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brush

(53,331 posts)
61. So why does he want to come back to the US?
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 05:14 PM
Mar 2014

I'm not a Snowdenista but I do think he did a good thing in exposing the NSA's domestic spying. Where I think he and Greenwald went wrong is in revealing intricacies of our international covert operations.

On everyone of these Snowden threads the Eddie fan's don't seem to want to accept that this is a two-part issue. On the domestic side, imo, he is a legitimate whistle blower.

As far as the international revelations, I say it is not the business of a somewhat naive 29-year-old to make the decision to give away details of his own country's international covert operations. It's that simple. It was not his decision to make, especially when just a few years earlier when Bush was in office he was vehemently against this sort of thing.

When Obama came in, the right-leaning Snowden had a dramatic change of heart that has made him a hero to some progressives. If you want to know more just read the transcripts below from an online correspondence Snowden (TheTrueHOOHA) had with a User19 in 2009:


"This is the background of Snowden and his position on this very issue...

Another topic made him even angrier. The Snowden of 2009 inveighed against government officials who leaked classified information to newspapers – the worst crime conceivable, in Snowden’s apoplectic view. In January of that year the New York Times published a report on a secret Israeli plan to attack Iran. It said that President Bush had ‘deflected’ a request from Israel for specialised bunker-busting bombs to carry out the risky mission. Instead Bush had told the Israelis he had authorised ‘new covert action’ to sabotage Iran’s suspected nuclear-weapons programme.

The Times said its story was based on 15 months’ worth of interviews with current and former US officials, European and Israeli officials, other experts and international nuclear inspectors.

TheTrueHOOHA’s response, published by Ars Technica, is worth quoting in full:


<TheTrueHOOHA> HOLYSHIT http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/ washington/11iran.html?_r=1&hp
<TheTrueHOOHA> WTF NYTIMES
<TheTrueHOOHA> Are they TRYING to start a war?
<TheTrueHOOHA> Jesus christ
<TheTrueHOOHA> they’re like wikileaks
<User19> they’re just reporting, dude.
<TheTrueHOOHA> They’re reporting classified shit
<User19> Shrugs
<TheTrueHOOHA> about an unpopular country surrounded by enemies already engaged in a war
<TheTrueHOOHA> and about our interactions with said country regarding planning sovereignty violations of another country
<TheTrueHOOHA> you don’t put that shit in the NEWSPAPER
<User19> Meh
<TheTrueHOOHA> moreover, who the fuck are the anonymous sources telling them this?
<TheTrueHOOHA> those people should be shot in the balls.
<TheTrueHOOHA> ‘But the tense exchanges also prompted the White House to step up intelligence-sharing with Israel and brief Israeli officials on new American efforts to subtly sabotage Iran’s nuclear infrastructure, a major covert program that Mr. Bush is about to hand off to President-elect Barack Obama.’
<TheTrueHOOHA> HELLO? HOW COVERT IS IT NOW? THANK YOU
<User19> Meh
<TheTrueHOOHA> I wonder how many hundreds of millions of dollars they just completely blew.
<User19> You’re over-reacting. It’s fine.
<TheTrueHOOHA> It’s not an overreaction. They have a HISTORY of this shit
<User19> with flowers and cake.
<TheTrueHOOHA> these are the same people who blew the whole ‘we could listen to osama’s cell phone’ thing the same people who screwed us on wiretapping over and over and over again. Thank God they’re going out of business.
<User19> the NYT?
<TheTrueHOOHA> Hopefully they’ll finally go bankrupt this year. yeah.

A few minutes later the chat continues:


<User19> It’s nice they report on stuff.
<TheTrueHOOHA> I enjoy it when it’s ethical reporting.
<TheTrueHOOHA> political corruption, sure
<TheTrueHOOHA> scandal, yes
<User19> is it unethical to report on the government’s intrigue?
<TheTrueHOOHA> VIOLATING NATIONAL SECURITY? no
<User19> meh.
<User19> national security.
<TheTrueHOOHA> Um,YEEEEEEEEEEEES.
<TheTrueHOOHA> that shit is classified for a reason
<TheTrueHOOHA> it’s not because ‘oh we hope our citizens don’t find out’
<TheTrueHOOHA> it’s because ‘this shit won’t work if iran knows what we’re doing.’
<User19> Shrugs
<TheTrueHOOHA> ‘None would speak on the record because of the great secrecy surrounding the intelligence developed on Iran.’
<TheTrueHOOHA> direct. quote.
<TheTrueHOOHA> THEN WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO REPORTERS?!
<TheTrueHOOHA> ‘Those covert operations, and the question of whether Israel will settle for something less than a conventional attack on Iran, pose immediate and wrenching decisions for Mr. Obama.’
<TheTrueHOOHA> THEY’RE NOT COVERT ANYMORE
<TheTrueHOOHA> Oh you’ve got to be fucking kidding me. Now the NYTimes is going to determine our foreign policy?
<TheTrueHOOHA> And Obama?
<TheTrueHOOHA> Obama just appointed a fucking POLITICIAN to run the CIA!
<User11> yes unlike every other director of CIA ever
<User11> oh wait, no
<TheTrueHOOHA> I am so angry right now. This is completely unbelievable.

The ‘fucking politician’ was Leon Panetta, appointed by Obama in 2009 despite his evident lack of intelligence background. The appointment was supposed to draw a line under the intelligence scandals of the Bush years – the renditions, the secret CIA prisons and the illegal wiretapping.


This should be required reading for you Snowden supporters.

Snowden evidently knew of WikiLeaks, a niche transparency website whose story would later intersect with his own. But he didn’t like it. At this point, Snowden’s antipathy towards the New York Times was based on his opinion that ‘they are worse than Wikileaks’. Later, however, he would go on to accuse the paper of not publishing quickly enough and of sitting on unambiguous evidence of White House illegality. These are somewhat contradictory views.

Certainly Snowden’s anti-leaking invective seems stunningly at odds with his own later behaviour. But there is a difference between what the Times arguably did – reveal details of sensitive covert operations – and what Snowden would do in 2013. Snowden nowadays explains: ‘Most of the secrets the CIA has are about people, not machines and systems, so I didn’t feel comfortable with disclosures that I thought could endanger anyone.’"


In 2009 he thought covert operations leakers "should be shot in the balls" (his words). Quite a change in philosophies he had from 2009 to 2013 don't you think?

I know I myself haven't went from being a progressive to a teabagger since 2009, yet Snowden has somehow managed just the reverse of this in his thinking from that of authoritarian right winger to a progressive beacon of human rights.

IMO that just doesn't happen. Obama happened.

It's working great in Syria frazzled Mar 2014 #1
LOL! ProSense Mar 2014 #5
Snowden Says The Government Still Has No Idea What He Gave To Reporters ProSense Mar 2014 #2
He's a border line Tea Bagger Drale Mar 2014 #3
And he himself has no idea what he leaked. brush Mar 2014 #15
snowden is god's gift to greenwald. Cha Mar 2014 #35
" I don't know how to love him" sheshe2 Mar 2014 #42
.. Cha Mar 2014 #47
+1 uponit7771 Mar 2014 #58
Keep on tap-dancing, little buddy. By the way, has anyone seen TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #4
He's now the front runner for the O'Reilly Prize, awarded annualy to the most self-important ... 11 Bravo Mar 2014 #6
Well, he's certainly provided for a lot of amusement at the way the regime playing CYA about the NSA Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #7
Show me the money.....nt kelliekat44 Mar 2014 #8
You know what makes Snowden a better person than everone else? Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #9
Don't forget.. "The US wants to assassinate me." Cha Mar 2014 #36
With the possible exception of Skull & Bones. KamaAina Mar 2014 #10
He can't open his mouth without exaggerating treestar Mar 2014 #11
If you think his complex is bad now, just wait until Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #14
Or, worse, Benedict Cumberbatch! randome Mar 2014 #23
I'm guessing this is directly relevant to the topic of the NSA and its over-reach LanternWaste Mar 2014 #12
What, you don't like Snowden's quote? ProSense Mar 2014 #13
I didn't read Snowden's quote... LanternWaste Mar 2014 #17
It was hilarious. ProSense Mar 2014 #18
However, it was not about policy I would imagine... LanternWaste Mar 2014 #21
Who cares? I'm laughing at Snowden. ProSense Mar 2014 #22
I'm sure you and he allow it all the credibility it warrants... LanternWaste Mar 2014 #26
LOL! ProSense Mar 2014 #27
Plenty of threads about phone metadata. This one is about Snowden. randome Mar 2014 #20
I keep forgetting the person is more important than than the policy to far too many of the dogmatic LanternWaste Mar 2014 #25
If that isn't true, why do people get so upset when anyone criticizes Snowden? ProSense Mar 2014 #29
Snowden Made it about Snowden.. Always popping Everywhere telling Everyone What Cha Mar 2014 #39
Oooh, ProSense Mar 2014 #16
Snowden's leaks solved the crisis in Syria.... Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #19
Snowden, hero! n/t ProSense Mar 2014 #31
Snowden's LEAKS have been Crucial to Cha Mar 2014 #55
Maybe Snowden should invest in a containment vessel, Whisp Mar 2014 #24
I thought you were going to refer to Cha Mar 2014 #56
why can't he stfu so the focus can be the NSA? ecstatic Mar 2014 #28
He's still trying for clemency and needs to tell everyone how important he is. ProSense Mar 2014 #32
Kids these days BeyondGeography Mar 2014 #30
Saving the world, one ego at a time. ProSense Mar 2014 #33
Snowden Leaks From Russia.. Cha Mar 2014 #34
LOL! ProSense Mar 2014 #37
Dude's Putin's Tool Now. Cha Mar 2014 #40
18 U.S. Code § 798 - Disclosure of classified information struggle4progress Mar 2014 #38
Guess Snowden feels all cozy and safe in Russia.. Cha Mar 2014 #41
He's probably desperate to get the hell out of there. n/t ProSense Mar 2014 #43
Yeah, but, where to go next.. hmmmm? nt Cha Mar 2014 #48
It has in terms of more secure communications. Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #44
Really, he apparently ProSense Mar 2014 #50
oh my, what an inflated ego that man has. sheshe2 Mar 2014 #45
Obsessive desire to be seen as a hero, i.e.: Narcissism and/or Megalomania nt stevenleser Mar 2014 #46
And your comment merely reveals that you didn't Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #49
It doesn't suggest any such thing. I already believed this from prior statements of his. This just stevenleser Mar 2014 #51
Glenn Greenwald, honored with an Izzy Award, winner of the Polk Award, Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #53
LOL....nt Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #54
Greenwald is doing great — new media venture, awards and all . . ., brush Mar 2014 #57
+1, this is the biggest tell tale of GG assholeness level... Snowden in the lurch GG raking it in uponit7771 Mar 2014 #59
Winner of the Sam Adams award, Germany's Whistleblower Prize, elected to serve as Rector at the Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #60
So why does he want to come back to the US? brush Mar 2014 #61
Kick! n/t ProSense Mar 2014 #52
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