General Discussion

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)

124. yeah "stole" is always the strawman

Wed Mar 12, 2014, 02:53 AM

Mar 2014

the Nader defenders love to erect.

I never said that, or implied it.

The fact of the matter is that I did NOT vote for Clinton in 1992.

But unlike the Nader-deniers, I did it with my eyes open. I knew that I might be helping Bush to get re-elected.

In October of 2000, I wrote a letter to the editor, that helped Gore to win Iowa. I said "quite frankly, I am scared by the thought of Bush winning the election". I was afraid that it would be very, very bad for this country, and absolutely did NOT want that to happen.

It turned out that I was right.

It was very bad for this country.

Nader was asked before the election "What if you candidacy helps Bush win?" Something ANYBODY with a fucking brain KNEW was a possibility. That a$$hole pissant moron piece of excrement said "I do NOT care."

Well I cared then and I care now and that dipwad and his defenders still can NOT ever face facts.

Play the game of "It's a wonderful life". What would the world be like if Ralph Nader had never been born?

One thing is certain. There would NOT ever have been a President George W. Bush.

THAT is his legacy.

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Why is it *my* #%^*ing fault? [View all] MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 OP

The 3rd Way amounts to a death spiral. Jackpine Radical Mar 2014 #1

yes it is! thank you. n/t wildbilln864 Mar 2014 #17

When you're only making right turns, down is the only way to go Scootaloo Mar 2014 #161

you have a big eyeball in your sink passiveporcupine Mar 2014 #222

... F4lconF16 Mar 2014 #235

There's *one* eyeball in the sink. winter is coming Mar 2014 #236

The "Ralph Nader! Ralph Nader!" parrots never seem to remember that Bushco cheated winter is coming Mar 2014 #2

That's right. FoxNewsSucks Mar 2014 #21

+1 for SCROTUS. truebluegreen Mar 2014 #34

The Nader loyalists never seem to remember that an event can have more than one cause. Jim Lane Mar 2014 #71

Nader loyalists?? winter is coming Mar 2014 #76

you've never been interested in apologizing for Nader hfojvt Mar 2014 #88

I'm not defending Nader against his detractors. I've always thought he was a blowhard. winter is coming Mar 2014 #95

nobody EVER says it was the ONLY thing hfojvt Mar 2014 #105

Actually, a lot of people on DU vilify Nader as if that were the only thing. winter is coming Mar 2014 #117

spoken like somebody who is NOT a Dem hfojvt Mar 2014 #126

Blaming someone else for your failure is a Republican trait. winter is coming Mar 2014 #134

Exactly, so Nader never was a factor, was he, as you pointed out. We lost that election also. sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #220

well if not for the a$$hat Nader hfojvt Mar 2014 #239

Gore DID win. And had it not been for the SC traitors, he would have taken his rightful sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #257

The SC stole the 2000 election, and yet, there are those who defend the SC felonious sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #207

Yes, that is indeed what the Nader loyalists invariably say. Jim Lane Mar 2014 #102

Actually, you don't know that. It's possible that Nader would have been a factor, but not certain. winter is coming Mar 2014 #112

I didn't make the assumption you attribute to me. Jim Lane Mar 2014 #123

nice job hfojvt Mar 2014 #115

Which begs the question of why so many voters made "the wrong choice". winter is coming Mar 2014 #118

yeah "stole" is always the strawman hfojvt Mar 2014 #124

"Stole" is a word I've actually heard people use, even if you haven't. winter is coming Mar 2014 #133

A couple million of them realized their error. Jim Lane Mar 2014 #125

... or people realized between 2000 and 2004 just how much Bush sucked, or they winter is coming Mar 2014 #130

They also forget that Al Gore nyquil_man Mar 2014 #94

Yes he did. But would it have been possible without Nader? I don't think so. NT Adrahil Mar 2014 #131

The facts back you up Gothmog Mar 2014 #210

Then there's the voter purges in Florida done by Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris deutsey Mar 2014 #137

Nader did cost Gore the 2000 election Gothmog Mar 2014 #150

So, the Dems who voted for Bush don't matter?? winter is coming Mar 2014 #180

Just look at the votes that Nader took from Gore Gothmog Mar 2014 #184

Those aren't facts NobodyHere Mar 2014 #187

Look at the polling and the fact that Karl Rove funded Nader Gothmog Mar 2014 #200

Cook completely bypasses the issue of Dems voting for Bush. winter is coming Mar 2014 #189

The polling at the time showed that Nader took 2 to 5 times the number of votes from Gore vs Bush Gothmog Mar 2014 #194

I read the article. Like Cook, you're ignoring the fact that we lost far more votes to Bush winter is coming Mar 2014 #208

The votes lost to Nader would have elected Al Gore Gothmog Mar 2014 #215

And a *fraction* of the votes lost to Bush would have also elected Gore. winter is coming Mar 2014 #216

The votes lost to Nader are the votes that could be documented and accounted for Gothmog Mar 2014 #219

Ah, but Gore DID get enough votes when all was said and done. We're stuck maddiemom Mar 2014 #231

The SCOTUS only had the opportunity to rule in Bush v. Gore due to bush's lead Gothmog Mar 2014 #240

Here is a fact that I found to be both troubling and conclusive Gothmog Mar 2014 #225

That speaks to Nader's motives. It still doesn't make him the sole villain. winter is coming Mar 2014 #226

I disagree Gothmog Mar 2014 #229

there was a major civil rights issue also, which never seems to garner much concern G_j Mar 2014 #156

Yes. And the disenfranchisement goes on and on. n/t winter is coming Mar 2014 #181

They should start a Narcissists Party! Bonobo Mar 2014 #3

DARN! adirondacker Mar 2014 #20

Awesome! :) Pholus Mar 2014 #127

It's not your fault. blue neen Mar 2014 #4

"Hey Liberals! Look over there!" MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #28

To be quite honest, I don't even know what the Third Way is. blue neen Mar 2014 #44

I agree that we need to work on 2014, but my democratic congressman has a very, very secure JDPriestly Mar 2014 #52

Thank you. blue neen Mar 2014 #53

Getting the teabaggers out is primarily the job of Democrats living in the teabaggers' districts. JDPriestly Mar 2014 #60

Well, let's see... blue neen Mar 2014 #69

It's the independents who didn't turn out in 2010. winter is coming Mar 2014 #80

From the same article: blue neen Mar 2014 #85

Which makes 2008 the outlier, not 2010. winter is coming Mar 2014 #99

http://www.thirdway.org/ WorseBeforeBetter Mar 2014 #243

My goal is to vote for someone who seems to represent my interests. Screw the "lesser of two evils", GoneFishin Mar 2014 #5

Got that right. If the party wants to win it better put up a populist candidate because I'm done Ed Suspicious Mar 2014 #13

a fuckin men! n/t wildbilln864 Mar 2014 #18

Good. 840high Mar 2014 #14

So, you will feel sufficiently represented by a contributor on MSNBC? Sen. Walter Sobchak Mar 2014 #33

If the Democrats want my vote, they need to EARN it, Maedhros Mar 2014 #147

...and THAT is why Al Gore lost. beerandjesus Mar 2014 #152

The only voice we have is our vote. I will do with my Autumn Mar 2014 #6

This is fucked up. Scuba Mar 2014 #7

Because you are the designated scapegoat Fumesucker Mar 2014 #8

SO MUCH CYNICISM. sibelian Mar 2014 #128

Because you are an imprinted baby duck hater... Agony Mar 2014 #9

So, does that mean he's an imprinted baby duck who hates? winter is coming Mar 2014 #12

If a third way Democrat wins Aerows Mar 2014 #10

I'm always entertained by the paradoxically elastic size of "the left". winter is coming Mar 2014 #15

The "left" only matters Aerows Mar 2014 #30

Great point! LiberalLovinLug Mar 2014 #31

Post of the day! beerandjesus Mar 2014 #155

Because. DeSwiss Mar 2014 #11

Are you FUCKING series???? Neither "Bernie nor Elizabeth" EVER FUCKING ran against madinmaryland Mar 2014 #16

Neither did Obama, until he did. Autumn Mar 2014 #29

Real Democrats are supported by a majority of the party. PhilSays Mar 2014 #19

Enjoy your stay. nt truebluegreen Mar 2014 #36

One thing is true, who ever wins the Democratic nomination, will run against the rethug. If Bernie, lostincalifornia Mar 2014 #57

Actually, he's just stating facts. Beacool Mar 2014 #179

WHY? Auntie Bush Mar 2014 #238

What?? Never mind; just post it when Bernie joins our Party. WinkyDink Mar 2014 #250

Hillary never met a war she didn't like passiveporcupine Mar 2014 #224

The Ralph Nader idiocy will be hard to live down, won't it? nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #22

Chuckle...So True! KoKo Mar 2014 #23

But wait- Pres. Obama announced that income disparity is a problem... pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #24

+1000. JDPriestly Mar 2014 #54

I'd like to accept this award for everyone who ever said ProSense Mar 2014 #25

Sen. Sanders did a great job of responding to Nader Gothmog Mar 2014 #206

I propose a new third way TomClash Mar 2014 #26

Manny's gone bye-bye. Whatta ya got, Egon? longship Mar 2014 #27

Can you explain if the Third Way really want Republicans to win? They offer nothing that the Republ rhett o rick Mar 2014 #32

In Florida 24,000 Democrats voted for Nader, 308,000 Democrats voted for Bush. pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #35

pragmatic_dem Welcome to DU. Autumn Mar 2014 #37

EXCELLENT point. /nt Marr Mar 2014 #38

that's because those Dems wanted someone who was more right wing JI7 Mar 2014 #45

Gore didn't cary his own state of Tennessee kcr Mar 2014 #46

The Worker's World Party got more than 1000 votes pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #49

Okay, we can blame them, too. kcr Mar 2014 #51

So you believe that a political monopoly is best for all, unlike corporate monopolies? I don't... pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #56

No, I don't believe that at all kcr Mar 2014 #61

Bush, won twice. Is that Nader's fault? Democratic leadership is responsible. It's their job. pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #68

Nader is partly to blame kcr Mar 2014 #72

But 300,000 Democrats in Florida voted for Bush, not Nader. Why not blame them? Or Dem leadeship or pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #79

Hmm kcr Mar 2014 #81

And you seem to be deflecting blame for failure away from Democratic leadership pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #86

Not at all kcr Mar 2014 #101

Here's the thing: Nader ran to the left of Gore, and Gore did not respond. Maedhros Mar 2014 #148

Clinton left office with the highest approval ratings of any president in years. Beacool Mar 2014 #191

Clinton's approval was so high, 300,000 FL democrats voted for Bush. That's why Gore lost. Blame pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #244

Amen to your PMRC point! beerandjesus Mar 2014 #154

Possible - PMRC was a cluster-fk, unwelcome invasion of hard right wing into democratic party pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #245

"10s of millions of Democrats who stayed home" Beartracks Mar 2014 #157

^^ This. winter is coming Mar 2014 #185

All true kcr Mar 2014 #186

The people who feel disenfranchised by their own party don't seem to feel that winter is coming Mar 2014 #190

I don't know what to tell them. They can't see the results? What's happened to this country? kcr Mar 2014 #192

The Republicans didn't do it all by their lonesome. winter is coming Mar 2014 #195

But it wouldn't have happened had the repubs not been elected in the first place kcr Mar 2014 #199

That's a result of the party not looking at why they lost. winter is coming Mar 2014 #202

That's right. Because they don't do that kcr Mar 2014 #209

So... vote for them and they assume we approve of their behavior. winter is coming Mar 2014 #212

In part, yes. kcr Mar 2014 #214

Agree +1 for standing up for traditional Democratic values and not this watered pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #249

Like Truman said: "Given the choice between a Republican... Beartracks Mar 2014 #230

I assure you the self-proclaimed liberal who didn't vote for anyone did FAR pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #248

WWP supports the North Korean Govt, Gore would have lost badly nationally if he tried JI7 Mar 2014 #58

right, however, you can blame them just as much as Nader, but not as much as Democrats themselves... pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #73

Dems who voted for Bush wanted someone right wing, just like WWP wanted someone who supports North JI7 Mar 2014 #75

"Clinton's behavior after getting caught with his pants down" "Gore is wooden" JI7 Mar 2014 #77

Yep. kcr Mar 2014 #82

very clear , i have seen it over the years and recognize what is being done JI7 Mar 2014 #91

then you need to get your eyes checked - nt pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #98

No it isnt, clinton made a circus of it all, cost a lot of votes pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #93

Nader is stiff and wooden, Gore has a sense of humor and is very affectionate with people JI7 Mar 2014 #97

I remember that campaign very well and was in panic mode because Gore pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #100

it was the right wing that kept going on about Gore being stiff and wooden and you are JI7 Mar 2014 #104

lol- whatever, i give up. You win. pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #109

Gore is now, but he wasn't in 2000. I think he had bad handlers. winter is coming Mar 2014 #103

no, Gore always had a sense of Humor, it was the right wing and media whores who kept JI7 Mar 2014 #107

I saw the 2000 debates. He didn't comes across as personable and relaxed, which was a shame. n/t winter is coming Mar 2014 #114

he beat Bush in the debate so the media and right wing started going on about how mean he was JI7 Mar 2014 #116

Exactly. He won that debate kcr Mar 2014 #119

Gore was so effective, 10s of millions of democrats didn't vote at all pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #251

And nothing frustrates me more when Dems screw it up kcr Mar 2014 #252

If Gore only sang "If I only had a brain" over & over, I wouldn't have voted for him pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #254

No. That's where you're wrong. kcr Mar 2014 #256

When did she attack 10,000 Maniacs? kcr Mar 2014 #78

they were called out by pmrc during congressional hearing pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #84

I recall the fuss being distorted by assholes like Frank Zappa kcr Mar 2014 #87

That's a very conservative view you have. Having a committee decide what is safe pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #90

Distorting is very right wing kcr Mar 2014 #108

certainly the ratings today favor violence over sex, and pmrc was a commitee pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #110

I think he was an asshole for distorting Tipper Gore's position, yes. kcr Mar 2014 #113

LOL "We decide what you can listen to, peasants!" is consumer advocacy. JoeyT Mar 2014 #129

Tipper Gore wasn't telling anyone what they could listen to. kcr Mar 2014 #140

"Assholes like Frank Zappa"? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #132

Yep. kcr Mar 2014 #141

You're mad because he didn't promote *your* issues Fumesucker Mar 2014 #158

They're not my issues kcr Mar 2014 #160

Your mad because Zappa didn't promote *your* issues Fumesucker Mar 2014 #162

It's like you didn't even read what I said kcr Mar 2014 #164

It's like you didn't even read what I said Fumesucker Mar 2014 #166

Okay kcr Mar 2014 #168

So you admit Tipper was an asshole for fighting on an unimportant issue too? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #170

Did she distort someone else's opinion and claim it was censorship? kcr Mar 2014 #172

Tipper was the one who made it an issue in the first place Fumesucker Mar 2014 #173

More twisting kcr Mar 2014 #174

Zappa would probably have sold more rather than less with the stickers... Fumesucker Mar 2014 #175

Look, I'm not even the one who brought it up in the first place kcr Mar 2014 #176

You didn't call Zappa "an asshole"? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #177

This about me callling Zappa an asshole? kcr Mar 2014 #178

KCR, you're assuming that all 2000 voters were as well-informed as you are. beerandjesus Mar 2014 #258

How well informed do you have to be kcr Mar 2014 #260

Wow. zappaman Mar 2014 #163

Government regulation. OMGZ!!!! kcr Mar 2014 #167

Duh. zappaman Mar 2014 #169

Yep. Because that's what I just said. kcr Mar 2014 #171

+1 leftstreet Mar 2014 #165

the real Democrats are the ones that are there treestar Mar 2014 #39

We are eager to have a functioning government MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #40

Although I understand where you're coming from... JohnnyRingo Mar 2014 #41

Because if the Third Way loses they have to look for a job in the economy they created by policy. jtuck004 Mar 2014 #42

You never know, they could learn to love the slums of India... nt pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #47

Heck, another 10 or 20 years of this and we could rename Texas Maharashtra jtuck004 Mar 2014 #55

You are right about that... nt pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #59

I'm of the firm belief...... Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #43

hey everybody, look at meeeeeeeee!!!!111!!!!!!11!! dionysus Mar 2014 #48

That is about how I read it. If some people could stake themselves to a cross, they would. nt bluestate10 Mar 2014 #218

And here I thought it was "Turd Way." RoccoR5955 Mar 2014 #50

Some are like telemarketers jsr Mar 2014 #83

TELL IT!!!!!!!!!!!! secondwind Mar 2014 #62

Nader? Is he still alive? Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2014 #63

He's kind of like the Cryptkeeper. winter is coming Mar 2014 #64

Only in our Common Dreams... adirondacker Mar 2014 #111

You're single handedly responsible for losing us the next election Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #65

There is a primary process, as much as some people may wish for an automatic coronation. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #66

SO, I'm not a REAL Democrat..... brooklynite Mar 2014 #67

Touch�....... Beacool Mar 2014 #188

Hahahahaha!! beerandjesus Mar 2014 #259

If the Democratic Party wants the votes of the left, it has to run leftist candidates. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #70

By that logic, if they want the votes of centrist voters they should run centrist candidates... brooklynite Mar 2014 #135

Which is what they've been doing. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #143

as we can see from the responses ("participating in democracy just sabotages it!" "I don't CARE MisterP Mar 2014 #74

Everyone knows a monopoly of power best serves the majority of citizens, just ask China pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #138

True, funny how the usual suspects ALWAYS forget to mention the SCOTUS Rex Mar 2014 #203

#%^*ing spliter! Dragonfli Mar 2014 #89

While I disagree with you on Hillary I think you should say how you feel on Warren and hrmjustin Mar 2014 #92

What's Nader got to do with it? hfojvt Mar 2014 #96

McGovern and Mondale ran against incumbents. Not really surprising they lost. winter is coming Mar 2014 #120

Dukakis was leading until that debate question on death penalty, and Clinton ran against an JI7 Mar 2014 #121

Clinton ran against someone who had broken his "no new taxes" promise. winter is coming Mar 2014 #122

Clinton is heir apparent, it has been written by tribal elders... pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #106

Kicked and recommended a whole bunch. Enthusiast Mar 2014 #136

I think they should run in the primaries and see if they MineralMan Mar 2014 #139

Still fighting (and losing) the last war. JoePhilly Mar 2014 #142

Because what is true and what you want to be true are different whatthehey Mar 2014 #144

My goodness. sibelian Mar 2014 #146

I have yet to discover what's pragmatic about continually favoring corporations over people. winter is coming Mar 2014 #183

Well, the answer to that, winter... sibelian Mar 2014 #232

Indeed. But what we want to be true will only happen if we take steps to make it so. Maedhros Mar 2014 #149

This....... Beacool Mar 2014 #182

Only an adolescent fool sibelian Mar 2014 #233

Who said it was your #%^*ing fault, Manny? MineralMan Mar 2014 #145

While We're Time Traveling Into the Past tea and oranges Mar 2014 #151

That was Gore's mistake. Beacool Mar 2014 #196

'Zactly! Incredibly Stupid on Gore's Part tea and oranges Mar 2014 #213

Is someone calling for a 3rd party candidate? an independent? JustABozoOnThisBus Mar 2014 #153

A-#%^*ing-MEN!!! FiveGoodMen Mar 2014 #159

Manny, as much as it may pain you, the world does not revolve around you. Beacool Mar 2014 #193

Wow, that wasn't condescening or anything? Fearless Mar 2014 #198

He writes attention seeking threads on an almost daily basis. Beacool Mar 2014 #201

A person can stand around and shout for attention til the cows come home Fearless Mar 2014 #204

He writes stuff that grabs their attention. Beacool Mar 2014 #211

What is right is not always easy and what is easy is not always right. Fearless Mar 2014 #217

...apparently grabs yours as well. nt Union Scribe Mar 2014 #234

Meh, his posts are like summer flies. Beacool Mar 2014 #253

+1,000,000! Fearless Mar 2014 #197

K&R for pissing off all the RIGHT people! Rex Mar 2014 #205

It isn't your fault. Relax, Manny, most Democrats agree with YOU! sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #221

I don't really care why it's your fault, as long as I can blame you. winter is coming Mar 2014 #223

Recommended. H2O Man Mar 2014 #227

this sounds like an attack on fellow Democrats functioning_cog Mar 2014 #228

Wow MannyGoldstein you sure know how to bring the �neo� out of the liberals. fleabiscuit Mar 2014 #237

Third Way is the Enemy. Don't listen to their LIES. blkmusclmachine Mar 2014 #241

OMG NO, We must support HILLARY! obxhead Mar 2014 #242

Common sense, common good PATRICK Mar 2014 #246

K&R bobduca Mar 2014 #247

The Third Way really does need to get out of the way. mvd Mar 2014 #255