General Discussion

Beartracks

(14,617 posts)

311. OK, I must admit I don't know where or how it is being displayed.

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:13 PM

Mar 2014

Up until now, I thought the lawsuit was to PREVENT its installation -- I didn't realize it was already installed.

I'm finding lots of pictures of where it was sitting prior to being lowered into the underground museum, but what's the context IN the museum? You indicate it's outside the entrance, but it's underground from what I've read. Is it still some kind of centerpiece down there?

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Atheists� misguided fight over the 9/11 memorial [View all] Nye Bevan Mar 2014 OP

The holy rollers should keep it in their pants. blkmusclmachine Mar 2014 #1

Agreed. I'm not religious but I know a lot of Americans are Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #2

Yes, it's quite a leap from "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #3

+1 nt SunsetDreams Mar 2014 #8

+2 davidpdx Mar 2014 #91

+3 Kilgore Mar 2014 #97

What is more historical about that piece of scrap metal than any other scrap from the site? n/t Gore1FL Mar 2014 #202

Historically significant item? phil89 Mar 2014 #276

Read the article. joeglow3 Mar 2014 #278

I remember the days after 9/11, the memorials, the worship services Fumesucker Mar 2014 #7

That certainly wasn't what I was focused on-making 9/11 all about me Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #11

Like I said, it took a couple of days before I really noticed that no one had mentioned me Fumesucker Mar 2014 #17

You know what they say. "there are no atheists in suicide vests" Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #20

Don't you just love the in your face version of Christianity and how they Jamastiene Mar 2014 #131

I'll never forget Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson on 9/13. Mariana Mar 2014 #141

Yup. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #147

+10 stopbush Mar 2014 #168

Nor were Pagans mentioned, as if we are something to be swept under the carpet. Hestia Mar 2014 #254

i feel you dawg. dionysus Mar 2014 #85

And there is plenty of religious symbolism in DC The Straight Story Mar 2014 #12

When Christianity turns into a myth, you will have a point. Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #34

You mean like talking donkeys, talking snakes, and talking bushes? Major Nikon Mar 2014 #101

Exactly. Worse, most Xians assume that the Bible is historically accurate. It isn't. stopbush Mar 2014 #169

Except 'Gone With The Wind' was an original story Major Nikon Mar 2014 #173

I believe the more accurate term would be "acculturation" rather than"plagiarized". LanternWaste Mar 2014 #307

I believe the more accurate term is plagiarized Major Nikon Mar 2014 #310

LOL! Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #227

Oh, many people don't think that Christianity is a myth. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #248

How is Gabriel any different from Zeus, Apollo, Hermes, et al? They too were considered divine and Hestia Mar 2014 #255

I didn't make up the deity rape story ... it's in that book that Xtians like to quote. Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #257

You haven't seen that "attitude" from me.... blueamy66 Mar 2014 #258

I am familiar with many cultures/countries/etc. and have friends of many beliefs Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #260

Exactly! n/t marew Mar 2014 #302

What do you mean, "turns into"? mr blur Mar 2014 #289

Moses on courts is about early law treestar Mar 2014 #209

"Jackass atheist zealot?" Hissyspit Mar 2014 #87

Clearly, the jackasses amuse bouche Mar 2014 #103

There's xtian symbolism. at a public memorial. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #114

It's the remains of a steel beam cross-bar. If others wish to make more of it, so what? hlthe2b Mar 2014 #127

That piece of Iron was cut to look like a cross. RC Mar 2014 #185

+1 Go Vols Mar 2014 #192

Who cares? hlthe2b Mar 2014 #204

Quite a lot of us care. RC Mar 2014 #220

If it is not a cross, as you seemingly agree then your point is rather moot. hlthe2b Mar 2014 #223

Then go throw your own symbol there. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #249

I don't have one, but if I did, it would be something more inclusive, to include everyone who died. RC Mar 2014 #252

I am Catholic. I don't feel persecuted, except at DU. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #253

Well, if it's just a chunk of steel, why not display it upside down from its Nay Mar 2014 #219

Only jackass Christian zealots are allowed to have a voice in this country. Got it. Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #228

"If Christ had lived in the modern age Christians would all be wearing little electric chairs" Fumesucker Mar 2014 #4

Or 9mm handgun. Jesus would have been gunned down by Judas Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #6

Nah, it would have gone more like this... Fumesucker Mar 2014 #10

I hadn't heard that one. GoneOffShore Mar 2014 #140

If they want to keep that cross there, fine. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #5

Well, it's not about THEM, it's about ME Scootaloo Mar 2014 #89

I saw that movie davidpdx Mar 2014 #92

Great post. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #134

I don't think it's misguided. Bonobo Mar 2014 #9

Then there are a lot of atheists just as intolerant and unfeeling as they Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #13

Feeling alienated when you see a religious icon that excludes you is not itself petty or intolerant. Bonobo Mar 2014 #15

True. I was not trying to minimize your feelings Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #22

Thanks! Bonobo Mar 2014 #26

Thank you for doing this. kwassa Mar 2014 #225

I, as a person raised in the Catholic Church, find the cross unsettling Maedhros Mar 2014 #83

And I, as a Jew (non-practicing) find it so as well. Bonobo Mar 2014 #84

I have a certain revulsion at the idea of making an icon from an instrument of torture.[n/t] Maedhros Mar 2014 #90

I never understood why others religious symbols and beliefs penultimate Mar 2014 #158

I find it alienating LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #164

What is the artifact honoring non-religious victims? n/t Beartracks Mar 2014 #207

a plaque (nt) LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #221

It's not just a memorial -- they're taking it as some kind of miracle starroute Mar 2014 #14

It gave comfort to a lotnof us here. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #18

Why? Hissyspit Mar 2014 #77

Those were dark days for me personally and it gave me a sense of hope that we would get hrmjustin Mar 2014 #78

A real miracle isn't it? RC Mar 2014 #194

For approximately the same reason that imaginary red and blue lines on a map give comfort to people LanternWaste Mar 2014 #308

And where was their asshole of a god on 9-11? What, "he" had something better to do than prevent Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #229

It's called free will. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #250

Yeah, that old saw. Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #256

If you feel that way, don't pray. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #288

Much as I use to think in regards to my parents LanternWaste Mar 2014 #309

+1000 Tom Ripley Mar 2014 #301

It is a part of the story and I say leave it in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #16

Then let us put up a plaque LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #24

I am all for it. No opposition from me. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #25

I know LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #29

Too bad there weren't any churches around, eh? Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2014 #94

There are plenty but it belongs in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #117

I think you're right. Mariana Mar 2014 #149

I think the atheists have a point quinnox Mar 2014 #19

It is debris not a religious item. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #21

Forgive me, but that is just plain disingenuous. Bonobo Mar 2014 #28

We can argue what others think of the cross all day long but the metal itself is debris and... hrmjustin Mar 2014 #31

Yes, I appreciate that it is a sign of redemption for you and other Christians. Bonobo Mar 2014 #39

The cross is a part of the 9 11 story and should be a part of the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #42

A distinction without a difference. Bonobo Mar 2014 #46

Yes it was given attention because it was a cross but also because it hrmjustin Mar 2014 #50

So you dont mind Eko Mar 2014 #67

Yes I do and at this point I doubt that would be allowed. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #70

Which means absolutely nothing. phil89 Mar 2014 #279

Your opinion and and we will have to disagree. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #281

It is no more part of the history than any other scrap hauled away from the site. n/t Gore1FL Mar 2014 #203

Well people who were down there disagree. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #211

They would disagree because they "found" religious meaning in it Gore1FL Mar 2014 #226

For Christians it is the sign of redemption. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #230

It's JUST debris Hissyspit Mar 2014 #79

I never said it was just debris. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #80

Correct, I misread what you wrote. Hissyspit Mar 2014 #81

As a technical matter it is just debris. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #82

From the POV pipi_k Mar 2014 #125

It was debris until it was purposely altered Major Nikon Mar 2014 #104

Except that it wasn't purposely altered. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #111

Did you read the OP? Major Nikon Mar 2014 #112

Yes. But I also have my own memories which do not match the twist in the article. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #162

Someone found an image of Jesus on a dog's ass also Major Nikon Mar 2014 #170

You are being disingenuous Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #199

You are being just flat wrong Major Nikon Mar 2014 #210

That bill has not passed. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #214

You are correct on the building fund. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #224

I'm not convinced it's a legal use of the money Major Nikon Mar 2014 #232

It is really not even a close legal call. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #233

It is exactly what happened Major Nikon Mar 2014 #236

Tell that to the guy who found it. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #239

It gave people "hope and comfort" because of its Christian symbology Major Nikon Mar 2014 #240

And if you were Jewish - Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #241

It certainly was altered. From the article: phil89 Mar 2014 #282

As I've said before, the article is twisting the facts. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #287

Well from polls I seen people want it in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #118

You can say the same thing about Proposition 8 Major Nikon Mar 2014 #124

Putting a cross in a museum is nit the same as prop 8 but I understand your point. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #126

Both are civil rights issues Major Nikon Mar 2014 #128

No one is being oppressed by these beams being put in a museum. Offended yes but not oppressed. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #129

It's state promotion of Christianity Major Nikon Mar 2014 #133

I imagine it would not get the same support. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #135

I'm sure it does, but not one tax dollars support Major Nikon Mar 2014 #137

I don't know about who is funding it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #139

The funds come from public and private sources Major Nikon Mar 2014 #143

Well I think it won't cost much to deal with this thing. They can designate privste funds for it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #144

That's not the issue Major Nikon Mar 2014 #150

Again I understand how you feel but in this case I think these beams belong in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #151

You might have at least a shot at an argument IF COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #263

Because it became part of the story and that is what museums are about. Telling the story. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #265

What "story"? The story that some Xian folk cut the COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #267

Yea that is about the story. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #268

I agree. And that's why it's not constitutional to COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #269

I also see it as a separation of church and state issue marions ghost Mar 2014 #290

I'm for leaving the cross at the WTC as a reminder that the buildings were brought down stopbush Mar 2014 #174

Now that is an interesting take on it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #176

Indeed. Likewise, it's also religious fanatics who are insisting that the WTC cross stopbush Mar 2014 #191

Am I a religious fanatic because I think it belongs in the museum? hrmjustin Mar 2014 #193

Not necessarily. Depends on your reasons for putting it in the museum. stopbush Mar 2014 #195

Lol well I asked. I appreciate your point of view and honesty. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #196

Actually the way I take it, JoeyT Mar 2014 #237

I take from it perseverance. When I saw it I saw that we will prevail. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #238

As a Christian you saw it as a symbol of "we will prevail" marions ghost Mar 2014 #306

"Debris" gave you comfort? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #30

Yes it did. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #32

What was so special about this piece of "debris" that made it different than all the rest? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #36

It was a symbol of perseverance for some. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #38

LOL, yes. BECAUSE it is a cross. Not because it is debris. Bonobo Mar 2014 #43

This message was self-deleted by its author hrmjustin Mar 2014 #45

A symbol? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #44

Indeed it does. also the sign of faith of many NYers. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #47

And of course the rest of those New Yorkers don't count anyway.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #52

Well atheists count in my book. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #54

As long as they are "good" atheists.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #58

I was aware of the offer. I live here in NY and I find your first remark insulting. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #64

I find the lie in the OP insulting Fumesucker Mar 2014 #93

Oh you were referring to the op not me? hrmjustin Mar 2014 #123

Then you should have no objection to this piece being replaced with a less offensive piece, right? Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #55

Yes I object. This piece of debris is a part of the story. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #60

Every piece is part of the story. This is just a particularly offensive piece. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #66

Well we will just have to disagree. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #68

Thank you. If it is debris, it is debris. Can't have it both ways. Bonobo Mar 2014 #40

The Arizona is debris. There have been quite a few religious services on this government property. rug Mar 2014 #197

Arizona is hallowed ground. No more violative of the 1st COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #264

So is the WTC, if you insist on the word "hallowed". rug Mar 2014 #266

Yep and there have been dozens if not more COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #270

It's also an artifact of a human reaction to the eveent. rug Mar 2014 #271

Interesting idea but as a legal argument COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #272

That's the argument of the District Court. rug Mar 2014 #273

Line of questions doesn't indicate COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #299

What is that supposed to mean? COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #300

"...and had the 17-foot-tall, 4,000-pound cross cut from it" Silent3 Mar 2014 #33

That maybe true but it is debris. It is also a part of the story here in NY and should be a part hrmjustin Mar 2014 #37

What if it had been cut into the shape of a Golden Calf? nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #48

Then they have talent. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #51

I was reading down through and... that was freaking funny. nt 1awake Mar 2014 #107

Thank you. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #119

It was a cross fashioned from debris. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #57

It was cut. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #61

Incredible (accidental?) symmetry! Bonobo Mar 2014 #69

Look you don't have to like it but the courts appear to be on the side of allowing it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #72

Do me a favor and answer this question: Bonobo Mar 2014 #74

I personally would think it fine. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #75

Thank you for your answer. nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #76

Did you know Silverman and AA opposed a prominent Star of David at a Holocaust museum? rug Mar 2014 #200

Again, they were asking for equal time LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #242

I don't think you'll win the argument that atheists as a group suffered equally in rhe Holocaust. rug Mar 2014 #247

Was not talking about atheists LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #259

So if someone had turned 9/11 debris into a giant dildo, you'd still be saying... Silent3 Mar 2014 #216

If they did that it definitely shoold be in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #217

Could someone tell me what is so wrong with including a plaque LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #23

Now that puts things in a different light indeed.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #27

Yeah but WE ARE THE BAD GUYS HERE LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #35

In fact, it doesn't even put things in a "different" light skepticscott Mar 2014 #96

Nope, it's only the Christians who matter. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #136

So. All 3000 who died were Christians? No. Just who are we honoring here? Only the Christians who Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #41

Because everyone else is going to Hell of course Fumesucker Mar 2014 #49

Thank you Mother Mary Magellan who taught me that lesson oh so many decades ago. Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #56

I think it is really sad how some Christians are incapable of seeing the world through anything liberal_at_heart Mar 2014 #53

If someone were to suggest a Star of David be put up to commemorate the 9/11 victims... Bonobo Mar 2014 #59

It's completely different Fumesucker Mar 2014 #65

+9,001 (nt) LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #86

More that christians and atheists were killed that day.. jews, buddhists, hindis, muslims, agnostics Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #62

Wiccans, Sikhs, there might even have been a Shinto or a Jain or two Fumesucker Mar 2014 #71

I support cutting it up, selling the scrap, and using the money for a true memorial. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #63

+1 Hissyspit Mar 2014 #73

Take something that is meaningful to people, and scrap it for what? tritsofme Mar 2014 #132

Because the damn thing is ugly, for starters. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #142

lol, right...how absurd to have a symbol of the tragedy at a museum commemorating it. tritsofme Mar 2014 #190

The desire to ignore that AA simply wants to put a plaque there LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #198

I started replying to the person who proposed sending it to the scrapper, literally erasing it. tritsofme Mar 2014 #201

It is a symbol of hate -- the same type of bronze age delusional that inspired the hijackers.... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #244

Never, never... liberalmuse Mar 2014 #88

What a shitty article upholding Christian privilege... MellowDem Mar 2014 #95

Considering the WTC was a shrine to Mammon, this is ironic. WinkyDink Mar 2014 #98

No, it is fitting. Ikonoklast Mar 2014 #160

Point WELL taken. WinkyDink Mar 2014 #235

So some world trade worker comes up with his version of Jesus-burnt-toast or water-stain-Jesus.... Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2014 #99

It wasn't even that good Major Nikon Mar 2014 #105

There is a Jesus stencil for toast. I have one Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #153

Does it look something like this... Major Nikon Mar 2014 #154

read the article people edhopper Mar 2014 #100

Nope they want to shove it down our throats, because it gave them comfort. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #145

"The beam was pulled from the wreakage and CUT INTO A CROSS!" amuse bouche Mar 2014 #303

Religion brought us 911, so I guess a cross is historuically correct. BlueStreak Mar 2014 #102

If it were not in the shape of a cross.. pangaia Mar 2014 #106

Let's not be ingenuous. This artifact COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #108

Exactly amuse bouche Mar 2014 #109

Agreed. The discovered girder crosspiece was snipped to the proportions of the Xtian cross. John1956PA Mar 2014 #152

Yup RedCappedBandit Mar 2014 #205

too bad people just can't get along Niceguy1 Mar 2014 #110

There's nothing misguided about that at all. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #113

Mary Elizabeth Williams is one of Salon's stable of anti-atheism/pro-Catholicism writers MNBrewer Mar 2014 #115

Does it stand to signify the Crusade Bush undertook in response to this attack Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #116

In reality, yes. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #146

If it is on public property, it is in fact illegal. alarimer Mar 2014 #120

I favor its removal. Chan790 Mar 2014 #121

The "cross" is not "part of what happened". It was manufactured. After the fact. NYC Liberal Mar 2014 #122

Agreed. I'd give the sculpture to a church in the area affected by 9/11. DinahMoeHum Mar 2014 #165

Just so I'm clear on this, God killed 3000+ people to create an ugly sculpture? Orrex Mar 2014 #177

I still wish the atheists could win more often. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #130

Best post. Ever. GreenEyedLefty Mar 2014 #180

Both the holy rollers and the faithiests need to chill out seveneyes Mar 2014 #138

I think you are miss using the word faithiest LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #155

Well I did mean it as Faith + Atheist seveneyes Mar 2014 #183

Faitheist usually means an Atheist who promotes religion LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #184

Atheism has no dogma phil89 Mar 2014 #283

Salon's on a roll with these irrational polemics lately. DirkGently Mar 2014 #148

Excellent! John1956PA Mar 2014 #213

I'm a fervent atheist, but I believe this is the wrong fight. dballance Mar 2014 #156

So you support AA in LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #157

I would certainly support other religions/non-religions honoring their dead. However, dballance Mar 2014 #163

I get and respect that LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #166

My town held a big Jesus festival in the park after 9/11... Walk away Mar 2014 #159

I have never in my life heard a Christian claim that "Christians are so great". Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #171

It happened in Rutherford NJ and it's one of the reasons... Walk away Mar 2014 #186

Yeah... How dare those lousy atheists want to propagate reason Ohio Joe Mar 2014 #161

Because it's always misguided to fight for a Constitutional principle. stopbush Mar 2014 #167

What are these atheists so worried about? Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #172

When you can present a Constitutional argument, we'll talk. stopbush Mar 2014 #175

When Congress makes a law respecting an establishment of religion, we'll talk (nt) Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #179

Displaying Christian symbols on public property COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #261

The ACLU often defends white supremacists Major Nikon Mar 2014 #178

They want a more inclusive monument Fumesucker Mar 2014 #181

It helps make the irrational beliefs behind religion seem ok when they're really not. phil89 Mar 2014 #284

As a long-time atheist, I'm of two minds regarding this. MineralMan Mar 2014 #182

+1 as a Christian I agree TNLib Mar 2014 #187

Thanks! MineralMan Mar 2014 #188

Excellent post. 2banon Mar 2014 #246

I vehemently disagree amuse bouche Mar 2014 #189

Nah, it's not a misguided fight. nt RedCappedBandit Mar 2014 #206

If the cross was of significant meaning for Christian rescuers at the site.... Beartracks Mar 2014 #208

I'm not sure the cross is meant to "honor" anyone goldent Mar 2014 #215

A two-ton memorial is not "tiny" starroute Mar 2014 #231

Every one of the rescue workers were Christians? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #222

Of course not. But obviously the one(s) who fashioned the cross were. n/t Beartracks Mar 2014 #274

The cross doesn't "do" anything. It's an inert piece COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #262

Simply including the cross at a public museum wouldn't be promoting a religion... Beartracks Mar 2014 #275

First of all, displaying it in a museum - public or private COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #298

OK, I must admit I don't know where or how it is being displayed. Beartracks Mar 2014 #311

This message was self-deleted by its author goldent Mar 2014 #212

As an atheist I have no problem with the cross. nt hack89 Mar 2014 #218

As a non-atheist, I do marions ghost Mar 2014 #292

I just think we have bigger issues in America to deal with hack89 Mar 2014 #293

If we didn't have the religious fundies marions ghost Mar 2014 #294

This has nothing to do with religious fundies hack89 Mar 2014 #295

It has everything to do with Fundyism marions ghost Mar 2014 #296

ok nt hack89 Mar 2014 #297

Considering the location, a dollar sign-shaped steel beam would be more appropriate Tom Ripley Mar 2014 #234

good point marions ghost Mar 2014 #291

I think I vaguely understand cvoogt Mar 2014 #243

seems like this post should be in the religious forum 2banon Mar 2014 #245

FFS DustyJoe Mar 2014 #251

I'm sick of being surrounded by people's superstitious symbolism.... mike_c Mar 2014 #277

Hear, Here! 2banon Mar 2014 #280

This. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #285

Yep. amuse bouche Mar 2014 #304

Exactly. DavidDvorkin Mar 2014 #305

I Agree 100% Corey_Baker08 Mar 2014 #286

The same people out there who are up in arms about the opposition to this religious symbol edhopper Mar 2014 #312