General Discussion

ProSense

(116,464 posts)

35. Sure

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 09:19 PM

Mar 2014

"I do believe that today's referendum was hugely, 80+%, in favour of a certain outcome."

...if you support an illegal action controlled by Russia. If Putin wanted this to be on the up and up, he wouldn't have forced a vote at gunpoint via an illegal referendum, and then shut out election observers.

Also, Obama didn't invade Iraq.

"A hypocrite might not, for example, distinguish statements emanating from Pres. Obama and SoS Kerry, from some shill's projections about what fictional posters might say on DU. A hypocrite like that might even claim that Russia is conducting an illegal invasion - and that it didn't just lay the ground for a democratic referendum. Well.... such folk can be exasperating, that's for certain."

I take it you don't believe that Putin's invasion is illegal? Isn't it hypocritical to think Bush's invasion was illegal, but not Putin's?

Do you think the OP piece, which states that Putin's actions were illegal is a "shill's projections"?

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Time for Realism and Common Sense on Ukraine [View all] mazzarro Mar 2014 OP

Excellent editorial malaise Mar 2014 #1

Excellent, but with one glaring problem. MattSh Mar 2014 #122

I'm really disappointed by Obama and Kerry's overblown rhetoric. It's been so off the mark. reformist2 Mar 2014 #2

Do you have any criticisms of Russia's handling of this? Nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #3

it's not surprising, given the circumstances magical thyme Mar 2014 #7

One could point out that given Russia's aggression towards geek tragedy Mar 2014 #10

NATO is an expansionist, explicitly anti-Russian military empire cprise Mar 2014 #21

I disagree. But let's explore that. The invasion of Crimea has strengthened NATO and stevenleser Mar 2014 #33

The other (ex)Warsaw pact countries aren't so close to Moscow cprise Mar 2014 #53

To varying degrees, but they certainly wont be close now, will they? Even Serbia is embarrassed stevenleser Mar 2014 #66

Probably not a big deal to Russians. Serbia was never part of Russia, nor USSR. cprise Mar 2014 #78

It's a big deal to Russia. Serbian and Russian nationalists have historically been very close. stevenleser Mar 2014 #88

NATO seems like an awfully good deal to countries geek tragedy Mar 2014 #36

If they imagine themselves like Poland, with a military economic boost. cprise Mar 2014 #62

If that meant that the days of Russia's bullying were over, I doubt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #68

That doesn't mean they are "left alone" by everyone cprise Mar 2014 #80

Greece's problems are largely home grown. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #83

Or Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Iceland, etc. cprise Mar 2014 #99

unlike the US, who consistently shows aggression toward our "non next-door neighbors" magical thyme Mar 2014 #131

I don't disagree. nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #132

^This! 1000+! 2banon Mar 2014 #109

I am gratefull for their restraint, considering the recent example we have set on the world stage. T. J. Kong Mar 2014 #91

Ok, so your only objection was that Russia didn't meddle geek tragedy Mar 2014 #93

I'm sorry, but I think you responded to the wrong post. T. J. Kong Mar 2014 #95

Nope. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #96

Right T. J. Kong Mar 2014 #102

Yes, you're essentially a partisan on Russia's side, with the only objection geek tragedy Mar 2014 #104

Actually T. J. Kong Mar 2014 #105

Your mission here is obviously to troll DUers with insinuation and name-calling cprise Mar 2014 #135

Shots fired by Russia: muriel_volestrangler Mar 2014 #123

Sounds like an isolated incident (OSCE)... and Ukranian military cprise Mar 2014 #136

It was not a border muriel_volestrangler Mar 2014 #146

That was *after* murderous insurgents took over the govt cprise Mar 2014 #147

I agree. I find their "tough talk" all rather embarrassing. scarletwoman Mar 2014 #5

yep. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #11

The editorial states ProSense Mar 2014 #13

From the same paragraph: scarletwoman Mar 2014 #17

Like I said, ProSense Mar 2014 #19

So, in a nutshell: hypocrites don't give a flying fuck about the blatancy of their hypocrisy. nt delrem Mar 2014 #23

Yes, ProSense Mar 2014 #26

I do believe that today's referendum was hugely, 80+%, in favour of a certain outcome. delrem Mar 2014 #31

Sure ProSense Mar 2014 #35

ah. I see. Putin forced the vote at gunpoint. delrem Mar 2014 #40

No, ProSense Mar 2014 #48

OK, I'll try to bring a little sense to this. delrem Mar 2014 #77

By posting nonsense? n/t ProSense Mar 2014 #79

Its more like schizophrenia than taboo. n/t cprise Mar 2014 #117

I think that it's a fully conscious taboo. delrem Mar 2014 #120

"Why would anyone want to be on the side of justifying an illegal invasion? " Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #57

You ask her. ProSense Mar 2014 #60

Depends on whether one considers the "regime change" legal cprise Mar 2014 #90

Oh, they're all about comdemning President Obama and PUmping up Putin.. Cha Mar 2014 #25

Pointing out that Putin is protecting his own interests is merely a fact,not a value judgement. scarletwoman Mar 2014 #34

"Putin justifies the invasion as necessary to protect Russian citizens...but this is a fig leaf." ProSense Mar 2014 #51

The real reason IS protecting Russia's interests. And Russia most certainly deemed it necessary. scarletwoman Mar 2014 #69

"World powers will always find excuses for their actions, why should Russia be any different?" ProSense Mar 2014 #73

Oh for cripessakes! I said "protecting Russian citizens" was an excuse. scarletwoman Mar 2014 #89

None of it justifies Putin's illegal invasion. n/t ProSense Mar 2014 #97

I was never trying to justify it in the 1st place, only pointing out why Putin would justify it. nt scarletwoman Mar 2014 #103

Everyone knows why Putin would "justify it" ProSense Mar 2014 #106

Really? Pointing out that Black Sea access is important to Russia is "pushing his propaganda"? scarletwoman Mar 2014 #110

+10000 tsuki Mar 2014 #112

Is "pointing out that Black Sea access is important to Russia" justification for the invasion? ProSense Mar 2014 #127

+1000 cprise Mar 2014 #101

WTH? n/t ProSense Mar 2014 #107

FYI cprise Mar 2014 #115

Yes, how touching.. a dictator protecting his own aggressive interests. Cha Mar 2014 #64

C'mon, Cha. I believe you're a good-hearted person. Why are you pulling this shit? scarletwoman Mar 2014 #100

Don't forget Putin is stopping the next Hitler. (nt) jeff47 Mar 2014 #133

Readout of the President's Call with Putin.. Cha Mar 2014 #28

Of course nothing Putin said is reported. former9thward Mar 2014 #41

It was a message left on Putin's voicemail. scarletwoman Mar 2014 #47

Well, he went ahead and brought up other recent, sucessful independent referendums, which isn't fair T. J. Kong Mar 2014 #121

non violent Duckhunter935 Mar 2014 #126

And it's really that simple malaise Mar 2014 #16

Great point! scarletwoman Mar 2014 #20

The Falklands have never been part of Argentina which geek tragedy Mar 2014 #38

Nice you take the position of the British monarchy. former9thward Mar 2014 #42

No, I take the position of the rest of the planet. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #46

Okay then! Since Crimea WAS, at one time, a part of Russia, then you shouldn't have any objections scarletwoman Mar 2014 #50

Taking back by force, no. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #56

Your definition of the "rest of the planet" is rather limited. former9thward Mar 2014 #61

The rightwing dictatorships in Latin America backed up the military geek tragedy Mar 2014 #70

And you are backing a right wing government in Ukraine, today. former9thward Mar 2014 #72

Rightwing? It's an interim government until May and contains geek tragedy Mar 2014 #75

Ha, still no authorities in US have so much as slapped the wrist cprise Mar 2014 #114

No one here is scared of Putin as a threat to us. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #116

I do care that a lot of hysteria is distracting people cprise Mar 2014 #118

"The CIA has put the US Senate under surveillance" geek tragedy Mar 2014 #119

"those who defend rt.com have zero standing" cprise Mar 2014 #144

+1. It's embarrassing to see Obama try and lecture about territorial borders. Uh, Mr. President, quinnox Mar 2014 #8

+1 840high Mar 2014 #74

Yes, it's all about President Obama and SOS Kerry.. Nothing about Poor Putin's Aggression? Cha Mar 2014 #22

Great editorial! Many good points made - people should go read the whole thing. scarletwoman Mar 2014 #4

Thanks for this-I think we're doing okay so far, but babylonsister Mar 2014 #6

Interesting ProSense Mar 2014 #9

"Crimea referendum are illegal" zeemike Mar 2014 #12

Spare me. The editorial made that point. n/t ProSense Mar 2014 #14

No. Igel Mar 2014 #18

Your knowledge of what is happening in the Crimea referendum is remarkable. zeemike Mar 2014 #27

So suddenly parlaiment votes Yanukovych out of office while armed insurgents cprise Mar 2014 #29

Right, Putin cares about democracy and self-determination. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #30

Well pardon me. zeemike Mar 2014 #39

Well, those who side with Putin, and Assad, and Gaddhafi etc when they're geek tragedy Mar 2014 #43

When I criticize Obama it is for what he does or does not do. zeemike Mar 2014 #59

There are people who NEVER side with the US if it's in a dispute geek tragedy Mar 2014 #63

Well perhaps that is because they don't think we should be having zeemike Mar 2014 #76

Sure, that's called isolationism. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #81

And what nation is against us? zeemike Mar 2014 #86

As I said, what you advocate is isolationism. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #87

And under yours we were wrong not to invade Syria. zeemike Mar 2014 #92

That is binary thinking. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #94

Well glad you reject binary thinking. zeemike Mar 2014 #130

Oh spare me already. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #45

Well I believe in that saying zeemike Mar 2014 #67

Iraq and Afghanistan were the last guy. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #71

Well that is why we always have to look forward zeemike Mar 2014 #84

You've got to be joking. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #124

Well this is not a conflict between Obama and Putin. zeemike Mar 2014 #128

Wait, the Russian language is illegal in Ukraine now? NuclearDem Mar 2014 #129

Right.. Puppets for Putin are getting more and more bizarre.. Cha Mar 2014 #44

Cool, that's my alma mater davidpdx Mar 2014 #125

well, much of that has been obvious from the beginning stupidicus Mar 2014 #15

Rove Claims GWB Sent 'Strong Message' To Putin After Georgia Invasion - lol T. J. Kong Mar 2014 #24

“Russia – the only country in the world, capable of transforming the U.S. into radioactive ash" stevenleser Mar 2014 #32

This Pity for Putin Party is bizarre, Steven.. The lengths some will Cha Mar 2014 #49

I don't see this editorial is scolding anyone other than Republican neo-cons ConservativeDemocrat Mar 2014 #52

Anyone who saber-rattles is dumb, but the focus should be on Russia and their invasion. Not the stevenleser Mar 2014 #65

You would think.. the USA's response is commensurate to Putin's Invasion. Cha Mar 2014 #85

You know, the OP simply posted an editorial from The Nation and said he agreed with it. scarletwoman Mar 2014 #54

^This! 1000+! 2banon Mar 2014 #137

The "USA into RadioActive Dust"guy was recently chosen by Putin to lead an official news agency.. Cha Mar 2014 #58

Why do you give any weight of importance to that flame bating b.s.? 2banon Mar 2014 #138

See Cha's #58 above. nt stevenleser Mar 2014 #139

no can see 2banon Mar 2014 #140

Well, that person shared an important piece of information. The media person who said this was stevenleser Mar 2014 #141

Under the circumstances, that kind of thing is predictable and doesn't concern me. 2banon Mar 2014 #142

There is very little chest thumping by anyone here. nt stevenleser Mar 2014 #143

Okay.. Cha Mar 2014 #37

Because right-wing terrorists make for a good voting environment. n/t cprise Mar 2014 #145

wow, happy to rec this.... mike_c Mar 2014 #55

Do you agree that Putin's actions were a "clear violation of international law"? ProSense Mar 2014 #82

But..but...Looking Tough and screaming Bogeyman is ever so much easier. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #98

K&R'd 2banon Mar 2014 #108

Time to mind our own business and stay out of their clusterfuck jsr Mar 2014 #111

Yes, when a child is attacked by bullies, it's best to just walk away. (nt) jeff47 Mar 2014 #134

Always remember that when it comes to foreign policy... Scootaloo Mar 2014 #113

Excellent. woo me with science Mar 2014 #148