General Discussion

whatthehey

(3,660 posts)

144. Because what is true and what you want to be true are different

Wed Mar 12, 2014, 12:21 PM

Mar 2014

One of two people will be the next President.

Whoever is the Dem nominee and whoever is the Rep nominee.

It's perfectly ok to complain that that's suboptimal and unfair, even perfectly accurate. It's also irrelevant. A half dozen or so states are close enough to make the difference in who wins. Doing anything to reduce the vote for the Dem nominee in those states is not implicitly or figuratively helping to elect the Republican, it is explicitly and directly helping to do so.

Whining about the lesser of two evils and wanting to vote for someone not against someone implies luxuries we do not have. Lessening evil is the only sane choice even if we take it as gospel that both nominees are evil. Waiting for somebody to vote for, applied with reasonable frequency even to the laughable point of yes Nader, makes the one you should have voted against the next President.

Be angry if you like at the system that makes it so, but the people who say it is so are not to blame for that. If anyone doubts my basic claim, feel free to suggest a wager that the next President will not be one of the two people I suggested. When you have a choice between A and B, pining for C is useless self-flagellation akin to a convicted capital murderer in the sentence phase of the trial hoping he is set free rather than being given the needle or LWP. No matter how bad you think any Dem may be, corporo or third way or DLC or DINO or whatever label you choose, they are massively better than the only alternative you have in reality.

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Why is it *my* #%^*ing fault? [View all] MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 OP

The 3rd Way amounts to a death spiral. Jackpine Radical Mar 2014 #1

yes it is! thank you. n/t wildbilln864 Mar 2014 #17

When you're only making right turns, down is the only way to go Scootaloo Mar 2014 #161

you have a big eyeball in your sink passiveporcupine Mar 2014 #222

... F4lconF16 Mar 2014 #235

There's *one* eyeball in the sink. winter is coming Mar 2014 #236

The "Ralph Nader! Ralph Nader!" parrots never seem to remember that Bushco cheated winter is coming Mar 2014 #2

That's right. FoxNewsSucks Mar 2014 #21

+1 for SCROTUS. truebluegreen Mar 2014 #34

The Nader loyalists never seem to remember that an event can have more than one cause. Jim Lane Mar 2014 #71

Nader loyalists?? winter is coming Mar 2014 #76

you've never been interested in apologizing for Nader hfojvt Mar 2014 #88

I'm not defending Nader against his detractors. I've always thought he was a blowhard. winter is coming Mar 2014 #95

nobody EVER says it was the ONLY thing hfojvt Mar 2014 #105

Actually, a lot of people on DU vilify Nader as if that were the only thing. winter is coming Mar 2014 #117

spoken like somebody who is NOT a Dem hfojvt Mar 2014 #126

Blaming someone else for your failure is a Republican trait. winter is coming Mar 2014 #134

Exactly, so Nader never was a factor, was he, as you pointed out. We lost that election also. sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #220

well if not for the a$$hat Nader hfojvt Mar 2014 #239

Gore DID win. And had it not been for the SC traitors, he would have taken his rightful sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #257

The SC stole the 2000 election, and yet, there are those who defend the SC felonious sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #207

Yes, that is indeed what the Nader loyalists invariably say. Jim Lane Mar 2014 #102

Actually, you don't know that. It's possible that Nader would have been a factor, but not certain. winter is coming Mar 2014 #112

I didn't make the assumption you attribute to me. Jim Lane Mar 2014 #123

nice job hfojvt Mar 2014 #115

Which begs the question of why so many voters made "the wrong choice". winter is coming Mar 2014 #118

yeah "stole" is always the strawman hfojvt Mar 2014 #124

"Stole" is a word I've actually heard people use, even if you haven't. winter is coming Mar 2014 #133

A couple million of them realized their error. Jim Lane Mar 2014 #125

... or people realized between 2000 and 2004 just how much Bush sucked, or they winter is coming Mar 2014 #130

They also forget that Al Gore nyquil_man Mar 2014 #94

Yes he did. But would it have been possible without Nader? I don't think so. NT Adrahil Mar 2014 #131

The facts back you up Gothmog Mar 2014 #210

Then there's the voter purges in Florida done by Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris deutsey Mar 2014 #137

Nader did cost Gore the 2000 election Gothmog Mar 2014 #150

So, the Dems who voted for Bush don't matter?? winter is coming Mar 2014 #180

Just look at the votes that Nader took from Gore Gothmog Mar 2014 #184

Those aren't facts NobodyHere Mar 2014 #187

Look at the polling and the fact that Karl Rove funded Nader Gothmog Mar 2014 #200

Cook completely bypasses the issue of Dems voting for Bush. winter is coming Mar 2014 #189

The polling at the time showed that Nader took 2 to 5 times the number of votes from Gore vs Bush Gothmog Mar 2014 #194

I read the article. Like Cook, you're ignoring the fact that we lost far more votes to Bush winter is coming Mar 2014 #208

The votes lost to Nader would have elected Al Gore Gothmog Mar 2014 #215

And a *fraction* of the votes lost to Bush would have also elected Gore. winter is coming Mar 2014 #216

The votes lost to Nader are the votes that could be documented and accounted for Gothmog Mar 2014 #219

Ah, but Gore DID get enough votes when all was said and done. We're stuck maddiemom Mar 2014 #231

The SCOTUS only had the opportunity to rule in Bush v. Gore due to bush's lead Gothmog Mar 2014 #240

Here is a fact that I found to be both troubling and conclusive Gothmog Mar 2014 #225

That speaks to Nader's motives. It still doesn't make him the sole villain. winter is coming Mar 2014 #226

I disagree Gothmog Mar 2014 #229

there was a major civil rights issue also, which never seems to garner much concern G_j Mar 2014 #156

Yes. And the disenfranchisement goes on and on. n/t winter is coming Mar 2014 #181

They should start a Narcissists Party! Bonobo Mar 2014 #3

DARN! adirondacker Mar 2014 #20

Awesome! :) Pholus Mar 2014 #127

It's not your fault. blue neen Mar 2014 #4

"Hey Liberals! Look over there!" MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #28

To be quite honest, I don't even know what the Third Way is. blue neen Mar 2014 #44

I agree that we need to work on 2014, but my democratic congressman has a very, very secure JDPriestly Mar 2014 #52

Thank you. blue neen Mar 2014 #53

Getting the teabaggers out is primarily the job of Democrats living in the teabaggers' districts. JDPriestly Mar 2014 #60

Well, let's see... blue neen Mar 2014 #69

It's the independents who didn't turn out in 2010. winter is coming Mar 2014 #80

From the same article: blue neen Mar 2014 #85

Which makes 2008 the outlier, not 2010. winter is coming Mar 2014 #99

http://www.thirdway.org/ WorseBeforeBetter Mar 2014 #243

My goal is to vote for someone who seems to represent my interests. Screw the "lesser of two evils", GoneFishin Mar 2014 #5

Got that right. If the party wants to win it better put up a populist candidate because I'm done Ed Suspicious Mar 2014 #13

a fuckin men! n/t wildbilln864 Mar 2014 #18

Good. 840high Mar 2014 #14

So, you will feel sufficiently represented by a contributor on MSNBC? Sen. Walter Sobchak Mar 2014 #33

If the Democrats want my vote, they need to EARN it, Maedhros Mar 2014 #147

...and THAT is why Al Gore lost. beerandjesus Mar 2014 #152

The only voice we have is our vote. I will do with my Autumn Mar 2014 #6

This is fucked up. Scuba Mar 2014 #7

Because you are the designated scapegoat Fumesucker Mar 2014 #8

SO MUCH CYNICISM. sibelian Mar 2014 #128

Because you are an imprinted baby duck hater... Agony Mar 2014 #9

So, does that mean he's an imprinted baby duck who hates? winter is coming Mar 2014 #12

If a third way Democrat wins Aerows Mar 2014 #10

I'm always entertained by the paradoxically elastic size of "the left". winter is coming Mar 2014 #15

The "left" only matters Aerows Mar 2014 #30

Great point! LiberalLovinLug Mar 2014 #31

Post of the day! beerandjesus Mar 2014 #155

Because. DeSwiss Mar 2014 #11

Are you FUCKING series???? Neither "Bernie nor Elizabeth" EVER FUCKING ran against madinmaryland Mar 2014 #16

Neither did Obama, until he did. Autumn Mar 2014 #29

Real Democrats are supported by a majority of the party. PhilSays Mar 2014 #19

Enjoy your stay. nt truebluegreen Mar 2014 #36

One thing is true, who ever wins the Democratic nomination, will run against the rethug. If Bernie, lostincalifornia Mar 2014 #57

Actually, he's just stating facts. Beacool Mar 2014 #179

WHY? Auntie Bush Mar 2014 #238

What?? Never mind; just post it when Bernie joins our Party. WinkyDink Mar 2014 #250

Hillary never met a war she didn't like passiveporcupine Mar 2014 #224

The Ralph Nader idiocy will be hard to live down, won't it? nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #22

Chuckle...So True! KoKo Mar 2014 #23

But wait- Pres. Obama announced that income disparity is a problem... pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #24

+1000. JDPriestly Mar 2014 #54

I'd like to accept this award for everyone who ever said ProSense Mar 2014 #25

Sen. Sanders did a great job of responding to Nader Gothmog Mar 2014 #206

I propose a new third way TomClash Mar 2014 #26

Manny's gone bye-bye. Whatta ya got, Egon? longship Mar 2014 #27

Can you explain if the Third Way really want Republicans to win? They offer nothing that the Republ rhett o rick Mar 2014 #32

In Florida 24,000 Democrats voted for Nader, 308,000 Democrats voted for Bush. pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #35

pragmatic_dem Welcome to DU. Autumn Mar 2014 #37

EXCELLENT point. /nt Marr Mar 2014 #38

that's because those Dems wanted someone who was more right wing JI7 Mar 2014 #45

Gore didn't cary his own state of Tennessee kcr Mar 2014 #46

The Worker's World Party got more than 1000 votes pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #49

Okay, we can blame them, too. kcr Mar 2014 #51

So you believe that a political monopoly is best for all, unlike corporate monopolies? I don't... pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #56

No, I don't believe that at all kcr Mar 2014 #61

Bush, won twice. Is that Nader's fault? Democratic leadership is responsible. It's their job. pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #68

Nader is partly to blame kcr Mar 2014 #72

But 300,000 Democrats in Florida voted for Bush, not Nader. Why not blame them? Or Dem leadeship or pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #79

Hmm kcr Mar 2014 #81

And you seem to be deflecting blame for failure away from Democratic leadership pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #86

Not at all kcr Mar 2014 #101

Here's the thing: Nader ran to the left of Gore, and Gore did not respond. Maedhros Mar 2014 #148

Clinton left office with the highest approval ratings of any president in years. Beacool Mar 2014 #191

Clinton's approval was so high, 300,000 FL democrats voted for Bush. That's why Gore lost. Blame pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #244

Amen to your PMRC point! beerandjesus Mar 2014 #154

Possible - PMRC was a cluster-fk, unwelcome invasion of hard right wing into democratic party pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #245

"10s of millions of Democrats who stayed home" Beartracks Mar 2014 #157

^^ This. winter is coming Mar 2014 #185

All true kcr Mar 2014 #186

The people who feel disenfranchised by their own party don't seem to feel that winter is coming Mar 2014 #190

I don't know what to tell them. They can't see the results? What's happened to this country? kcr Mar 2014 #192

The Republicans didn't do it all by their lonesome. winter is coming Mar 2014 #195

But it wouldn't have happened had the repubs not been elected in the first place kcr Mar 2014 #199

That's a result of the party not looking at why they lost. winter is coming Mar 2014 #202

That's right. Because they don't do that kcr Mar 2014 #209

So... vote for them and they assume we approve of their behavior. winter is coming Mar 2014 #212

In part, yes. kcr Mar 2014 #214

Agree +1 for standing up for traditional Democratic values and not this watered pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #249

Like Truman said: "Given the choice between a Republican... Beartracks Mar 2014 #230

I assure you the self-proclaimed liberal who didn't vote for anyone did FAR pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #248

WWP supports the North Korean Govt, Gore would have lost badly nationally if he tried JI7 Mar 2014 #58

right, however, you can blame them just as much as Nader, but not as much as Democrats themselves... pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #73

Dems who voted for Bush wanted someone right wing, just like WWP wanted someone who supports North JI7 Mar 2014 #75

"Clinton's behavior after getting caught with his pants down" "Gore is wooden" JI7 Mar 2014 #77

Yep. kcr Mar 2014 #82

very clear , i have seen it over the years and recognize what is being done JI7 Mar 2014 #91

then you need to get your eyes checked - nt pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #98

No it isnt, clinton made a circus of it all, cost a lot of votes pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #93

Nader is stiff and wooden, Gore has a sense of humor and is very affectionate with people JI7 Mar 2014 #97

I remember that campaign very well and was in panic mode because Gore pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #100

it was the right wing that kept going on about Gore being stiff and wooden and you are JI7 Mar 2014 #104

lol- whatever, i give up. You win. pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #109

Gore is now, but he wasn't in 2000. I think he had bad handlers. winter is coming Mar 2014 #103

no, Gore always had a sense of Humor, it was the right wing and media whores who kept JI7 Mar 2014 #107

I saw the 2000 debates. He didn't comes across as personable and relaxed, which was a shame. n/t winter is coming Mar 2014 #114

he beat Bush in the debate so the media and right wing started going on about how mean he was JI7 Mar 2014 #116

Exactly. He won that debate kcr Mar 2014 #119

Gore was so effective, 10s of millions of democrats didn't vote at all pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #251

And nothing frustrates me more when Dems screw it up kcr Mar 2014 #252

If Gore only sang "If I only had a brain" over & over, I wouldn't have voted for him pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #254

No. That's where you're wrong. kcr Mar 2014 #256

When did she attack 10,000 Maniacs? kcr Mar 2014 #78

they were called out by pmrc during congressional hearing pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #84

I recall the fuss being distorted by assholes like Frank Zappa kcr Mar 2014 #87

That's a very conservative view you have. Having a committee decide what is safe pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #90

Distorting is very right wing kcr Mar 2014 #108

certainly the ratings today favor violence over sex, and pmrc was a commitee pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #110

I think he was an asshole for distorting Tipper Gore's position, yes. kcr Mar 2014 #113

LOL "We decide what you can listen to, peasants!" is consumer advocacy. JoeyT Mar 2014 #129

Tipper Gore wasn't telling anyone what they could listen to. kcr Mar 2014 #140

"Assholes like Frank Zappa"? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #132

Yep. kcr Mar 2014 #141

You're mad because he didn't promote *your* issues Fumesucker Mar 2014 #158

They're not my issues kcr Mar 2014 #160

Your mad because Zappa didn't promote *your* issues Fumesucker Mar 2014 #162

It's like you didn't even read what I said kcr Mar 2014 #164

It's like you didn't even read what I said Fumesucker Mar 2014 #166

Okay kcr Mar 2014 #168

So you admit Tipper was an asshole for fighting on an unimportant issue too? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #170

Did she distort someone else's opinion and claim it was censorship? kcr Mar 2014 #172

Tipper was the one who made it an issue in the first place Fumesucker Mar 2014 #173

More twisting kcr Mar 2014 #174

Zappa would probably have sold more rather than less with the stickers... Fumesucker Mar 2014 #175

Look, I'm not even the one who brought it up in the first place kcr Mar 2014 #176

You didn't call Zappa "an asshole"? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #177

This about me callling Zappa an asshole? kcr Mar 2014 #178

KCR, you're assuming that all 2000 voters were as well-informed as you are. beerandjesus Mar 2014 #258

How well informed do you have to be kcr Mar 2014 #260

Wow. zappaman Mar 2014 #163

Government regulation. OMGZ!!!! kcr Mar 2014 #167

Duh. zappaman Mar 2014 #169

Yep. Because that's what I just said. kcr Mar 2014 #171

+1 leftstreet Mar 2014 #165

the real Democrats are the ones that are there treestar Mar 2014 #39

We are eager to have a functioning government MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #40

Although I understand where you're coming from... JohnnyRingo Mar 2014 #41

Because if the Third Way loses they have to look for a job in the economy they created by policy. jtuck004 Mar 2014 #42

You never know, they could learn to love the slums of India... nt pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #47

Heck, another 10 or 20 years of this and we could rename Texas Maharashtra jtuck004 Mar 2014 #55

You are right about that... nt pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #59

I'm of the firm belief...... Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #43

hey everybody, look at meeeeeeeee!!!!111!!!!!!11!! dionysus Mar 2014 #48

That is about how I read it. If some people could stake themselves to a cross, they would. nt bluestate10 Mar 2014 #218

And here I thought it was "Turd Way." RoccoR5955 Mar 2014 #50

Some are like telemarketers jsr Mar 2014 #83

TELL IT!!!!!!!!!!!! secondwind Mar 2014 #62

Nader? Is he still alive? Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2014 #63

He's kind of like the Cryptkeeper. winter is coming Mar 2014 #64

Only in our Common Dreams... adirondacker Mar 2014 #111

You're single handedly responsible for losing us the next election Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #65

There is a primary process, as much as some people may wish for an automatic coronation. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #66

SO, I'm not a REAL Democrat..... brooklynite Mar 2014 #67

Touch�....... Beacool Mar 2014 #188

Hahahahaha!! beerandjesus Mar 2014 #259

If the Democratic Party wants the votes of the left, it has to run leftist candidates. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #70

By that logic, if they want the votes of centrist voters they should run centrist candidates... brooklynite Mar 2014 #135

Which is what they've been doing. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #143

as we can see from the responses ("participating in democracy just sabotages it!" "I don't CARE MisterP Mar 2014 #74

Everyone knows a monopoly of power best serves the majority of citizens, just ask China pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #138

True, funny how the usual suspects ALWAYS forget to mention the SCOTUS Rex Mar 2014 #203

#%^*ing spliter! Dragonfli Mar 2014 #89

While I disagree with you on Hillary I think you should say how you feel on Warren and hrmjustin Mar 2014 #92

What's Nader got to do with it? hfojvt Mar 2014 #96

McGovern and Mondale ran against incumbents. Not really surprising they lost. winter is coming Mar 2014 #120

Dukakis was leading until that debate question on death penalty, and Clinton ran against an JI7 Mar 2014 #121

Clinton ran against someone who had broken his "no new taxes" promise. winter is coming Mar 2014 #122

Clinton is heir apparent, it has been written by tribal elders... pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #106

Kicked and recommended a whole bunch. Enthusiast Mar 2014 #136

I think they should run in the primaries and see if they MineralMan Mar 2014 #139

Still fighting (and losing) the last war. JoePhilly Mar 2014 #142

Because what is true and what you want to be true are different whatthehey Mar 2014 #144

My goodness. sibelian Mar 2014 #146

I have yet to discover what's pragmatic about continually favoring corporations over people. winter is coming Mar 2014 #183

Well, the answer to that, winter... sibelian Mar 2014 #232

Indeed. But what we want to be true will only happen if we take steps to make it so. Maedhros Mar 2014 #149

This....... Beacool Mar 2014 #182

Only an adolescent fool sibelian Mar 2014 #233

Who said it was your #%^*ing fault, Manny? MineralMan Mar 2014 #145

While We're Time Traveling Into the Past tea and oranges Mar 2014 #151

That was Gore's mistake. Beacool Mar 2014 #196

'Zactly! Incredibly Stupid on Gore's Part tea and oranges Mar 2014 #213

Is someone calling for a 3rd party candidate? an independent? JustABozoOnThisBus Mar 2014 #153

A-#%^*ing-MEN!!! FiveGoodMen Mar 2014 #159

Manny, as much as it may pain you, the world does not revolve around you. Beacool Mar 2014 #193

Wow, that wasn't condescening or anything? Fearless Mar 2014 #198

He writes attention seeking threads on an almost daily basis. Beacool Mar 2014 #201

A person can stand around and shout for attention til the cows come home Fearless Mar 2014 #204

He writes stuff that grabs their attention. Beacool Mar 2014 #211

What is right is not always easy and what is easy is not always right. Fearless Mar 2014 #217

...apparently grabs yours as well. nt Union Scribe Mar 2014 #234

Meh, his posts are like summer flies. Beacool Mar 2014 #253

+1,000,000! Fearless Mar 2014 #197

K&R for pissing off all the RIGHT people! Rex Mar 2014 #205

It isn't your fault. Relax, Manny, most Democrats agree with YOU! sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #221

I don't really care why it's your fault, as long as I can blame you. winter is coming Mar 2014 #223

Recommended. H2O Man Mar 2014 #227

this sounds like an attack on fellow Democrats functioning_cog Mar 2014 #228

Wow MannyGoldstein you sure know how to bring the �neo� out of the liberals. fleabiscuit Mar 2014 #237

Third Way is the Enemy. Don't listen to their LIES. blkmusclmachine Mar 2014 #241

OMG NO, We must support HILLARY! obxhead Mar 2014 #242

Common sense, common good PATRICK Mar 2014 #246

K&R bobduca Mar 2014 #247

The Third Way really does need to get out of the way. mvd Mar 2014 #255