General Discussion

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)

76. I'm curious why people think this is somehow just propaganda

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 01:02 PM

Mar 2014

It's actually basic geopolitics and defense strategy.

If Mexico had overthrown their government and wanted to join Russia's security umbrella, and Russia attempted to put troops/missiles/missile shields near our border, there's no way we'd stand for it. And rightly so. No state would stand for such an unsubtle act of aggression.

Why is Russia any different? Having NATO in Ukraine is like giving someone a knife to point at one's own belly. Any leader would be stupid to let that happen. We've been through this already with the continuing missile shield saga. They aren't objecting to the missile shield just cuz Putin is a bad old man, it's because such a move upsets a delicate balance of power and system of deterrence. Peace between the major powers during the last 70 years has relied on this equilibrium.

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The clash in Crimea is the fruit of western expansion [View all] newthinking Mar 2014 OP

Shhhhhhhhhhhh! malaise Mar 2014 #1

Neo-Nazi's in office is a first in post-war Europe KoKo Mar 2014 #31

Mmm. not quite MNBrewer Mar 2014 #132

Which was the fruit of USSR collapse which was Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #2

Well Played!! Kilgore Mar 2014 #3

Slow down... Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #4

The West? Kilgore Mar 2014 #6

It's not the west that left the ex-Soviet Union people cold and hungry muriel_volestrangler Mar 2014 #7

And it was the Marcos family that exploited The Philippines for so long... Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #8

I beg to differ... Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #85

But the assets weren't scooped up by Westerners muriel_volestrangler Mar 2014 #93

The Russian oligarchs scooped up the assets - Russia has 95 billionaires. hack89 Mar 2014 #52

see above Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #86

The first crude steam engine was invented while the Brits were still painting themselves blue Fumesucker Mar 2014 #10

Calling that an 'engine' is pushing it - what did it do? muriel_volestrangler Mar 2014 #11

Converted thermal energy to mechanical energy n/t Fumesucker Mar 2014 #13

I do that too. But I'm not an engine. More like a 4-in-1 conversion device from Husky tools. n/t jtuck004 Mar 2014 #14

It turned itself around. It didn't turn anything else around. muriel_volestrangler Mar 2014 #26

Proximate cause... truth2power Mar 2014 #27

Great article. Rec'd. Very insightful Catherina Mar 2014 #5

You nailed it. Demeter Mar 2014 #12

Is this a joke post? joshcryer Mar 2014 #22

You say "Wait and see, Putin has backed himself into a corner"... truth2power Mar 2014 #37

Putin has pissed away any kind of goodwill he had in Ukraine. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #41

Finally, You've hit the Nub of the issue of concern, but you don't seem to have given any 2banon Mar 2014 #80

Russia is not entitled to a 'sphere of influence' over its neighbors geek tragedy Mar 2014 #84

Russian Imperialism is no more or less deserving than Western Imperialism 2banon Mar 2014 #91

Are you really using a link from Russia Today to back your argument? Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Mar 2014 #65

Thanks for link to Escobar post...! KoKo Mar 2014 #88

Fracking is not the saving grace folks think it is. go west young man Mar 2014 #126

All hail Vlad the Great! geek tragedy Mar 2014 #30

Geek, you can do better than that. I know you can. truth2power Mar 2014 #39

that person has called for Obama to be impeached on numerous geek tragedy Mar 2014 #40

Calling people "Putin fans" because you dont agree with them is childish. If you have a rhett o rick Mar 2014 #46

not childish, accurate geek tragedy Mar 2014 #50

Labeling people as "Putin fans" is an attempt to shame them into silence. If you disagree rhett o rick Mar 2014 #54

I do not recall you objecting to sneers at, for example, the BOG geek tragedy Mar 2014 #59

I think you might be confusing "line up behind Putin" with "dont show blind allegiance to rhett o rick Mar 2014 #117

you don't notice a correlation between the "Syria didn't use that poison gas" geek tragedy Mar 2014 #118

So what did happen in Ukraine? You seem to know what didnt happen. nm rhett o rick Mar 2014 #120

Ukrainians decided they had enough of the corrupt gangster President geek tragedy Mar 2014 #121

Many of us "Putinistas" as you call us... go west young man Mar 2014 #127

+1 treestar Mar 2014 #124

What one may see as attempt to shame others may also... LanternWaste Mar 2014 #108

Yeah, Putin wants to steal the money for himself instead. chrisa Mar 2014 #35

Crimea was 'transfered' in the 50's, but do you know how it came to have a majority Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #23

The Tatars are not indigenous, they're a fusion of nomadic groups from Genghis Khan's army Catherina Mar 2014 #62

Putin RAWKS! nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #25

He rides bears and has muscles! chrisa Mar 2014 #36

Man boobs are not muscle Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Mar 2014 #66

And those moobs were no doubt created by AMERICAN food. chrisa Mar 2014 #68

Man boobs are not muscle, their not? Throckmorton Mar 2014 #105

Exactly, and to be more specific: NATO's Nuclear Missiles installations in Poland 2banon Mar 2014 #43

+1 and lol, how's that scam of a missile defense shield coming along? Catherina Mar 2014 #75

all this crap courtesy of the American Tax Payers... sheesh. 2banon Mar 2014 #82

On the money. go west young man Mar 2014 #128

Good to see you posting again Catherina. nm rhett o rick Mar 2014 #48

Hi Rhett! Thanks for starting the Progressive Media Resources Group Catherina Mar 2014 #64

There's a progressive media resources group? Who knew? What's it under? i don't see it? eom truth2power Mar 2014 #109

Here you go, the "Progressive Media Resources Group" Catherina Mar 2014 #116

Thanks Catherina. I found it because someone PM'd me to ask that I post truth2power Mar 2014 #123

So quasi-socialist countries should invade countries they call fascist and carve off pieces? Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2014 #9

"fuck the EU" < We have only the wittiest, most professional people on these important affairs. n/t jtuck004 Mar 2014 #15

That remark was only in the very limited context of the early stage of the Ukraine crisis. Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2014 #16

I am guessing most of them don't speak for the State Department who are paid by people that jtuck004 Mar 2014 #17

It is a dumb ass thing for a "diplomat" to say, at any time. bemildred Mar 2014 #38

Yes, not "diplomatic" or professional language or attitude, but it did not get us into Iraq. Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2014 #44

Yes, it did. That arrogance is exactly what got us into Iraq. bemildred Mar 2014 #57

lol Love it. ctsnowman Mar 2014 #18

+1. And on unsecured cell phones at that n/t Catherina Mar 2014 #67

Oh, for Christ's sake. Ukraine is responsible for Ukraine. Russia for Russia. randome Mar 2014 #19

The excuses for Russia invading and being on the brink of annexing Crimea are hilarious. nt stevenleser Mar 2014 #20

Why do you think Russia invaded the Crimea? KoKo Mar 2014 #34

I think it is a simple face saving measure for his guy getting kicked out of Kyiv. stevenleser Mar 2014 #71

It doesn't bother you that Neo Cons were involved KoKo Mar 2014 #81

If you lose the war of ideas, you lose stevenleser Mar 2014 #90

Losing the War of Ideas.... KoKo Mar 2014 #101

Excuses for Provocations vis a vis NATO Missile installations in Poland are not so hilarious. 2banon Mar 2014 #45

NATO missiles in Poland = Excuse to invade a part of Ukraine? Yes, that's hilarious. nt stevenleser Mar 2014 #70

Hilarious is it? You weren't alive during the Cuban Missile Crises... 2banon Mar 2014 #89

It's a confluence of many currents- that's one and cali Mar 2014 #21

+1 newfie11 Mar 2014 #24

Cali....Seumas Milne is a Reporter for the Guardian...here is his background: KoKo Mar 2014 #33

KoKo, It's classic propaganda. It fulfills all the elements cali Mar 2014 #49

Then what article would you point to that you've read to counter what KoKo Mar 2014 #63

Uhm. He is pretty much a biased party writing an opinion column Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #53

I agree with the fact that History is chock full of more egregious examples, but I disagree 2banon Mar 2014 #47

Russia invaded Crimea. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #28

Context sir, there's a bit more to the story, than "Russia invading" Crimea.. 2banon Mar 2014 #51

There are always excuses for unprovoked wars of aggression. nt stevenleser Mar 2014 #72

Quite. Laelth Mar 2014 #131

That would work if it was Cheney or Bush saying it. Not me saying it. Not Barack Obama saying it. stevenleser Mar 2014 #133

Fair enough. Laelth Mar 2014 #135

The Guardian has to stick to the anti-US narrative come hell or high water... SidDithers Mar 2014 #29

Milne was infamous for gloating after the 9/11 attacks nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #32

I suppose you prefer the American Exceptionalism of ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN and Fox. nm rhett o rick Mar 2014 #55

You can suppose whatever makes you happy...nt SidDithers Mar 2014 #58

That's Milne, not The Guardian muriel_volestrangler Mar 2014 #79

True they are losing their reputation for objectivity at this point nt treestar Mar 2014 #125

"...new depths of self-parody" woo me with science Mar 2014 #42

I see that the actions of Russia have awakened the Neo-Cons both Repubs and Dems. rhett o rick Mar 2014 #56

I think it's more the actions of the Neocons have awakened Russia, bemildred Mar 2014 #60

Neocons, neolibs, what's the difference Catherina Mar 2014 #73

Damn little. nt bemildred Mar 2014 #74

It is an absurd fantasy to suppose that only Neocons object to Russia's behavior. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #61

I do not support Russian's actions. But I probably will disagree with the Neo-Con's rhett o rick Mar 2014 #77

as far as I can tell, virtually no one here is calling for war. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #78

No war, just a showdown with big guns and missiles. right. 2banon Mar 2014 #95

no, diplomatic and economic sanctions nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #96

And if that doesn't work out, what follows? 2banon Mar 2014 #97

more diplomacy, and if necessary a stand off nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #98

Yes, a Return to the "Cold War" status.. 2banon Mar 2014 #99

Ukraine can decide to opt out of being in Russia's sphere if it so chooses nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #100

true. do you think there will be a split? 2banon Mar 2014 #102

Crimea will become part of Russia, the rest will become firmly geek tragedy Mar 2014 #103

In Agreement. 2banon Mar 2014 #110

I've actually been thinking about that concept a lot... Pholus Mar 2014 #111

Along those lines.. 2banon Mar 2014 #113

your red baiting is disappointing to say the least. 2banon Mar 2014 #92

no one favors war with Russia here, no one. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #94

international law, sovereignty, territorial integrity and.... resources! Catherina Mar 2014 #69

I shouldn't say this... KoKo Mar 2014 #114

We see eye to eye on that Catherina Mar 2014 #115

I'm curious why people think this is somehow just propaganda LittleBlue Mar 2014 #76

Exactly! All Points Well Made. Your logical summation seems to be MIA with others here.. 2banon Mar 2014 #83

Here's the real propaganda. ctsnowman Mar 2014 #87

NATO is not in Ukraine and that was not on the agenda. EU is a trade bloc Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #104

Map of NATO LittleBlue Mar 2014 #106

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and on and on. It's nearly All NATO 2banon Mar 2014 #119

Maybe not in Ukraine, but in & Poland that's enough to stir shit up. 2banon Mar 2014 #112

Because the author is a Russia/Soviet apologist. ProSense Mar 2014 #107

Down to Earth Observation....! KoKo Mar 2014 #122

Great post n/t Catherina Mar 2014 #136

I am quite embarrased by our hypocrisy on this issue. Laelth Mar 2014 #129

If it was George W. Bush complaining, like he did with South Ossetia, you would have a point. stevenleser Mar 2014 #134

I knew it! Benton D Struckcheon Mar 2014 #130