General Discussion

Tommy_Carcetti

(44,487 posts)

20. Because we are dealing with the here and now.

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:07 AM

Mar 2014

And the here and now is that Russia has currently sent its troops onto foreign, sovereign soil (as recognized by its own treaty), and could possibly be preparing for further military incursion onto the Ukrainian mainland, which could possibly foment a civil war in Ukraine. It is an immediate crisis which should demand international attention.

Yes, we should not forget what happened in Iraq eleven years ago, but the fact of the matter is that we now have a different administration, we have withdrawn our combat troops from that region, and it's now a matter of history. Which isn't to say we shouldn't still have conversations about it.

But it is possible to have conversations about two different things? A discussion on Iraq in no way precludes a discussion on Ukraine.

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Most of us here were against the invasion of Iraq, correct? [View all] Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 OP

Still trying to conflate apples with oranges? nt rdharma Mar 2014 #1

Still making cryptic, unspecified statements? nt Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #2

'NO' is the answer to that question. 'NO' putsch and 'NO' WMD's in Iraq. nt rdharma Mar 2014 #7

To what "putsch" are you referring? nt Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #11

The putsch in the Ukraine. Where have you been? nt rdharma Mar 2014 #13

Let me try to get you down on an actual position here. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #16

Yes, it was a putsch. Are you claiming otherwise? rdharma Mar 2014 #31

What does that have to do with your position on Crimea and Russian intervention? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #45

Who said anything about a "military" coup? A putsch headed by fascist thugs also qualifies...... rdharma Mar 2014 #54

Are you going to answer the question? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #57

The entire mess started with the "putsch"... nt rdharma Mar 2014 #62

Sigh. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #69

You got my answer...... rdharma Mar 2014 #71

Okay. So you view Russia's actions as justified. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #73

I really think that person is putting us on. I dont think anyone could actually believe those stevenleser Mar 2014 #113

Well under that thinking, I'm sure he would have supported the US invasion of Iraq. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #115

I just pointed out that very thing to a Russian expat attempting to defend Putin on FB. stevenleser Mar 2014 #120

You seem to have a unique take on this lark Mar 2014 #101

You are correct. polly7 Mar 2014 #114

Russia has had forces in Crimea since the late 18th century. polly7 Mar 2014 #123

For there to be "protection", there would have to be an actual threat. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #125

........... polly7 Mar 2014 #126

I disagree with the premise laundry_queen Mar 2014 #131

Am I mistaken, or is France not across the ocean from Quebec??? polly7 Mar 2014 #132

Well, that's good to know that you support the break up of Canada. laundry_queen Mar 2014 #133

I believe any people who feel their interests aren't represented under a gov't polly7 Mar 2014 #135

Again, I disagree. laundry_queen Mar 2014 #136

Sorry, I disagree with pretty much everything you've just said above. polly7 Mar 2014 #137

Yeah. No. nt laundry_queen Mar 2014 #138

Yeah, no, but wtf cares? Not I. nt. polly7 Mar 2014 #139

Don't forget that the Russians refuse to send their troops back to their amandabeech Mar 2014 #95

Good points. nt Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #119

Are we still droning people in other parts of the world using 9/11/War on Terror, where sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #24

Do you, Sabrina1, have the moral authority.... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #32

That's a good question. I might think I do, but then I know that people would have the right to sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #65

The invasion of Iraq was illegal, correct? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #3

Unfortunately, they remain unpunished. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #4

If your dog is taking massive dumps in other people's yards Fumesucker Mar 2014 #6

Great reply, Fumesucker! rdharma Mar 2014 #8

The relationship between a people and its elected officials is far more complex... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #9

Why's it OK if our politicians do stuff like this but we must speak up if foreign politicians do it? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #14

Because we are dealing with the here and now. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #20

In the here and now our own criminals are on the damn TV telling us how to run things still Fumesucker Mar 2014 #22

And we can and should ignore them. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #23

It makes it blantantly obvious what the ultimate rule is Fumesucker Mar 2014 #26

do you approach discussions of international law, war, and human rights geek tragedy Mar 2014 #25

Ignoring what your own dog has done makes you someone committed to principles how? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #30

who said anything about ignoring? geek tragedy Mar 2014 #33

Of course if you don't punish your dog's behavior you are doing nothing to change it Fumesucker Mar 2014 #36

So, you favor a criminal justice system that relies on harsh punishment geek tragedy Mar 2014 #39

Swatting the butt with a newspaper is "harsh"? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #46

the US suffered more than a swat on the butt from its invasion of Iraq geek tragedy Mar 2014 #53

What did the instigators of the Iraq war "suffer"? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #55

besides losing Congress in 2006 and the White House in 2008? nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #60

The 22nd Amendment has been superceded? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #96

I can swat the government on its behind for pooping in the neighbors yard... LanternWaste Mar 2014 #104

The point is that we may speak up no matter what government is doing bad things. amandabeech Mar 2014 #100

Of course you can speak up if you wish Fumesucker Mar 2014 #140

except that an absurd comparison. deplomacy IS the art of hypocrisy cali Mar 2014 #12

The end justifies the means? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #15

because there's nothing in that post that says anything of the kind cali Mar 2014 #59

"Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggy until you can find a rock." Will Rogers Fumesucker Mar 2014 #75

I think it is possible to oppose all dump taking dogs as a citizen of the planet Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #17

The nationalist part is where you ignore the fact your own dog remains unpunished Fumesucker Mar 2014 #21

can you name a nation that has punished a head of state geek tragedy Mar 2014 #29

Ultimately the only actual rule is that might makes right Fumesucker Mar 2014 #34

that is the rule that benefits the powerful. a law-based regime geek tragedy Mar 2014 #37

The law means nothing without enforcement.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #44

let's use your punish the dog analogy--the dog here is Putin. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #49

No, we should whack *our* dog's nose, that would make it appear we were serious about this behavior Fumesucker Mar 2014 #58

one need not be wholly consistent to be serious nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #61

One can be seriously amusing without even knowing it too n/t Fumesucker Mar 2014 #68

Nope, your claim is nationalism in the negative, mine is that of a citizen of earth who Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #85

I can see it from both sides and my citizen of earth side is disgusted and opposed too Fumesucker Mar 2014 #86

Why not just say that then? Because using your other string of logic, you have no Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #91

Because I'm imperfect and don't always express myself in the fashion others would have of me Fumesucker Mar 2014 #93

Not just unpunished.but rewarded zeemike Mar 2014 #97

/thread LittleBlue Mar 2014 #124

Same thing that happened to the invader of Georgia. joshcryer Mar 2014 #141

After the west heaped blame on Russia for the conflict, it ignores new evidence of Georgia's crimes polly7 Mar 2014 #142

Georgia, like Ukraine, is in the Eurasia roadmap. joshcryer Mar 2014 #145

I can honestly say yes to that. The day it happened I sat watching the TV with my family. While they jwirr Mar 2014 #5

I remember thinking at the time Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #48

Mine was a policy issue. I thought we should fight terrorism by using the law enforcement agencies. jwirr Mar 2014 #56

I don't understand the argument about lacking moral authority to criticize Russia over Ukraine Proud Liberal Dem Mar 2014 #10

No, I was more concerned that it was a moronic, destructive thing to do. bemildred Mar 2014 #18

Heh. Solly Mack Mar 2014 #38

I consider people more important than "sovereign territory" bhikkhu Mar 2014 #19

There were actually refererndums that were already scheduled as to full Crimean autonomy. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #27

"Referendums that were sanctioned by the Ukrainian government" effectively went out the window...... rdharma Mar 2014 #43

I don't understand your point at all. President Obama, VP Biden, Sec of State Kerry Bandit Mar 2014 #66

To their credit, they indeed have condemned it. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #72

So your argument is with SOME people here at DU and not the USA? Bandit Mar 2014 #77

Other than the fact dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #28

So, France, Germany, China, and Russia all should have STFU when geek tragedy Mar 2014 #35

Practically all European nations also lack moral authority then treestar Mar 2014 #51

I don't disagree with you but the subject of the OP is the US. dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #83

The subject is the invasion of Iraq. UK had a bit to do with that. Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #90

is it incumbent upon every nation to remain silent regarding the aggression of any other country? LanternWaste Mar 2014 #108

Get thee hence to the greatest page. riqster Mar 2014 #40

I await the reports of the use of white phosphorus in the Ukraine. sibelian Mar 2014 #41

It might be as bad as what happened in Iraq. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #52

Woot, there it is! +1000. nt. polly7 Mar 2014 #105

So you were for Iraq? joshcryer Mar 2014 #144

I F'ing sure as hell was. Phlem Mar 2014 #42

Yes, not buying that we cannot condemn Russia's invasion treestar Mar 2014 #47

Sophistry reddread Mar 2014 #50

Whose sophistry? nt Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #89

This is stupid. Crimea wants to be part of Russia - let it be part of Russia. reformist2 Mar 2014 #63

As I mentioned before..... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #70

Multiple reasons... HereSince1628 Mar 2014 #82

There was already an election scheduled for who would govern Ukraine. Why was that abandoned? JVS Mar 2014 #143

R#8 for, solid points, articulately made. n/t UTUSN Mar 2014 #64

I agree with you, and would go further.., Waiting For Everyman Mar 2014 #67

"[H]e oversaw the withdraw of combat troops from Iraq." OnyxCollie Mar 2014 #74

Obama simply followed the George Fucking Bush timetable for getting out of Iraq Lasher Mar 2014 #147

Nope, it doesn't work that way. And "do as we say, not as we do", most people don't find that quinnox Mar 2014 #76

Russia had a military base at the very tip of Crimea. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #79

Let's say we agreed it is technically illegal, that still doesn't mean much quinnox Mar 2014 #81

Your point one is in need of context. 'Mostly Russian' because after WW2 Crimea's Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #87

You obviously have a greater handle on the history there than I do quinnox Mar 2014 #94

I remember crying go west young man Mar 2014 #78

I just listened to your song--twice. classof56 Mar 2014 #98

What a beautiful song! polly7 Mar 2014 #102

Thanks you guys. go west young man Mar 2014 #117

You've got a real gift to put what so many of us were feeling and thinking polly7 Mar 2014 #121

Cheers... go west young man Mar 2014 #130

One aspect of the Iraq insanity that is often overlooked is this: randome Mar 2014 #80

Zorra Iraq site:democraticunderground.com (about 420,000 results in 0.48 seconds) nt Zorra Mar 2014 #84

Yes. Igel Mar 2014 #88

You're right. It's one thing if Kerry condemns them and another if Rumsfeld does it.... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2014 #92

So you are claiming that since Obama is ONLY mass slaughtering civilians with drones... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #99

+1, fully agree! quinnox Mar 2014 #107

I do not know what the angles are on some of these posts. proudretiredvet Mar 2014 #103

I have a question, if our only warm water seaport was in Crimea what would we do? I don't think doc03 Mar 2014 #106

Ahem. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #116

Sochi can accommodate two cruise ships, they need a warm water port for their navy doc03 Mar 2014 #146

We, our, or us? Just who are you talking about? fleabiscuit Mar 2014 #109

Iraq? That's just across the border from Texas, right? RufusTFirefly Mar 2014 #110

Mr. Carcetti, I didn't support the Iraq War. saidsimplesimon Mar 2014 #111

The problem is, people are conflating intervention and military intervention. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #118

The **Moral Authority** of the United States was greatly diminished by illegal invasion & torture. Martin Eden Mar 2014 #112

over 100 years ago. a proud tradition. reddread Mar 2014 #122

Sorry no. Besides lives, $3trllion, Bush also spent our moral authority on point Mar 2014 #127

Well, the only other real choice is to remain silent on the situation. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #128

Us as a country are a laugh and counter productive. Us as world citizens is a different matter on point Mar 2014 #148

I live in the US, not Russia. Damansarajaya Mar 2014 #129

Whatever (questionable) moral authority we ever had drowned in the Gulf of Tonkin. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #134