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enki23

(7,795 posts)

133. Awesome Perspective!

Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:15 PM

Mar 2014

<sarcasm>The ancestors of most African Americans survived slavery. Look how many of them there now. There's some perspective for you. At the population level, slavery hardly matters at all!</sarcasm>

In environmental toxicology, one of the big challenges is to discover whether even measured, certain, documented toxic effects actually harm a species at the population level. Many species produce sufficient offspring that they can handle a pretty significant degree of mobidity, mortality, and/or reduced fecundity without significant effects on the population numbers. And hey, if you apply that level of perspective to humans, the same applies.

Genocides don't matter. Wars don't matter. Most diseases don't matter. Parasites don't matter. Food safety doesn't matter. Workplace safety doesn't matter. Intense suffering and anguish doesn't matter. Poor people don't fucking matter. The population will grow regardless. It might even grow faster. If that is the perspective that matters to you, then you can relax in the face of quite a lot of death and suffering. You'd be a fucking asshole with truly fucked up values, but it wouldn't be an invalid perspective if that is where you're standing.

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Thanks, Anti-Vaxxers. You Just Brought Back Measles in NYC. [View all] zappaman Mar 2014 OP

I will never understand anti-vaxxers. Rex Mar 2014 #1

For some reason... zappaman Mar 2014 #38

They are actually starting to HURT other people with their continued ignorance. Rex Mar 2014 #43

If you are alive today HockeyMom Mar 2014 #75

That still is no excuse for NOT getting your children vaccinated TODAY. Rex Mar 2014 #82

In 1966 my parents had no choice. deafskeptic Mar 2014 #229

If someone is not here today, Sissyk Mar 2014 #85

Silly perspective pipoman Mar 2014 #93

That's demonstrably wrong. chrisa Mar 2014 #101

Actually, plague is handled with antibiotics and not vaccines. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #134

There is a vaccine for plague wercal Mar 2014 #139

I didn't know that. I guess they vaccinate for all kinds of things in the Army Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #143

There is a plague vaccine...I am vaccinated due to travel I've done. nt msanthrope Mar 2014 #223

Not quite getting where you're coming from. Arkana Mar 2014 #124

Awesome Perspective! enki23 Mar 2014 #133

wow. I am speechless..... bowens43 Mar 2014 #151

Actually, my grandfather died in the Flue Pandemic. Demoiselle Mar 2014 #155

The 1918 Flu Pandemic killed some 100 million, iirc. Want to take your chances on that? Hekate Mar 2014 #178

Not to pile on... Barack_America Mar 2014 #183

WTF? PCIntern Mar 2014 #202

50-100 million died. Think of all those who might be alive if those hadn't died. I mean, what? uppityperson Mar 2014 #213

my grandmother almost died in the 1918 flu pandemic d_r Mar 2014 #226

That, is bizarre! n/t RKP5637 Mar 2014 #227

Think of it from the perspective of all those that died or have congential issues Sheepshank Mar 2014 #239

My GF is sort of an anti-vaxxer Ex Lurker Mar 2014 #46

Well I am wary of hospitals and try to avoid them at all cost. Rex Mar 2014 #47

Her kid is past vaccination age? Madam Mossfern Mar 2014 #65

I believe he has been vaccinated nt Ex Lurker Mar 2014 #67

he still needs booster shots as he gets older demigoddess Mar 2014 #88

My 35 year old daughter laughed at booster shots HockeyMom Mar 2014 #192

I'm 42 and just got vaccinated for MMR plus a TDaP TransitJohn Mar 2014 #166

Hopefully, "an adult able to make better choices for his health". Barack_America Mar 2014 #190

Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #95

It's easy. They are stupid, pigheaded luddites who think they know more medicine than doctors kestrel91316 Mar 2014 #159

Idiots. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #2

du rec. xchrom Mar 2014 #3

Measles in pregnancy, associated with increased stillbirth and miscarriage uppityperson Mar 2014 #4

German measles or rubeola? sunnystarr Mar 2014 #11

Rubeola uppityperson Mar 2014 #21

Rubeola IS regular measles. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #91

Rubella causes the infection which is hazardous to fetal development. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #102

Why exactly are Vaccers scared again? Shouldn't they be protected? nt thereismore Mar 2014 #5

Not everyone can be vaccinated. nt ZombieHorde Mar 2014 #6

No Pro-vax person ever suggests that everyone must get vaccinated. eggplant Mar 2014 #107

Are you agreeing with my post and adding to it, ZombieHorde Mar 2014 #132

Heh, I was rebutting it... eggplant Mar 2014 #140

lol nt ZombieHorde Mar 2014 #145

google 'herd immunity' and get back to us nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #8

You do that. Herd immunity should not break down just because a tiny fraction of people doesn't thereismore Mar 2014 #15

wrong...Measles is a highly contagious disease and requires over 90% to be immune (vaccinated)... yawnmaster Mar 2014 #28

Are you saying that less than 90% of people got the measles vaccine? thereismore Mar 2014 #30

No, I am saying that when less than (around) 90% are immune, either through exposure... yawnmaster Mar 2014 #40

So that means that this "epidemic" occured despite the fact that >90% people did thereismore Mar 2014 #247

No, it doesn't mean that at all. eom yawnmaster Mar 2014 #248

Smallpox has been eradicated. Last known case in US was 1949. In the world 1977. Tess49 Mar 2014 #152

Yes it has, because people were vaccinated. Measles eradication is a continuing issue because... yawnmaster Mar 2014 #158

Because vaccination for it was pushed and pushed hard. I got it, and the boosters. Funny story... Hekate Mar 2014 #184

I remember everyone getting their smallpox vaccination when I was a child. I was born in 1949. It Tess49 Mar 2014 #221

Herd immunity requires around 90% vaccination. jeff47 Mar 2014 #115

Also herd immunity jamzrockz Mar 2014 #180

The answer is in the OP: JoeyT Mar 2014 #16

I see the point. Back in the old times people did not visit newborns thereismore Mar 2014 #29

Babies got measles in the past; it's not something new. LeftishBrit Mar 2014 #61

And people who could afford to do it vacationed in the country all summer to avoid disease. LeftyMom Mar 2014 #87

Interesting point about SheilaT Mar 2014 #108

1st measles vaccination is at 12 mos. Barack_America Mar 2014 #187

It's not about people who get vaccines versus anti-vaxxers. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #37

Also in the third category - Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #103

I don't think it usually does LeftishBrit Mar 2014 #113

I wasn't including them in the third category. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #116

The vaccines don't work for everyone. Mariana Mar 2014 #41

^ Bingo! +infinity (nt) LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #50

Also babies too young to be vaccinated are at risk. LeftishBrit Mar 2014 #63

I'd rather take something that was 99.9999999999% effective Arkana Mar 2014 #127

The poster wondered why vaccinated people are concerned. Mariana Mar 2014 #147

and for them the herd immunity would be helpful....right? Sheepshank Mar 2014 #240

Why are anti-vaccers more scared of non-proven, theoretical threats than in Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #135

Because they have never seen the result enlightenment Mar 2014 #186

Very, very well articulated analysis. Ignorance kills. nt Hekate Mar 2014 #191

Fucking morons. (n/t) Iggo Mar 2014 #7

And ABC put one of the worst of this bunch on a top-rated show. Archae Mar 2014 #9

McCarthy is a piece of work warrant46 Mar 2014 #62

If McCarthy was ignorant, she'd have an excuse. Archae Mar 2014 #81

+1 Awesome warrant46 Mar 2014 #84

We've got 13 cases of mumps on the campus. sinkingfeeling Mar 2014 #10

My mom, dad and all of us kids had the measles at the same time nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #12

I had measles, mumps and chicken pox, not at the same time. Lived to tell. nt thereismore Mar 2014 #27

No mumps here but a friend of ours brought her son over so he could catch the measles from us Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #32

Measles, mumps, pipi_k Mar 2014 #66

I almost didn't Spirochete Mar 2014 #142

You understand the difference between an anecdote and the scientific method, right? nt stevenleser Mar 2014 #179

Of course. My story is an anecdote but a true one. nt thereismore Mar 2014 #238

anecdotes are not lies...they are statistically useless. n/t Sheepshank Mar 2014 #241

Perhaps to you. I am not a statistic, so it's not useless to me. nt thereismore Mar 2014 #244

Some religious groups believe vaccinations are evil and dangerous. lumpy Mar 2014 #13

Some religious groups are fucking idiots...nt SidDithers Mar 2014 #24

What he said. nt thereismore Mar 2014 #31

That is why religious exemptions need to go away Warpy Mar 2014 #34

They sure are pipi_k Mar 2014 #68

Two points Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2014 #228

Two points Warpy Mar 2014 #233

1. Prove it Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2014 #237

Some? Codeine Mar 2014 #35

+1 Rex Mar 2014 #45

+2 SunSeeker Mar 2014 #64

All* Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #73

Well, I didn't want to be too nasty... SidDithers Mar 2014 #77

I'd replace "Some" with "All" Gore1FL Mar 2014 #111

Those religious groups need their heads examined. Arkana Mar 2014 #128

polio is merely reacting to offensive moves made by Big Vax and corporate elites functioning_cog Mar 2014 #14

Oh sh... Xyzse Mar 2014 #17

Conflating those who are not vaccinated with "vaccine deniers" is dishonest. KittyWampus Mar 2014 #18

That happened to me when I entered college as an adult - doctor didn't note in my chart that Hestia Mar 2014 #162

This is from Ontario, but I think it applies here: hedgehog Mar 2014 #19

Been through 2 measles outbreaks in Florida schools HockeyMom Mar 2014 #20

Carriers? NOT POSSIBLE Warpy Mar 2014 #33

What about Typhoid Mary? She never had but sure as hell spread it. It *can* happen n/t Hestia Mar 2014 #163

That was a full blown virus, not a killed or attenuated one Warpy Mar 2014 #185

That's an idiotic choice. sybylla Mar 2014 #123

I can walk, had children, HockeyMom Mar 2014 #154

Good for you! I guess you must be genetically superior! Barack_America Mar 2014 #193

no, you won't give your own bodies a chance HockeyMom Mar 2014 #195

Sister of a high school classmate of mine got mumps encephalitis and was left blind and crippled... Hekate Mar 2014 #199

If you are vacinated what do you have to worry about? dilby Mar 2014 #22

Nope, they are putting many of their fellow citizens at risk: cpwm17 Mar 2014 #25

You know, a friend of mine is quite adamant about adults never touching a child less than 6 months Hestia Mar 2014 #164

One should worry about the social environment. I can be immune and still have concern for others.. yawnmaster Mar 2014 #36

No vaccine is 100% effective. Mariana Mar 2014 #44

Herd immunity Marrah_G Mar 2014 #56

Vaccines are a good deal less than 100%... no vaxxers create a vector for disease to spread JCMach1 Mar 2014 #69

Having had the disease gives more immunity than a vaccine HockeyMom Mar 2014 #79

Getting the disease can also kill you dead... I nearly died from Chicken Pox at 22 JCMach1 Mar 2014 #89

Not to mention the risk of developing awesome shingles! Barack_America Mar 2014 #194

My mom had a case of shingles that went into Ramsay Hunt Syndrome JCMach1 Mar 2014 #235

No; immunity can go down after having the diseases too LeftishBrit Mar 2014 #114

I was vaccinated, and I got measles anyway in Jr. High. MNBrewer Mar 2014 #70

you are one of the 2 or 3 %. The measles vaccine is very effective. eom yawnmaster Mar 2014 #90

From what I remember, there was a cohort to whom that occurred more frequently MNBrewer Mar 2014 #100

That's why a booster is now recommended. Barack_America Mar 2014 #181

Were you born around 1966? Mariana Mar 2014 #216

1965 MNBrewer Mar 2014 #222

Unvaccinated children didn't get a choice. sybylla Mar 2014 #126

Because I'm not a "Fuck you, got mine" asshole and I care about the welfare Arkana Mar 2014 #130

Uhh, also, it takes awhile for babies/toddlers/kids to get all their vaccinations. Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #137

Scientific Materialists think vaccines make good public health policy... SidDithers Mar 2014 #23

your ignorance regarding what scientific materialism actually means should be embarrassing. KittyWampus Mar 2014 #48

I assume assumptions about assumptions being made? fleabiscuit Mar 2014 #106

I would NOT punch Jenny McCarthy in the snot locker if I met her on the street ... 11 Bravo Mar 2014 #26

I'm kind of curious as to who was actually spreading measles in NYC. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #39

That's an interesting question zappaman Mar 2014 #42

You would think it would be common sense to get vaccinated Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #144

Could be adults who didn't get boosters jeff47 Mar 2014 #117

Do they count as "anti-vaxxers"? Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #131

Ah yes, on to the desperate defense. jeff47 Mar 2014 #138

You seem to be reading an awful lot into my post that isn't there. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #141

Boosters every TEN YEARS? HockeyMom Mar 2014 #156

You have a link to that? Hippo_Tron Mar 2014 #160

Said the wrong vaccine. Meant DTaP. (nt) jeff47 Mar 2014 #218

Does that include people who had it? Or is it both groups? Interesting... Hestia Mar 2014 #165

Said the wrong vaccine. Meant DTaP. (nt) jeff47 Mar 2014 #219

and later measles patients can develop shingles catrose Mar 2014 #49

I think that's the chicken pox virus, not the measles virus... SidDithers Mar 2014 #51

you're right. sorry catrose Mar 2014 #53

My Father got shingles about four years ago after back surgery. Fuddnik Mar 2014 #109

Yeah, I haven't heard anything good about shingles... SidDithers Mar 2014 #110

The very small are paying a heavy price for the very stupid Mikeystyle Mar 2014 #52

Exactly! sybylla Mar 2014 #129

Major Kick defacto7 Mar 2014 #54

I hope the anti-vaccers never have to know what life was like before vaccines Marrah_G Mar 2014 #55

That would be me HockeyMom Mar 2014 #71

Scarlet Fever? Really? lapislzi Mar 2014 #94

I was given no antibiotics HockeyMom Mar 2014 #97

Aspirin's good for fever but does nothing to treat the (treatable) infection lapislzi Mar 2014 #99

My kids in the 80s got strep a LOT HockeyMom Mar 2014 #104

You raise some good points lapislzi Mar 2014 #105

You are the exception who thinks that she proves the rule. Orrex Mar 2014 #224

I knew a mom (10 yrs ago), who would not give her 5 year old son antibiotics for strep Sheepshank Mar 2014 #242

I had Scarlet Fever twice in the early 70's sybylla Mar 2014 #136

My brother and I both had scarlet fever when we were 2 and 4. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #146

Bully for you. My baby sister's health was badly compromised .... Hekate Mar 2014 #189

This Is What Gets Me: Those Who Preach Anti-Vax Yet Pay No Taxes tea and oranges Mar 2014 #57

First of all, your post is flame-bait, and based on hysteria. loudsue Mar 2014 #58

Los Angeles zappaman Mar 2014 #59

See? I think that's bullshit. Chaves is helping to cause the hysteria. loudsue Mar 2014 #80

Ok zappaman Mar 2014 #86

The problem is people think vaccinations are only for children. jeff47 Mar 2014 #119

The truth is strong in your post dbackjon Mar 2014 #60

I find it palpably ironic that many who chide 'climate deniers' won't vaccinate their kids. ColesCountyDem Mar 2014 #72

In the Ancestral Argot; riqster Mar 2014 #74

K&R Jamastiene Mar 2014 #76

Many states allow Religious objections to vaccinations HockeyMom Mar 2014 #78

Every anti-vaxxer I've ever talked to Ratty Mar 2014 #83

Hey, I believe 911 was an inside job and I am vaccinated. elias7 Mar 2014 #92

This is so sad, the fear some created and now the blowback. n/t Jefferson23 Mar 2014 #96

Is it possible it mutated? n/t Holly_Hobby Mar 2014 #98

The article at the link has no information about who is getting measles. former9thward Mar 2014 #112

+1 Gormy Cuss Mar 2014 #118

The problem is anti-vaxxers break herd immunity. jeff47 Mar 2014 #120

Do immigrants break herd immunity? former9thward Mar 2014 #122

No, because they are not a large enough portion of the population. jeff47 Mar 2014 #125

You can get a blood test to check your antibody levels. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #148

Immigrants who want a visa have to be vaccinated. X_Digger Mar 2014 #196

Yes, but we know there are X amount here without a visa. former9thward Mar 2014 #201

My own kids, HockeyMom Mar 2014 #157

And if you "believe" in vaccines jeff47 Mar 2014 #121

I got tested for antibody levels. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #150

Where are you getting that? Sgent Mar 2014 #167

Doh! Meant DTaP. (nt) jeff47 Mar 2014 #217

They should be quarantined and confined to their house until they vaccinate on point Mar 2014 #149

Internment camps would be even better. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #230

Quarantine is within exsiting health law and practice. Not sure I lke the sound of internment camps on point Mar 2014 #232

Interesting conclusions made.... Chakaconcarne Mar 2014 #153

Couple days ago I took my child in. All vaccinations up to date for 7 more years now. eom PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #161

Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #168

"doesn't protect aganist anything?" WTF are you going on about? arcane1 Mar 2014 #169

It's our returning champion. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #171

Wow, that was fast! arcane1 Mar 2014 #172

Yes it is. Sometimes she tries to hide it but other times she doesn't. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #173

Oh my! hrmjustin Mar 2014 #170

Geez...somebody needs to get a life! Rex Mar 2014 #174

She should learn to give it up. she gets a few posts on a day then she gets nuked. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #175

Seriously, all that effort wasted on this one time ticket called life. Rex Mar 2014 #176

Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #206

Ignorance is no excuse. Ignorance kills. Hekate Mar 2014 #177

Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #214

I remember getting measles as a kid. I guess they didn't vaccinate for it back then, because valerief Mar 2014 #182

Pro-vaccination -or- bat-shit crazy. The only two positions on this issue. Barack_America Mar 2014 #188

What about those of us who get bad reactions to vaccines? MillennialDem Mar 2014 #198

You can ask your doctor or the Health Dept about alternative preparations. Horse serum... Hekate Mar 2014 #200

Asked the last doctor who gave me a tetanus shot if there was an alternate MillennialDem Mar 2014 #207

Well crap, I'd be pissed off too. You might check around anyway, go over her head as it were. Hekate Mar 2014 #209

Thankfully she is not my normal doctor it was after I was injured MillennialDem Mar 2014 #210

There's a nasal flu vaccine, fyi. nt msanthrope Mar 2014 #231

broad swipe.. Chakaconcarne Mar 2014 #245

Let me give you all a lesson about what natural immunity is all about HockeyMom Mar 2014 #197

Public Health is all about the numbers, HockeyMom. I applaud your vigor, but not everyone is you. Hekate Mar 2014 #203

Me and my family must be part of the SUPER RACE HockeyMom Mar 2014 #204

Just appreciate your personal good luck and realize that not everyone has it, okay? Hekate Mar 2014 #208

Fine, but One Size Does Not Fit All HockeyMom Mar 2014 #211

Kinda what I said in my last post. Take "yes" for an answer. Hekate Mar 2014 #212

Says the PRO-Smoking DUer. LOL. nt Logical Mar 2014 #220

you do realize that many illnesses can cause fever and vomiting etc? Sheepshank Mar 2014 #243

see antigenic sin...flu vaccine in particular. Chakaconcarne Mar 2014 #246

Ugh. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #205

Teeny tiny baby coffins. rug Mar 2014 #215

Back in the late 70s I took an Environmental avebury Mar 2014 #225

One comment and one question? Shandris Mar 2014 #234

yawn Puzzledtraveller Mar 2014 #236