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goldent

(1,582 posts)

198. I think there is more to this story than we know

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:33 AM

Mar 2014

I first thought that the American Atheists weren't thinking clearly, or didn't have their best people working on this, when they decided to make a legal challenge.

But it goes against any semblance of common sense, and has every appearance of masochism on the part of the American Atheists. The only thing that could make it worse would be if they won the case. Of course they have no chance of winning -- arguing that historical events that have a religious element are not actually part of history is absurd. And implying that the cross is somehow honoring the Christian victims of the attack shows a complete misunderstanding of its actual historical significance.

So I'm still puzzled at why the American Atheists did this. In another thread, I mentioned that sometimes major donors with an ideological streak can force organizations to do things that really don't make sense (as a condition of their donations). It can also be leadership gone amok in an organization that doesn't have a solid system of corporate governance.

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About that cross at Ground Zero... [View all] Bonobo Mar 2014 OP

This atheist says so what? hack89 Mar 2014 #1

This atheist says put it in a church if you like it so much. Bonobo Mar 2014 #2

Why do you care AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #9

Why does it have to be about me personally? Bonobo Mar 2014 #10

It is beautiful yeoman6987 Mar 2014 #11

Maybe it should be put on top of the new tower in that case! Bonobo Mar 2014 #12

lol. yeoman6987 Mar 2014 #13

So all you see is hatred AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #15

When people who feel isolated by such things talk about their experience they are attacked Fumesucker Mar 2014 #21

I don't want to attack a soul AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #35

"I don't want to atttack a soul" - "Joyless existence of certain atheists" Fumesucker Mar 2014 #40

I am sorry AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #42

One or two posters on DU constitute a faction of atheism? You are an analyst right? Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #44

Central Asia AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #80

Someone who disagrees with you on this is automatically "joyless"? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #47

You poor fool. Don't you realize your happiness is actually sadness? Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #63

Thank you sir, may I have another? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #68

My faith AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #83

You've actually resorted to preaching Christianity. Is this a joke? Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #105

I think we may have been epically Poed Fumesucker Mar 2014 #126

Interesting question AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #140

You're pretty good Fumesucker Mar 2014 #156

No someone who is joyless is joyless AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #75

And you are capable of telling in a post or two who is "joyless" and who is not? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #82

No not most people AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #95

Just *those* people Fumesucker Mar 2014 #103

Don't care AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #104

The OP was pointing out that another poster had used an incorrect picture Fumesucker Mar 2014 #113

Again AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #116

Feel the love... Fumesucker Mar 2014 #122

It's all that joy. nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #128

I have nothing but love in my heart AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #136

Brilliant troll, man Fumesucker Mar 2014 #139

That doesn't mean I have to be polite to disruptors however LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #224

Duplicate Fumesucker Mar 2014 #118

What is the point of feeling "isolated" by anything? treestar Mar 2014 #76

What is the "point" of any emotion? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #79

Some people find it comforting, some don't, it makes some uncomfortable treestar Mar 2014 #235

You still miss the point of the original dispute Fumesucker Mar 2014 #240

No, you don't get it. Religion is irrational by definition 2banon Mar 2014 #203

Oh lawdy lawd... Lost_Count Mar 2014 #24

You would NOT advocate for a Muslim symbol there I bet. Bonobo Mar 2014 #26

LOL AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #30

What utter bollocks. You get your talking points from Fox News. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #41

No from AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #88

No, I'm saying you literally have your talking points from Fox News... Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #102

Good lord AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #108

You just blamed the 9/11 attacks on Islam. Do you not remember that, Mr. Tolerance? Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #124

I blamed it on AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #130

You said: "I would not advocate a symbol of the faith that made 9/11 happen." Bonobo Mar 2014 #145

A symbol of the faith AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #148

"I would not advocate a symbol of the faith that made 9/11 happen" Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #158

No I didn't AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #162

Your words were crystal clear. Marr Mar 2014 #271

Ha ha. If that is a straw man, you have encased it it solid titanium. Bonobo Mar 2014 #54

What is the symbol of Fundamentalist Faith as that is what made 9/11 happen? uppityperson Mar 2014 #84

Wow. Now I'm dead against the inclusion of that cross. Marr Mar 2014 #270

That would indeed be a rare piece... Lost_Count Mar 2014 #222

That's absurd treestar Mar 2014 #74

No, THAT is absurd. Reductio ad absurdum to be exact. nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #77

Because you're the one whining that it needs to be "put in a church if you like it so much!" MADem Mar 2014 #185

dunno bout you, but i'm atheist and don't feel threatened when passing by churches and religious dionysus Mar 2014 #201

I never understood the "Don't know about you, but listen to me" thing. Bonobo Mar 2014 #202

you shared your opinion, and prompted responses by making it an OP. i responded with my opinion... dionysus Mar 2014 #204

Yeah, I get it, but I don't understand the useless "I dunno about you" thing. Bonobo Mar 2014 #205

it's just something i put in front of sentences sometimes, especially when i am stoned. i didn't dionysus Mar 2014 #206

God, I want to be stoned. Bonobo Mar 2014 #208

d'oh!!! now i feel bad! dionysus Mar 2014 #209

Yar, it sucks. Bonobo Mar 2014 #211

you're in japan, right? big city like tokyo? dionysus Mar 2014 #212

Nope, quite the opposite. Bonobo Mar 2014 #214

well, i hope it's nice and not freezing like here. no offence meant with my posts. dionysus Mar 2014 #219

Every time I have to see a cross... Scruffy Rumbler Mar 2014 #250

Do you think prayer in public schools "gives millions of people comfort"? DefenseLawyer Mar 2014 #265

This atheist agrees Warpy Mar 2014 #58

^ this ^ defacto7 Mar 2014 #207

Yep. And just ignoring these little incursions into the public sphere only encourages it. /nt Marr Mar 2014 #273

...^ that 840high Mar 2014 #19

I think it should stay NoGOPZone Mar 2014 #3

True, put it so it looks like an "X". nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #6

Yeah, that's what I said in the first thread on this cross. Turn it upside down Nay Mar 2014 #8

I met Fr Jordan several times at the site. He was very comforting during those days. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #4

Huh, the cross piece changed direction. uppityperson Mar 2014 #5

It must be a miracle. nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #7

The many threads about this item prove that it really is part of the 9/11 story. Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #14

This^ AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #18

I know you are aware by now that this is over including a plaque to honor non Christians who died Fumesucker Mar 2014 #135

+1 Marr Mar 2014 #274

The number of threads proves nothing of the sort. morningfog Mar 2014 #188

It absolutely belongs there badtoworse Mar 2014 #16

Thank you. 840high Mar 2014 #17

What was prominent? The photo I showed that is NOT the same as the erected monument? Bonobo Mar 2014 #20

How do you know that? Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #22

By looking at the photos. Have a look yourself. nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #23

Actually, on edit, you are right they aren't the same. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #25

Which begs the question (or answers the question) Bonobo Mar 2014 #29

Check my other post. The cross was from a different beam. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #32

Good catch, but I posted a photo disseminated by a DU'er falsely as the same cross. nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #38

On second review, they aren't the same because your first photo is incorrect... Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #28

Is so, then ok, but a DU'er posted the one that I posted as "original". Bonobo Mar 2014 #34

As I've argued elsewhere, what matters is not that a cross is there... Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #37

Perhaps, but it is clearly being venerated as a religious symbol. Bonobo Mar 2014 #48

But wouldn't adding a plaque LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #225

Here are the 2, looks like the same one. I have no problem with it, only with what people try to uppityperson Mar 2014 #91

I worked at 111 Broadway (around the corner from the WTC) and I was there on 9/11 badtoworse Mar 2014 #31

Are you a Christian? Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #33

I am one person who believes that many thousands took comfort from that cross badtoworse Mar 2014 #66

I think all personal bias is relevant, be it Atheism or Christianity. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #71

It's obviously a religious symbol. In this instance, it doesn't matter. badtoworse Mar 2014 #223

Which cross? They are two different ones made with an obvious difference once you notice Fumesucker Mar 2014 #53

I noticed that and edited my post. The second picture looks like the cross that stood for years. badtoworse Mar 2014 #60

Just to make it a little easier to see the difference Fumesucker Mar 2014 #27

Apparently it is a different cross. And I don't think it matters. It's a red herring. Bonobo Mar 2014 #36

It seems the entire basis of this thread is that the crosses were not the same. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #39

No, that picture in the OP was originally posted by another DUer in a couple of other threads Fumesucker Mar 2014 #43

I have another argument (in addition to it debunking a DU'ers wrong photo) Bonobo Mar 2014 #45

I'm not in favor of being an historical erasure because religious symbols can be dangerous. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #50

So we should just load the place up with every religious symbol as a sort of counterbalance, eh? Bonobo Mar 2014 #52

Anyone who comes forward saying their religion or non-religion is relevant gets a place. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #56

the cross is pertinent to the whole incident Niceguy1 Mar 2014 #46

A swastika is an inanimate object and is very offensive to a lot of people Fumesucker Mar 2014 #49

I was referring to, common objects seen in our society Niceguy1 Mar 2014 #57

A Confederate flag is not that uncommon in many parts of the USA Fumesucker Mar 2014 #59

fine... Niceguy1 Mar 2014 #64

Exactly our point Fumesucker Mar 2014 #70

funny, of all the time I have spent Niceguy1 Mar 2014 #72

You keep making foolish generalizations Fumesucker Mar 2014 #78

most arent Niceguy1 Mar 2014 #85

So what? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #90

on the other side of the coin Niceguy1 Mar 2014 #99

So you agree you shouldn't be attacking the feelings of a minority? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #107

The majority? stevil Mar 2014 #121

Some people.... stevil Mar 2014 #115

Anyone who goes to the Holocaust Memorial Museum will see plenty of swastikas. Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #92

Indeed, are the swastikas considered holy and comforting by most of those who visit? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #97

Fucking hell stevil Mar 2014 #132

The cross is there because it was considered holy and made people feel comforted.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #137

Nope, it's there because it stood at Ground Zero for more than a decade, Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #155

I'm starting to think you are a Poe too.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #161

Why stevil Mar 2014 #160

It causes "dyspepsia, depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish" Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #173

There is medication AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #192

Much of which defacto7 Mar 2014 #215

WTF? AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #218

Did you mean to say defacto7 Mar 2014 #221

As I recall the Holocaust Museum doesn't COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #243

Perhaps because a "huge steel swastika" is not part of the history of the Holocaust? Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #246

Are you serious? After Germany surrendered I COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #247

OK, if you are concerned that the Holocaust Memorial Museum does not display enough swastikas, Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #248

You are deliberately missing the point. COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #262

Museums commonly have both indoor and outdoor exhibits. Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #263

The artifact isn't being preserved as part of an COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #264

Your response (to which this exchange has been COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #249

"I would suggest counseling as they have some serious issues." Bonobo Mar 2014 #51

no, not agressive Niceguy1 Mar 2014 #55

Maybe the "issue" is the society is fucked up.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #61

Context is everything. Bonobo Mar 2014 #62

there shouldn't be any different in seeing Niceguy1 Mar 2014 #67

I could not understand your post. Bonobo Mar 2014 #69

Can somebody strap a mindwalker_i Mar 2014 #65

Huge atheist here, it seems more like a historical item to me. nt Logical Mar 2014 #73

Which cross? They are two different ones made with an obvious difference once you notice Fumesucker Mar 2014 #86

Really? Bonobo Mar 2014 #89

He's just being Logical n/t Fumesucker Mar 2014 #93

A priest can do that on anything, doesn't mean anything. Nt Logical Mar 2014 #152

Should priests be able to keep historical items out of museums by sprinkling holy water on them? nt Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #178

And I'm severely atheist Capt. Obvious Mar 2014 #242

I don't have a problem since the site is still a cemetery... Historic NY Mar 2014 #81

since i don't believe in god it doesn't really bother me JI7 Mar 2014 #87

That cross is the most disrespectful and tackiest thing I have ever seen. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #94

Pure parody AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #96

Yeah like these.... Historic NY Mar 2014 #196

Holy Shit! Is this Crucifix porn? WhaTHellsgoingonhere Mar 2014 #98

This OP makes me want to vomit. WilliamPitt Mar 2014 #100

Well said AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #101

I'm sure the non-xtians would perished on 9/11 would agree with that. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #111

Seriously AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #112

People who perished on 9/11 weren't only xtians. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #120

I can't speak for other Christians AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #134

Too much information, dude. nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #142

Just being as absurd AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #144

Wha WilliamPitt Mar 2014 #114

"It will be a Religious War, a sort of Christian Jihad..." Bonobo Mar 2014 #125

YES, I'm quite convinced that very nearly ALL of the non-xtians sibelian Mar 2014 #229

Thanks for replying to this... Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #232

You are most welcome. sibelian Mar 2014 #233

This message was self-deleted by its author LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #237

You left out Islam, FYI. Because you think Islam caused 9/11. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #164

No AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #166

Why didn't you mention Islamic symbolism in your post? Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #172

To piss you off AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #177

Two word response. Bonobo Mar 2014 #106

Bless you. WilliamPitt Mar 2014 #109

Being lectured by you to not discuss hot-button issues. Bonobo Mar 2014 #119

I am AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #123

"...dollars to donuts that you are as white and waspy as the day is long." WilliamPitt Mar 2014 #129

"It will be a Religious War, a sort of Christian Jihad." Yep. Bonobo Mar 2014 #133

LOL AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #138

Jesus Saves? AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #110

Bergeron scores. WilliamPitt Mar 2014 #117

Lobbing a molotov cocktail into GD is the whole damn point of many folks Fumesucker Mar 2014 #141

"Do you not think 9/11 and religion are emotional for those who disagree with you also?" WilliamPitt Mar 2014 #143

What do you think this is? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #147

So your hobby AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #150

No, my hobby is arguing with stupid people on the internet about senseless stuff, just like yours is Fumesucker Mar 2014 #167

I am just here to AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #171

Dude you're cracking me up.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #180

Maybe I will get in AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #184

No rules, just right.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #191

I am AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #195

Is this Bill O'Reilly? Marr Mar 2014 #278

"It might be work for you but it's stupid although entertaining hobby for a lot of us." WilliamPitt Mar 2014 #159

Looks like you got spare time today. Bonobo Mar 2014 #169

"confrontational entertainment" WilliamPitt Mar 2014 #181

You. Unironic BS'er. nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #183

Perfect. WilliamPitt Mar 2014 #189

Dude.. I just had someone arguing with me that helmets in cars would be actually dangerous Fumesucker Mar 2014 #176

I agree. +1000 ChromeFoundry Mar 2014 #199

Uh oh ProudToBeBlueInRhody Mar 2014 #252

Suppressing everyone is not the answer. Fighting to make it more inclusive is. liberal_at_heart Mar 2014 #127

I don't disagree. Bonobo Mar 2014 #131

A question. stevil Mar 2014 #146

Ummm, I don't think so. Bonobo Mar 2014 #151

Do you work in a cemetery and mass grave? AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #153

What? Do you? nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #165

At various times in the last twenty years AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #168

If Ground Zero is a mass grave, then I guess all faiths should be equally represented. No? nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #170

You act like I have a problem with that AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #174

Dude, I asked you directly if an Islamic icon would be ok and you said "No." nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #186

And???? AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #190

LOL. It isn't ok, but you don't care. Got it. nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #193

See how easy that is AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #194

Like shootin' fish in a barrel, I think. Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2014 #197

OK stevil Mar 2014 #179

Perfect flamebait. WilliamPitt Mar 2014 #149

And you took the bait! nt Logical Mar 2014 #154

Perfect irony. Bonobo Mar 2014 #157

Announcing your purpose, yeah? WilliamPitt Mar 2014 #163

If anyone should know flamebait on DU Fumesucker Mar 2014 #182

He's in BS self-delusion mode apparently today. nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #187

Well I think it should go in the museum but I respect others who believe differently. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #175

I think there is more to this story than we know goldent Mar 2014 #198

They did this MO_Moderate Mar 2014 #245

Got a link to back that up? bunnies Mar 2014 #261

A link? MO_Moderate Mar 2014 #266

You claimed that American Atheists is suing out of "fear" and "hatred". bunnies Mar 2014 #267

They're doing it because their suggested, inclusive plaque was excluded, while this Marr Mar 2014 #280

The so-called cross gave comfort MO_Moderate Mar 2014 #281

I'm agnostic and I don't give a shit. This is not an important issue. phleshdef Mar 2014 #200

indeed. nt Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #210

Don't understand why people are mad at the OP LittleBlue Mar 2014 #213

Agreed and no, it is not high on my meter either. Bonobo Mar 2014 #216

It's a fricken piece of broken building, people! defacto7 Mar 2014 #217

The building was made out of crossed I-beams. Deep13 Mar 2014 #220

this is a rather facile response. there was lots of debris, but they chose this piece for a reason. unblock Mar 2014 #255

I always heard the finding of the cross was a miracle. Deep13 Mar 2014 #260

I do not like sockpuppets. Enthusiast Mar 2014 #226

Who is a sockpuppet here? nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #230

Sorry. I can't name names. I would have thought it was obvious. Enthusiast Mar 2014 #234

Ah, you're right. Upon closer "analysis", I got it. nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #236

As an atheist, I don't mind that the cross is there LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #227

Silly you. It is the persecution that counts. Atheists just wanted more symbols. djean111 Mar 2014 #231

Nailed it... marions ghost Mar 2014 #241

This is wrong marions ghost Mar 2014 #228

The display of a torture device @ the site of 911. Ironic, imo, elehhhhna Mar 2014 #238

More proof positive bible-god is lame. JNelson6563 Mar 2014 #239

You seem to have grown in your sensitivity to these issues. thucythucy Mar 2014 #244

I think the analogy is a bit strained, but... Bonobo Mar 2014 #251

All analogies are strained to a certain extent. thucythucy Mar 2014 #276

I liken the whole thing to people finding Jesus in their toast ProudToBeBlueInRhody Mar 2014 #253

wtf? Why in the hell JanMichael Mar 2014 #254

Let me put it this way, I don't give a flying fig what the atheists think of this cross. Beacool Mar 2014 #256

But what about their "dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, and headaches" Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #258

I'm fed up with people who complain about everything that they don't like. Beacool Mar 2014 #259

Well, aesthetically speaking. Xyzse Mar 2014 #257

How inspiring! aka-chmeee Mar 2014 #268

Is this memorial on public grounds? If so, I really don't see the argument. Marr Mar 2014 #269

Cui bono? Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #272

As a Christian OwnedByCats Mar 2014 #275

It looks like you will be going into a church, EvilAL Mar 2014 #277

Bingo marions ghost Mar 2014 #279