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stopbush

(24,810 posts)

191. Indeed. Likewise, it's also religious fanatics who are insisting that the WTC cross

Reply to hrmjustin (Reply #176)

Sat Mar 8, 2014, 03:37 PM

Mar 2014

be displayed as an artifact at the museum while not allowing non-religious symbols of equal size be displayed as well.

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Atheists� misguided fight over the 9/11 memorial [View all] Nye Bevan Mar 2014 OP

The holy rollers should keep it in their pants. blkmusclmachine Mar 2014 #1

Agreed. I'm not religious but I know a lot of Americans are Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #2

Yes, it's quite a leap from "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #3

+1 nt SunsetDreams Mar 2014 #8

+2 davidpdx Mar 2014 #91

+3 Kilgore Mar 2014 #97

What is more historical about that piece of scrap metal than any other scrap from the site? n/t Gore1FL Mar 2014 #202

Historically significant item? phil89 Mar 2014 #276

Read the article. joeglow3 Mar 2014 #278

I remember the days after 9/11, the memorials, the worship services Fumesucker Mar 2014 #7

That certainly wasn't what I was focused on-making 9/11 all about me Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #11

Like I said, it took a couple of days before I really noticed that no one had mentioned me Fumesucker Mar 2014 #17

You know what they say. "there are no atheists in suicide vests" Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #20

Don't you just love the in your face version of Christianity and how they Jamastiene Mar 2014 #131

I'll never forget Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson on 9/13. Mariana Mar 2014 #141

Yup. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #147

+10 stopbush Mar 2014 #168

Nor were Pagans mentioned, as if we are something to be swept under the carpet. Hestia Mar 2014 #254

i feel you dawg. dionysus Mar 2014 #85

And there is plenty of religious symbolism in DC The Straight Story Mar 2014 #12

When Christianity turns into a myth, you will have a point. Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #34

You mean like talking donkeys, talking snakes, and talking bushes? Major Nikon Mar 2014 #101

Exactly. Worse, most Xians assume that the Bible is historically accurate. It isn't. stopbush Mar 2014 #169

Except 'Gone With The Wind' was an original story Major Nikon Mar 2014 #173

I believe the more accurate term would be "acculturation" rather than"plagiarized". LanternWaste Mar 2014 #307

I believe the more accurate term is plagiarized Major Nikon Mar 2014 #310

LOL! Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #227

Oh, many people don't think that Christianity is a myth. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #248

How is Gabriel any different from Zeus, Apollo, Hermes, et al? They too were considered divine and Hestia Mar 2014 #255

I didn't make up the deity rape story ... it's in that book that Xtians like to quote. Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #257

You haven't seen that "attitude" from me.... blueamy66 Mar 2014 #258

I am familiar with many cultures/countries/etc. and have friends of many beliefs Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #260

Exactly! n/t marew Mar 2014 #302

What do you mean, "turns into"? mr blur Mar 2014 #289

Moses on courts is about early law treestar Mar 2014 #209

"Jackass atheist zealot?" Hissyspit Mar 2014 #87

Clearly, the jackasses amuse bouche Mar 2014 #103

There's xtian symbolism. at a public memorial. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #114

It's the remains of a steel beam cross-bar. If others wish to make more of it, so what? hlthe2b Mar 2014 #127

That piece of Iron was cut to look like a cross. RC Mar 2014 #185

+1 Go Vols Mar 2014 #192

Who cares? hlthe2b Mar 2014 #204

Quite a lot of us care. RC Mar 2014 #220

If it is not a cross, as you seemingly agree then your point is rather moot. hlthe2b Mar 2014 #223

Then go throw your own symbol there. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #249

I don't have one, but if I did, it would be something more inclusive, to include everyone who died. RC Mar 2014 #252

I am Catholic. I don't feel persecuted, except at DU. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #253

Well, if it's just a chunk of steel, why not display it upside down from its Nay Mar 2014 #219

Only jackass Christian zealots are allowed to have a voice in this country. Got it. Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #228

"If Christ had lived in the modern age Christians would all be wearing little electric chairs" Fumesucker Mar 2014 #4

Or 9mm handgun. Jesus would have been gunned down by Judas Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #6

Nah, it would have gone more like this... Fumesucker Mar 2014 #10

I hadn't heard that one. GoneOffShore Mar 2014 #140

If they want to keep that cross there, fine. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #5

Well, it's not about THEM, it's about ME Scootaloo Mar 2014 #89

I saw that movie davidpdx Mar 2014 #92

Great post. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #134

I don't think it's misguided. Bonobo Mar 2014 #9

Then there are a lot of atheists just as intolerant and unfeeling as they Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #13

Feeling alienated when you see a religious icon that excludes you is not itself petty or intolerant. Bonobo Mar 2014 #15

True. I was not trying to minimize your feelings Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #22

Thanks! Bonobo Mar 2014 #26

Thank you for doing this. kwassa Mar 2014 #225

I, as a person raised in the Catholic Church, find the cross unsettling Maedhros Mar 2014 #83

And I, as a Jew (non-practicing) find it so as well. Bonobo Mar 2014 #84

I have a certain revulsion at the idea of making an icon from an instrument of torture.[n/t] Maedhros Mar 2014 #90

I never understood why others religious symbols and beliefs penultimate Mar 2014 #158

I find it alienating LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #164

What is the artifact honoring non-religious victims? n/t Beartracks Mar 2014 #207

a plaque (nt) LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #221

It's not just a memorial -- they're taking it as some kind of miracle starroute Mar 2014 #14

It gave comfort to a lotnof us here. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #18

Why? Hissyspit Mar 2014 #77

Those were dark days for me personally and it gave me a sense of hope that we would get hrmjustin Mar 2014 #78

A real miracle isn't it? RC Mar 2014 #194

For approximately the same reason that imaginary red and blue lines on a map give comfort to people LanternWaste Mar 2014 #308

And where was their asshole of a god on 9-11? What, "he" had something better to do than prevent Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #229

It's called free will. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #250

Yeah, that old saw. Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #256

If you feel that way, don't pray. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #288

Much as I use to think in regards to my parents LanternWaste Mar 2014 #309

+1000 Tom Ripley Mar 2014 #301

It is a part of the story and I say leave it in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #16

Then let us put up a plaque LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #24

I am all for it. No opposition from me. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #25

I know LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #29

Too bad there weren't any churches around, eh? Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2014 #94

There are plenty but it belongs in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #117

I think you're right. Mariana Mar 2014 #149

I think the atheists have a point quinnox Mar 2014 #19

It is debris not a religious item. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #21

Forgive me, but that is just plain disingenuous. Bonobo Mar 2014 #28

We can argue what others think of the cross all day long but the metal itself is debris and... hrmjustin Mar 2014 #31

Yes, I appreciate that it is a sign of redemption for you and other Christians. Bonobo Mar 2014 #39

The cross is a part of the 9 11 story and should be a part of the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #42

A distinction without a difference. Bonobo Mar 2014 #46

Yes it was given attention because it was a cross but also because it hrmjustin Mar 2014 #50

So you dont mind Eko Mar 2014 #67

Yes I do and at this point I doubt that would be allowed. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #70

Which means absolutely nothing. phil89 Mar 2014 #279

Your opinion and and we will have to disagree. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #281

It is no more part of the history than any other scrap hauled away from the site. n/t Gore1FL Mar 2014 #203

Well people who were down there disagree. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #211

They would disagree because they "found" religious meaning in it Gore1FL Mar 2014 #226

For Christians it is the sign of redemption. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #230

It's JUST debris Hissyspit Mar 2014 #79

I never said it was just debris. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #80

Correct, I misread what you wrote. Hissyspit Mar 2014 #81

As a technical matter it is just debris. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #82

From the POV pipi_k Mar 2014 #125

It was debris until it was purposely altered Major Nikon Mar 2014 #104

Except that it wasn't purposely altered. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #111

Did you read the OP? Major Nikon Mar 2014 #112

Yes. But I also have my own memories which do not match the twist in the article. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #162

Someone found an image of Jesus on a dog's ass also Major Nikon Mar 2014 #170

You are being disingenuous Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #199

You are being just flat wrong Major Nikon Mar 2014 #210

That bill has not passed. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #214

You are correct on the building fund. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #224

I'm not convinced it's a legal use of the money Major Nikon Mar 2014 #232

It is really not even a close legal call. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #233

It is exactly what happened Major Nikon Mar 2014 #236

Tell that to the guy who found it. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #239

It gave people "hope and comfort" because of its Christian symbology Major Nikon Mar 2014 #240

And if you were Jewish - Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #241

It certainly was altered. From the article: phil89 Mar 2014 #282

As I've said before, the article is twisting the facts. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #287

Well from polls I seen people want it in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #118

You can say the same thing about Proposition 8 Major Nikon Mar 2014 #124

Putting a cross in a museum is nit the same as prop 8 but I understand your point. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #126

Both are civil rights issues Major Nikon Mar 2014 #128

No one is being oppressed by these beams being put in a museum. Offended yes but not oppressed. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #129

It's state promotion of Christianity Major Nikon Mar 2014 #133

I imagine it would not get the same support. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #135

I'm sure it does, but not one tax dollars support Major Nikon Mar 2014 #137

I don't know about who is funding it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #139

The funds come from public and private sources Major Nikon Mar 2014 #143

Well I think it won't cost much to deal with this thing. They can designate privste funds for it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #144

That's not the issue Major Nikon Mar 2014 #150

Again I understand how you feel but in this case I think these beams belong in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #151

You might have at least a shot at an argument IF COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #263

Because it became part of the story and that is what museums are about. Telling the story. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #265

What "story"? The story that some Xian folk cut the COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #267

Yea that is about the story. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #268

I agree. And that's why it's not constitutional to COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #269

I also see it as a separation of church and state issue marions ghost Mar 2014 #290

I'm for leaving the cross at the WTC as a reminder that the buildings were brought down stopbush Mar 2014 #174

Now that is an interesting take on it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #176

Indeed. Likewise, it's also religious fanatics who are insisting that the WTC cross stopbush Mar 2014 #191

Am I a religious fanatic because I think it belongs in the museum? hrmjustin Mar 2014 #193

Not necessarily. Depends on your reasons for putting it in the museum. stopbush Mar 2014 #195

Lol well I asked. I appreciate your point of view and honesty. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #196

Actually the way I take it, JoeyT Mar 2014 #237

I take from it perseverance. When I saw it I saw that we will prevail. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #238

As a Christian you saw it as a symbol of "we will prevail" marions ghost Mar 2014 #306

"Debris" gave you comfort? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #30

Yes it did. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #32

What was so special about this piece of "debris" that made it different than all the rest? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #36

It was a symbol of perseverance for some. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #38

LOL, yes. BECAUSE it is a cross. Not because it is debris. Bonobo Mar 2014 #43

This message was self-deleted by its author hrmjustin Mar 2014 #45

A symbol? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #44

Indeed it does. also the sign of faith of many NYers. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #47

And of course the rest of those New Yorkers don't count anyway.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #52

Well atheists count in my book. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #54

As long as they are "good" atheists.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #58

I was aware of the offer. I live here in NY and I find your first remark insulting. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #64

I find the lie in the OP insulting Fumesucker Mar 2014 #93

Oh you were referring to the op not me? hrmjustin Mar 2014 #123

Then you should have no objection to this piece being replaced with a less offensive piece, right? Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #55

Yes I object. This piece of debris is a part of the story. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #60

Every piece is part of the story. This is just a particularly offensive piece. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #66

Well we will just have to disagree. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #68

Thank you. If it is debris, it is debris. Can't have it both ways. Bonobo Mar 2014 #40

The Arizona is debris. There have been quite a few religious services on this government property. rug Mar 2014 #197

Arizona is hallowed ground. No more violative of the 1st COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #264

So is the WTC, if you insist on the word "hallowed". rug Mar 2014 #266

Yep and there have been dozens if not more COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #270

It's also an artifact of a human reaction to the eveent. rug Mar 2014 #271

Interesting idea but as a legal argument COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #272

That's the argument of the District Court. rug Mar 2014 #273

Line of questions doesn't indicate COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #299

What is that supposed to mean? COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #300

"...and had the 17-foot-tall, 4,000-pound cross cut from it" Silent3 Mar 2014 #33

That maybe true but it is debris. It is also a part of the story here in NY and should be a part hrmjustin Mar 2014 #37

What if it had been cut into the shape of a Golden Calf? nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #48

Then they have talent. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #51

I was reading down through and... that was freaking funny. nt 1awake Mar 2014 #107

Thank you. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #119

It was a cross fashioned from debris. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #57

It was cut. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #61

Incredible (accidental?) symmetry! Bonobo Mar 2014 #69

Look you don't have to like it but the courts appear to be on the side of allowing it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #72

Do me a favor and answer this question: Bonobo Mar 2014 #74

I personally would think it fine. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #75

Thank you for your answer. nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #76

Did you know Silverman and AA opposed a prominent Star of David at a Holocaust museum? rug Mar 2014 #200

Again, they were asking for equal time LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #242

I don't think you'll win the argument that atheists as a group suffered equally in rhe Holocaust. rug Mar 2014 #247

Was not talking about atheists LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #259

So if someone had turned 9/11 debris into a giant dildo, you'd still be saying... Silent3 Mar 2014 #216

If they did that it definitely shoold be in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #217

Could someone tell me what is so wrong with including a plaque LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #23

Now that puts things in a different light indeed.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #27

Yeah but WE ARE THE BAD GUYS HERE LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #35

In fact, it doesn't even put things in a "different" light skepticscott Mar 2014 #96

Nope, it's only the Christians who matter. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #136

So. All 3000 who died were Christians? No. Just who are we honoring here? Only the Christians who Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #41

Because everyone else is going to Hell of course Fumesucker Mar 2014 #49

Thank you Mother Mary Magellan who taught me that lesson oh so many decades ago. Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #56

I think it is really sad how some Christians are incapable of seeing the world through anything liberal_at_heart Mar 2014 #53

If someone were to suggest a Star of David be put up to commemorate the 9/11 victims... Bonobo Mar 2014 #59

It's completely different Fumesucker Mar 2014 #65

+9,001 (nt) LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #86

More that christians and atheists were killed that day.. jews, buddhists, hindis, muslims, agnostics Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #62

Wiccans, Sikhs, there might even have been a Shinto or a Jain or two Fumesucker Mar 2014 #71

I support cutting it up, selling the scrap, and using the money for a true memorial. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #63

+1 Hissyspit Mar 2014 #73

Take something that is meaningful to people, and scrap it for what? tritsofme Mar 2014 #132

Because the damn thing is ugly, for starters. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #142

lol, right...how absurd to have a symbol of the tragedy at a museum commemorating it. tritsofme Mar 2014 #190

The desire to ignore that AA simply wants to put a plaque there LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #198

I started replying to the person who proposed sending it to the scrapper, literally erasing it. tritsofme Mar 2014 #201

It is a symbol of hate -- the same type of bronze age delusional that inspired the hijackers.... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #244

Never, never... liberalmuse Mar 2014 #88

What a shitty article upholding Christian privilege... MellowDem Mar 2014 #95

Considering the WTC was a shrine to Mammon, this is ironic. WinkyDink Mar 2014 #98

No, it is fitting. Ikonoklast Mar 2014 #160

Point WELL taken. WinkyDink Mar 2014 #235

So some world trade worker comes up with his version of Jesus-burnt-toast or water-stain-Jesus.... Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2014 #99

It wasn't even that good Major Nikon Mar 2014 #105

There is a Jesus stencil for toast. I have one Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #153

Does it look something like this... Major Nikon Mar 2014 #154

read the article people edhopper Mar 2014 #100

Nope they want to shove it down our throats, because it gave them comfort. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #145

"The beam was pulled from the wreakage and CUT INTO A CROSS!" amuse bouche Mar 2014 #303

Religion brought us 911, so I guess a cross is historuically correct. BlueStreak Mar 2014 #102

If it were not in the shape of a cross.. pangaia Mar 2014 #106

Let's not be ingenuous. This artifact COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #108

Exactly amuse bouche Mar 2014 #109

Agreed. The discovered girder crosspiece was snipped to the proportions of the Xtian cross. John1956PA Mar 2014 #152

Yup RedCappedBandit Mar 2014 #205

too bad people just can't get along Niceguy1 Mar 2014 #110

There's nothing misguided about that at all. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #113

Mary Elizabeth Williams is one of Salon's stable of anti-atheism/pro-Catholicism writers MNBrewer Mar 2014 #115

Does it stand to signify the Crusade Bush undertook in response to this attack Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #116

In reality, yes. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #146

If it is on public property, it is in fact illegal. alarimer Mar 2014 #120

I favor its removal. Chan790 Mar 2014 #121

The "cross" is not "part of what happened". It was manufactured. After the fact. NYC Liberal Mar 2014 #122

Agreed. I'd give the sculpture to a church in the area affected by 9/11. DinahMoeHum Mar 2014 #165

Just so I'm clear on this, God killed 3000+ people to create an ugly sculpture? Orrex Mar 2014 #177

I still wish the atheists could win more often. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #130

Best post. Ever. GreenEyedLefty Mar 2014 #180

Both the holy rollers and the faithiests need to chill out seveneyes Mar 2014 #138

I think you are miss using the word faithiest LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #155

Well I did mean it as Faith + Atheist seveneyes Mar 2014 #183

Faitheist usually means an Atheist who promotes religion LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #184

Atheism has no dogma phil89 Mar 2014 #283

Salon's on a roll with these irrational polemics lately. DirkGently Mar 2014 #148

Excellent! John1956PA Mar 2014 #213

I'm a fervent atheist, but I believe this is the wrong fight. dballance Mar 2014 #156

So you support AA in LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #157

I would certainly support other religions/non-religions honoring their dead. However, dballance Mar 2014 #163

I get and respect that LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #166

My town held a big Jesus festival in the park after 9/11... Walk away Mar 2014 #159

I have never in my life heard a Christian claim that "Christians are so great". Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #171

It happened in Rutherford NJ and it's one of the reasons... Walk away Mar 2014 #186

Yeah... How dare those lousy atheists want to propagate reason Ohio Joe Mar 2014 #161

Because it's always misguided to fight for a Constitutional principle. stopbush Mar 2014 #167

What are these atheists so worried about? Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #172

When you can present a Constitutional argument, we'll talk. stopbush Mar 2014 #175

When Congress makes a law respecting an establishment of religion, we'll talk (nt) Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #179

Displaying Christian symbols on public property COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #261

The ACLU often defends white supremacists Major Nikon Mar 2014 #178

They want a more inclusive monument Fumesucker Mar 2014 #181

It helps make the irrational beliefs behind religion seem ok when they're really not. phil89 Mar 2014 #284

As a long-time atheist, I'm of two minds regarding this. MineralMan Mar 2014 #182

+1 as a Christian I agree TNLib Mar 2014 #187

Thanks! MineralMan Mar 2014 #188

Excellent post. 2banon Mar 2014 #246

I vehemently disagree amuse bouche Mar 2014 #189

Nah, it's not a misguided fight. nt RedCappedBandit Mar 2014 #206

If the cross was of significant meaning for Christian rescuers at the site.... Beartracks Mar 2014 #208

I'm not sure the cross is meant to "honor" anyone goldent Mar 2014 #215

A two-ton memorial is not "tiny" starroute Mar 2014 #231

Every one of the rescue workers were Christians? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #222

Of course not. But obviously the one(s) who fashioned the cross were. n/t Beartracks Mar 2014 #274

The cross doesn't "do" anything. It's an inert piece COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #262

Simply including the cross at a public museum wouldn't be promoting a religion... Beartracks Mar 2014 #275

First of all, displaying it in a museum - public or private COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #298

OK, I must admit I don't know where or how it is being displayed. Beartracks Mar 2014 #311

This message was self-deleted by its author goldent Mar 2014 #212

As an atheist I have no problem with the cross. nt hack89 Mar 2014 #218

As a non-atheist, I do marions ghost Mar 2014 #292

I just think we have bigger issues in America to deal with hack89 Mar 2014 #293

If we didn't have the religious fundies marions ghost Mar 2014 #294

This has nothing to do with religious fundies hack89 Mar 2014 #295

It has everything to do with Fundyism marions ghost Mar 2014 #296

ok nt hack89 Mar 2014 #297

Considering the location, a dollar sign-shaped steel beam would be more appropriate Tom Ripley Mar 2014 #234

good point marions ghost Mar 2014 #291

I think I vaguely understand cvoogt Mar 2014 #243

seems like this post should be in the religious forum 2banon Mar 2014 #245

FFS DustyJoe Mar 2014 #251

I'm sick of being surrounded by people's superstitious symbolism.... mike_c Mar 2014 #277

Hear, Here! 2banon Mar 2014 #280

This. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #285

Yep. amuse bouche Mar 2014 #304

Exactly. DavidDvorkin Mar 2014 #305

I Agree 100% Corey_Baker08 Mar 2014 #286

The same people out there who are up in arms about the opposition to this religious symbol edhopper Mar 2014 #312