view. Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #19

Considering that every member state of the EU, Japan, and Canada agree with the US geek tragedy Mar 2014 #22

1) It's their country, not ours, 2) plotting regime change is getting old and tiring Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #26

1) Ukraine is not Russia's country; 2) there is nothing to substantiate geek tragedy Mar 2014 #33

But causing REGIME CHANGE in countries around to manipulate them or others, is SICK Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #36

again, the extraordinary claim that the US caused a mass uprising in Ukraine geek tragedy Mar 2014 #39

Oh BS. I'm Latin. Latin America has been the target of U.S. regime changes for, oh forever Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #41

that is not evidence. that is just ranting nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #42

Let's drop this, ok? You're a lover of regime-change, so this convo is over. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #44

false. I favor the right of people to rise up against oppression. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #45

No. You favor manufactured dissent to overthrow democratically elected govts. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #46

You don't get to tell me what I believe. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #55

You can "believe" whatever you want - TBF Mar 2014 #62

That cop got fired, his commander suspended, the geek tragedy Mar 2014 #67

Oh, well that makes it ok then. TBF Mar 2014 #69

No, obviously not. nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #84

You're denying that the U.S. has its claws all over this regime change. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #119

Wrong. You favor U.S. involvement everywhere. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #118

This message was self-deleted by its author polly7 Mar 2014 #106

Yup, same sh*t, different day. Thank you for posting that wonderful article! nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #107

You're very welcome. nt. polly7 Mar 2014 #109

polly7, thanks for pointing out this article Agony Mar 2014 #226

Oh yeah, and the U.S. is not responsible for regime changes and coups in endless countries Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #112

Two points and then this discussion is over. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #121

"the fact that in some cases the US has sponsored and plotted coups..." Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #124

+1 840high Mar 2014 #81

it's your position that Russia didn't interfere? Adrahil Mar 2014 #48

It's my position that it's pure U.S. propaganda that the insurrection was wanted by Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #57

I didn't find a single source that said the "whole country." Adrahil Mar 2014 #60

What I deny is that the U.S. was not involved in hiring and promoting this thing Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #116

That fact that you even mention EU as if they have any credibility, well that says it all. 2banon Mar 2014 #89

? nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #92

I think I asked you this before, but in case I didn't. Who are the 'putinistas'? The reason I'm sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #167

Anyone remotely critical of an Obama Administration Aerows Mar 2014 #193

We used to have pure 100% USA propaganda as long as I remember, Cleita Mar 2014 #102

You're right. I stand corrected! :) nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #105

Feel free to add any substantial information or to refute any assertion that I made. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #15

Well, you advocated she state she's not a fan or loyalist or supporter geek tragedy Mar 2014 #20

Bulverisms are the weakest of all ad-hominem arguments. nt Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #27

Very true what you wrote. Germany needs the cheap labor badly Catherina Mar 2014 #17

As I said in another thread... Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #23

The Orange Revolution we tried failed badly Catherina Mar 2014 #40

Bullshit. You don't feel sorry for the people of Ukraine. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #122

Interesting.. 2banon Mar 2014 #88

I agree regarding the other countries involved, the EU NATO countries, but it seems from the sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #172

Thank you. You're right. The entire nation was not out on the streets... Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #11

The US can't even explain what all those neocons are doing in its state department Catherina Mar 2014 #24

Bush jr had them in there.. didn't realize all these players were still in the game 2banon Mar 2014 #94

Clinton (Hillary) brought Nuland in as spokesperson and then Obama brought her in as Asst Sec State Catherina Mar 2014 #146

This is a most odious revelation, but explains a great deal. 2banon Mar 2014 #153

Odious and depressing. The excuse these are Bush hangovers holds no water Catherina Mar 2014 #157

Re: Bush Hangovers.. 2banon Mar 2014 #174

Bush Sr under Reagan... and it's like he, and his cronies, never left Catherina Mar 2014 #186

top to bottom "house cleaning" and a complete paradigm shift 2banon Mar 2014 #199

Yes of course- "and a complete paradigm shift" Catherina Mar 2014 #210

Thanks... 2banon Mar 2014 #224

I hadn't so thanks for pointing it out. Rec'd to the max! Tom's analysis is spot on Catherina Mar 2014 #232

It's called American corruption. At the very best of circumstances... Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #114

+1 for your insightful comment n/t Catherina Mar 2014 #156

it's weird you take the Russian version in large scoops and reflexively say US is bullshit Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #74

Here's what I no longer do... Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #113

A certain group? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #115

Yup, like Venezuela. As I said, "same sh*t, different day" - just more of U.S. activity Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #117

You are a total and complete fool if you believe.... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #120

Oh wow. The U.S. is a blameless, innocent nation... Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #126

I never said that. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #136

According to you. The same is said after every U.S.-financed coup, until the docs come out nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #148

Is it not true there were thousands of Ukrainian protesters on the street? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #151

Here you go - enjoy... Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #155

Wow. I hadn't read that. Thank you, Sarah. nt. polly7 Mar 2014 #162

You're welcome! nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #166

Paul Craig Roberts. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #176

You are having the same reaction of supporters before the documentation is pouring out by the Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #177

You've gone totally delusional. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #178

Not at all. You think that a double standard is perfectly fine when it comes to the U.S. Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #179

What the hell does a double standard for the US have to do with anything???? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #181

As do I, and that's now what you're supporting. You're supporting the U.S. MSM view. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #182

No. I'm supporting my family members view, who've told me firsthand what's going on. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #184

Fine, you'll ignore history and ignore any other facts, so let's agree to disagree. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #185

But you can't just say, "Well we did it in Chile and Iran, so we did it in Ukraine." Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #188

Ok, but I can say that there are things in this that sound like other regime changes Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #189

So what other US sponsored revolution involved thousands of protesters being paid off? nt Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #190

Oh come on now. Now you'd like me to explain the tactics of manufacturing dissent? Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #194

And name one of those where the US put on its payroll thousands and thousands of protesters.. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #200

Exactly as in all the cases in which the U.S. created regime change, the names are not known until Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #202

So you can't answer my question? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #205

Wait, let me phone the CIA and find out for you. I'll let you know in a moment Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #206

You gave me a Wiki page. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #207

Oh, hold on, let me zoom to the future when all the data is collected, so I can Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #213

You know, you can just as easily say, "No." Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #227

Let's drop your pointless game. I'll continue to expose the truth, and you, the lies. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #228

Except when you can't actually tell me what your "truth" is. nt Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #233

No, I told you what it is. You're the one insisting it is wrong because you support Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #237

No. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #242

Yeah right. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #244

You seem to have fallen for the myth of American Omnipotence more thoroughly than most Neocons... WatermelonRat Mar 2014 #154

If the original leader had been put there via a military coup, I might be tempted to believe you... Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #169

Thanks Catherina malaise Mar 2014 #12

Hi Malaise! Catherina Mar 2014 #25

You linked to Alex Jones ProSense Mar 2014 #14

No, the author linked to a youtube video there Catherina Mar 2014 #34

It's a link to Alex Jones. The video is being used to push the site's twisted garbage. n/t ProSense Mar 2014 #38

then alert it bobduca Mar 2014 #65

That's the problem with TRUTH....... DeSwiss Mar 2014 #70

"Even Alex Jones can say truthful things on occasion." ProSense Mar 2014 #71

Funny...... DeSwiss Mar 2014 #75

Well, ProSense Mar 2014 #77

All beings are ''special'' to me. DeSwiss Mar 2014 #79

Bush is "special" to you. ProSense Mar 2014 #82

You can be their judge. DeSwiss Mar 2014 #83

I'm gonna bet you won't be deterred... Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #16

I can't see them ;) Catherina Mar 2014 #28

Good for you.... Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #32

Yes, let us consider the source. ieoeja Mar 2014 #173

Lol. Too funny. And this from the king, or queen, of self-delete to obliterate your record here Catherina Mar 2014 #183

PWNED! Rex Mar 2014 #192

It's too funny how some here think their indirect slandering won't be noticed Catherina Mar 2014 #195

Oh I noticed 4 or 5 people going directly into 'attack mode' as soon as they saw your name. Rex Mar 2014 #196

You are being taken for a ride. ieoeja Mar 2014 #201

It's always the same ones too lol. Catherina Mar 2014 #208

yowza! dionysus Mar 2014 #225

reccing hard frwrfpos Mar 2014 #21

I noticed that too. Thankfully there are many solid, respected authors out there Catherina Mar 2014 #30

Nice source: Paul Craig Roberts ProSense Mar 2014 #29

that may set the record backwoodsbob Mar 2014 #31

Wasn't it within the past few days... OilemFirchen Mar 2014 #35

Oh yeah, you remember that too, huh?? Number23 Mar 2014 #61

kick frwrfpos Mar 2014 #37

I dont see where the us would do anything different from moscow on this. RedstDem Mar 2014 #43

I don't either Catherina Mar 2014 #47

If the corporations support it, it must be a "democracy" worthy of our "protection". K&R Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #49

They sure loved sponsoring Nuland's talk about Austerity and the IMF Catherina Mar 2014 #54

+1 jsr Mar 2014 #97

I'm glad you answered the call: who are the pro-Putin posters on DU?? nt msanthrope Mar 2014 #50

Welcome back! hrmjustin Mar 2014 #51

Thanks Catherina Mar 2014 #58

Thank you, Catherina. I clicked on this link when I saw your name, Dems to Win Mar 2014 #52

Why thank you! And doubly so Catherina Mar 2014 #56

+1 nt Euphoria Mar 2014 #93

Glad to see someone supporting Russian Imperialism. Ikonoklast Mar 2014 #53

I've spent the last ten minutes looking for who was supporting Imperialism, Russian Imperialism and sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #98

From the article: Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #108

"You either support sovereign nations to have the government they decide to have, or you don't." polly7 Mar 2014 #111

And two wrongs don't make a right. Ikonoklast Mar 2014 #134

Or, it's being ignored for the bullshit it is in this case regarding Crimea. nt. polly7 Mar 2014 #160

Catherina TomClash Mar 2014 #59

Willfully blind. No notice of the Cheney Advisor or PNAC neocons in the State Department either. Catherina Mar 2014 #78

People going apeshit over a single picture of two politicians in the political minority. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #137

do you like doing all of that extra formatting of bolding, adding images, etc? Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #63

Do you object to information being made clearly available? I don't, I don't always click links so sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #76

Hahahaha. It was a question without agenda Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #165

Courage. K&R nt TBF Mar 2014 #64

Nice work Catherina zeemike Mar 2014 #66

Thanks Zee Catherina Mar 2014 #129

Source page not found? blackspade Mar 2014 #68

CD's links have been messing up all afternoon (servr maintenance?) Catherina Mar 2014 #85

Thanks, but that doesn't address the terrible sourcing for the blackspade Mar 2014 #86

They're shopping for a war. DeSwiss Mar 2014 #73

k/r 840high Mar 2014 #80

god, you fall for russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker... dionysus Mar 2014 #90

our media is on par with theirs in the world of propaganda 2banon Mar 2014 #101

Catherina does not fall for Russian propaganda. ieoeja Mar 2014 #175

Seriously? I mean, seriously? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #91

this is how some people view the world JI7 Mar 2014 #103

Which is not to say it has never happened.... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #110

Well, that's the Russian / Putinist narrative. joshcryer Mar 2014 #231

It's the conspiracy theory mindset... Springslips Mar 2014 #152

It's American exceptionalism, rebranded. joshcryer Mar 2014 #230

K&R'd 2banon Mar 2014 #95

Recommend jsr Mar 2014 #96

So happy to see you back. eom Cleita Mar 2014 #99

Thanks Cleita! Catherina Mar 2014 #125

Omg, that conversation between Nuland and Pyatt! Unbelievable! Americans should be outraged sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #100

It's plain as day that Nuland was there for a specific purpose. jsr Mar 2014 #123

I love how none of the detractors still have any comment on Nuland, her PNAC husband on the board Catherina Mar 2014 #130

Agreed- Unbelievable. "They WILL take the IMF deal!" Catherina Mar 2014 #128

The price they will have to pay for that. Already we are hearing about the takeover of people's sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #131

The rump parliament is ramming these things in before the people have a chance to revolt Catherina Mar 2014 #164

+1 woo me with science Mar 2014 #238

Poor beleaguered Russia--they didn't WANT to invade Ukraine, they had no choice. TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #104

Are you interested in knowing the facts about these issues? What do you think, eg, sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #133

"Airc we opposed Bush's policies. When did that change?" ProSense Mar 2014 #135

That old diversion thing doesn't work, haven't you learned that by now? We were behind the ousting sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #139

We didn't "oust" or overthrow anybody. TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #138

Did the people vote for our choice of leader? n/t sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #141

They're a transitional government, chosen by Parliament in the abdication TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #143

That doesn't answer my question. The leader was clearly the choice of the US sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #149

The articles say the Parliament chose the speaker of the Parliament to assume TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #150

They don't have to say anything, because we know now what was going on, all they need to say sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #161

Again, we need to deal in facts. Not conspiracy theories, not "connect the dots", not TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #163

Oh I agree, couldn't agree more in fact. Eg, we were told that the US was not at all involved sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #168

It is almost lol funny that DUers would read a report about the CIA monitoring Rex Mar 2014 #197

But isn't that the way the U.S. does things when it causes regime change? Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #170

BUT WHEN WE DO IT Rex Mar 2014 #198

Oopsie! Yes, I do get it now! ;-) nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #203

Thank you. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #142

I'm following a fascinating series of comments ProSense Mar 2014 #144

Well if you can have a Muslim communist athiest President who attends a radical black church.... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #145

You must spend a lot of time reading garbage from the totally discredited Faux Noose crowd, How do sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #171

Really kind of disturbing. TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #147

k&r Starry Messenger Mar 2014 #127

Fantastic. Much needed. Thanks for posting. n/t Smarmie Doofus Mar 2014 #132

Thanks Catherina Mar 2014 #158

K&R Please, everyone, distribute this beyond DU. woo me with science Mar 2014 #140

Thanks Woo Catherina Mar 2014 #159

Already have. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #204

Thanks for posting. I only have to fit in Verhofstadt BelgianMadCow Mar 2014 #180

Please fit Verhofstadt in! Catherina Mar 2014 #187

He was there on 21st of february BelgianMadCow Mar 2014 #191

"European values"? Like his austerity? LMAO Catherina Mar 2014 #209

Oops, wrong place. nt. polly7 Mar 2014 #211

Thanks for the chronology and background info Catherina. dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #212

I think Ukraine is to be the EU's new cheap labor. Labor there is cheaper than in China Catherina Mar 2014 #214

Not EU membership but the EU did offer Schengen visas. dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #217

Yes, the beauty of deceptive packaging Catherina Mar 2014 #221

Kick for a great thread. nt. polly7 Mar 2014 #215

Thanks Polly! Catherina Mar 2014 #222

Yup, the revolt had nothing to do with people starving and disgusted by a corrupt joeybee12 Mar 2014 #216

Why not post links to dispute the facts ? dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #218

I've been to the Ukraine...I have friends and family there...so unless you have... joeybee12 Mar 2014 #219

Spot price for gas is c. $400 / 1000 cu metres dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #220

Yeah, and they're all Nazis being lead astray by the West... joeybee12 Mar 2014 #223

Wow, now even Bozo the Clown has "friends and family' in the Ukraine! Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #229

I have an Uncle (in law) from the Ukraine .... that makes me Ukrainian too! polly7 Mar 2014 #239

Hey, I think I'm turning Ukrainian! nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #245

Then you might want to start by stop calling it "the Ukraine." Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #241

This message was self-deleted by its author polly7 Mar 2014 #236

Yup. That's what this whole coup was about. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #246

When you see a PNAC'er passing out cookies... Oilwellian Mar 2014 #234

Nailed It! What's that expression? "One Picture is worth a Thousand Words?" KoKo Mar 2014 #240

kick woo me with science Mar 2014 #235