General Discussion

petronius

(26,700 posts)

206. I do think you're mistaken, and it's not about "leading the cafeteria in grace" or doing things

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 02:43 AM

Mar 2014

that other clubs don't get to do. Rather, every student-run and student-initiated club is entitled to the same access to school facilities during non-instructional time (which includes lunch, if the school allows other clubs to be active at lunch).

Here's a link to the law itself: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/20/4071

And my quick googling suggests that the ACLU does take cases and positions in this topic area:

https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/aclu-ma-defends-students-punished-distributing-candy-canes-religious-messages
https://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/aclu-supports-right-iowa-students-distribute-christian-literature-school
https://aclu-wa.org/library_files/Guide%20for%20Public%20School%20Students.pdf

The club described in the OP may have a religious underpinning, and it may advocate an abhorrent position, but it is entitled to be treated the same as all other non-curricular clubs...

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Life-sized fetus causes cafeteria controversy at Connecticut school [View all] The Straight Story Mar 2014 OP

What the hell? shenmue Mar 2014 #1

I looked at the video and my main concerns are the editorializing, false info and the enlarged photo uppityperson Mar 2014 #107

I think she should be allowed to do this. CaliforniaPeggy Mar 2014 #2

It does seem scientifically accurate (nt) The Straight Story Mar 2014 #3

It sure does. CaliforniaPeggy Mar 2014 #4

I don't think the lunch room is the place for that. Ilsa Mar 2014 #7

I think it's fine. CaliforniaPeggy Mar 2014 #8

Not every moment is a teaching moment. Ilsa Mar 2014 #13

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. I don't agree. CaliforniaPeggy Mar 2014 #15

Sure, put a display of the human intestinal system on Ilsa Mar 2014 #24

Is there a school club that covers that? The Straight Story Mar 2014 #25

It's just another Science Project, like other science projects Ilsa Mar 2014 #27

According to the article it was based on a school club doing what other clubs did The Straight Story Mar 2014 #29

How many school clubs put plastic replicas of body parts in the lunchroom at noontime? jmowreader Mar 2014 #39

If the school let them have a club than the rules should be the same: The Straight Story Mar 2014 #44

Does the First Amendment give you the right to fuck up someone's lunch? jmowreader Mar 2014 #46

Cafeterias are huge places with four walls and no one who will be "fucked up" pnwmom Mar 2014 #53

Less than 1200 enrollment, I doubt the cafeteria is huge. mbperrin Mar 2014 #134

It would be easy to avoid a display in the room you describe if the tables were on the opposite pnwmom Mar 2014 #139

This is Texas. It is against the law to teach anything other than mbperrin Mar 2014 #238

You've got to be kidding. Even in an abstinence class, they teach pnwmom Mar 2014 #239

Well, here's the link from this fall, this current school year. mbperrin Mar 2014 #250

Reading that was a waste of time. Your article doesn't say anything about what is taught pnwmom Mar 2014 #254

And now, I wish you a good evening. mbperrin Mar 2014 #251

"Abstinence-only" has nothing to do with banning pictures of fetuses. pnwmom Mar 2014 #255

How would it mess up someone's lunch? The Straight Story Mar 2014 #136

These girls do NOT want to do what everyone else does. mbperrin Mar 2014 #132

These are 14 - 18 year old "children" who have almost certainly seen picture of fetuses before. pnwmom Mar 2014 #151

If it is a replica of an embryo or fetus, there is nothing disgusting about it. Chemisse Mar 2014 #116

I watched the whole video. There were just the standard photos of fetuses at various pnwmom Mar 2014 #152

Why didn't I think of that back in high school?!?!! hatrack Mar 2014 #253

So should the "gun club" be allowed to bring in demonstrations of their stuff? madinmaryland Mar 2014 #57

So guns = babies? Or do we just like to silence dissenting views? (nt) The Straight Story Mar 2014 #60

So fetuses = babies? Telling. nt uppityperson Mar 2014 #62

+1 !! lunasun Mar 2014 #133

This isn't about babies. Ilsa Mar 2014 #67

It is about a school sanctioned club having the same rights other clubs have The Straight Story Mar 2014 #73

Yes, they get to promote their agenda no matter Ilsa Mar 2014 #78

It's political propaganda. So are you anti-choice then? cui bono Mar 2014 #157

It is not about that issue The Straight Story Mar 2014 #183

It is absolutely about this issue. It's an anti-choice club, which by definition has a political cui bono Mar 2014 #191

So now folks who are not pro-choice equal arayan nation? The Straight Story Mar 2014 #198

That's not what I said. Incorrect conclusion. cui bono Mar 2014 #204

So, in your view, it has to be religious based? The Straight Story Mar 2014 #205

Even if it's not religious based, though in all probability it is but we don't know that for a fact, cui bono Mar 2014 #207

So don't discuss political issues in a school? The Straight Story Mar 2014 #209

I don't think so. There are other places for that. cui bono Mar 2014 #216

Finally, someone who's being honest. This isn't really about adults thinking images pnwmom Mar 2014 #156

There is no silencing of dissent. The issue is you have adults (18) who are finishing up madinmaryland Mar 2014 #99

What on earth is "nasty" about images of normal fetuses? pnwmom Mar 2014 #163

Why is the pro-life club like the gun club? I don't get the connection at all. pnwmom Mar 2014 #154

Anti-capital punishment club Brainstormy Mar 2014 #228

Funny that there isn't, though. kcr Mar 2014 #28

The people in the anti-abortion club say other groups were allowed to set up displays jmowreader Mar 2014 #141

Yep. I noticed there wasn't any mention of the other groups specifically kcr Mar 2014 #166

I assume you're not really comparing a fetus to a pile of human waste, are you? nt pnwmom Mar 2014 #26

No, I'm comparing biology lessons. Ilsa Mar 2014 #32

When I was at school, our Biology teacher knitted a model of the alimentary canal... LeftishBrit Mar 2014 #68

LOL. That's funny. I wonder if it was Ilsa Mar 2014 #70

Why are condoms a different matter? enlightenment Mar 2014 #20

How are condoms a different matter? This type display, with "blown up images" is meant to not only uppityperson Mar 2014 #52

She is doing this to propagandize, not to educate. cui bono Mar 2014 #153

The same people who push this are also against birth control. HERVEPA Mar 2014 #9

But there is nothing religious here. CaliforniaPeggy Mar 2014 #11

Pro life, California Peggy. How is that better than a stand against birth control? kcr Mar 2014 #21

If you think there is nothing religious here Peggy, you are extremely naive. HERVEPA Mar 2014 #66

Really? Pressing the pro-life agenda on them while they're eating? kcr Mar 2014 #10

Maybe you can, but you're not the one with the display. CaliforniaPeggy Mar 2014 #12

What does that have to do with anything? kcr Mar 2014 #16

so you're anti-choice then? cui bono Mar 2014 #158

Did I say that? No, I didn't. I am very pro-choice. n/t CaliforniaPeggy Mar 2014 #161

Well you are defending anti-choice propaganda in schools. cui bono Mar 2014 #162

Can you really not distinguish between those two things? Do I have to quote Voltaire at you? N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2014 #241

What two things? n/t cui bono Mar 2014 #244

Supporting something, and supporting the right to advocate for it. Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2014 #262

But we're talking about students at a public school. cui bono Mar 2014 #264

Plenty of schools have lunch room displays The Straight Story Mar 2014 #14

So? kcr Mar 2014 #17

According to the article: The Straight Story Mar 2014 #18

Yes, I do. kcr Mar 2014 #19

Displaying a fetus isn't the same thing as proselytizing an agenda. pnwmom Mar 2014 #30

Are more and more people nowadays forgetting what context is? kcr Mar 2014 #35

No. But part of the context is that in the US, we have a right to free speech. pnwmom Mar 2014 #164

Not in our public schools kcr Mar 2014 #167

Why not? What do you have against Planned Parenthood? pnwmom Mar 2014 #170

What does Planned Parenthood have to do with it? kcr Mar 2014 #172

Oh I get it. You responded to a post you didn't bother to read. pnwmom Mar 2014 #175

I read your posts, so I don't know what you're talking about. kcr Mar 2014 #176

This is what I said: pnwmom Mar 2014 #180

And that is beyond ridiculous kcr Mar 2014 #182

The school allows other groups and individuals to set up tables. pnwmom Mar 2014 #187

I don't give a flying fig what the ACLU thinks about it. kcr Mar 2014 #188

So the Aryan Nation should be able to set up a table at lunch time as well? cui bono Mar 2014 #173

And how about the context of having this in your face at meal time. Ilsa Mar 2014 #40

Cafeterias are large, noisy places with four walls. I don't think it needs to be in anyone's face. pnwmom Mar 2014 #42

Not all cafeterias are the same maddezmom Mar 2014 #97

My kids' elementary school had 400 students and 2 sittings. pnwmom Mar 2014 #149

"blown-up images of fetuses" is proselytizing an agenda. uppityperson Mar 2014 #54

Yes it is. Texasgal Mar 2014 #61

The images look like they were ripped from the pages of the book pnwmom Mar 2014 #165

It's an anti-choice club as indicated by their chosen club name. cui bono Mar 2014 #159

This is just another science exhibit? Pure Bullshit! HERVEPA Mar 2014 #79

Have you seen the exhibit? Here is a video that shows it The Straight Story Mar 2014 #87

I volunteer for Planned parenthood. I know this bullshit. Sell it somewhere else. HERVEPA Mar 2014 #93

After a quick look, lies. "Week 4, the baby's heart has a steady beat"? BS. uppityperson Mar 2014 #96

Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #267

Looked at the video. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #144

"Consequences of sexual activity" REP Mar 2014 #31

I was thinking it might actually promote the use of birth control. n/t pnwmom Mar 2014 #34

Don't you think that there is a better way to "promote the use of birth control"? blueamy66 Mar 2014 #215

Sure. But lots of things are legal (or should be) that aren't optimal. pnwmom Mar 2014 #218

What this "group" is doing is nowhere near optimal blueamy66 Mar 2014 #230

What is so bad about the "blown up images"? I showed the same basic pictures, pnwmom Mar 2014 #231

Okay, if the students have seen them already, why show them again? In the cafeteria? blueamy66 Mar 2014 #233

We still have freedom of speech in this country, last time I checked. pnwmom Mar 2014 #235

I don't believe that all freedoms translate into our public school system. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #236

Well, people going to Catholic school know that they don't have the same rights. pnwmom Mar 2014 #237

BUT, can't lockers be searched? blueamy66 Mar 2014 #242

Aren't we supposed to be progressives here? Not Authoritarian Central? pnwmom Mar 2014 #246

Let's pretend there is a White Power club. Should they be allowed to have displays in the cafeteria? uppityperson Mar 2014 #252

There should be exceptions for hate material, just as there are for adults in the workplace. pnwmom Mar 2014 #256

Ah, so you subjectively decide it is hate speech and so it is ok to deny them the right to free uppityperson Mar 2014 #259

Yes it does, but a 6 week embryo, done to scale, is not impressive. Warpy Mar 2014 #94

True but a loaded sentence.... alp227 Mar 2014 #265

My college roommate didn't like it when I left my fetal pig undeterred Mar 2014 #5

Real-life-sized blastocysts? Ilsa Mar 2014 #6

I don't want to see pix of a human fetus while I'm eating. KittyWampus Mar 2014 #22

Neither do I, and I'm a nurse. Ilsa Mar 2014 #23

What is disgusting about how a fetus looks? n/t pnwmom Mar 2014 #33

When I see fetuses, I have to also think about menstruation, Ilsa Mar 2014 #36

Maybe that's the problem. You're reading much more into it than the typical middle school student. pnwmom Mar 2014 #41

Maybe teens need to just have lunch with their Ilsa Mar 2014 #43

That's what almost all the teens will do. Cafeterias are huge spaces. pnwmom Mar 2014 #45

How do you know they can "easily avoid" it? Ilsa Mar 2014 #51

A teacher who would pressure them about this should face discipline, pnwmom Mar 2014 #56

I'm surprised you don't see this for what it is. Ilsa Mar 2014 #65

The answer to unpopular free speech is more free speech, not less of it. pnwmom Mar 2014 #72

And the answer to a polite society is to give people safe spaces where they aren't confronted KittyWampus Mar 2014 #74

I don't think fetuses are disgusting, as some people here have said. Is that what you think, too? pnwmom Mar 2014 #76

Good for you. Some of us do not want to be confronted with them while eating. GET IT? KittyWampus Mar 2014 #86

Then sit somewhere else. Cafeterias are big places. n/t pnwmom Mar 2014 #89

Some of those pictures were of dead fetuses. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #147

You mean "blown-up images of fetuses", not just something like a fetus. uppityperson Mar 2014 #85

Whatever that means. n/t pnwmom Mar 2014 #90

It means enlarged photos of fetuses and embryos. uppityperson Mar 2014 #98

I can speak as a former ten year old who first saw a human fetus in a jar pnwmom Mar 2014 #37

Yes, in a SCIENCE MUSEUM. mbperrin Mar 2014 #135

The OP says the girl was 17. Do you really think, based on your experience with adolescents, pnwmom Mar 2014 #137

Kids at that school are 14-18. Are you saying the person who made the display wasn't traumatized so uppityperson Mar 2014 #143

In my husband's 8th grade class of 30, there were 4 pregnancies. I think that by the time pnwmom Mar 2014 #145

Having worked a lot in reproductive health, including managing a Family Planning clinic, I agree uppityperson Mar 2014 #192

+1000. n/t pnwmom Mar 2014 #222

She needs to keep her goddamn religion out of school. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #38

No, she needs to be allowed the same access as every other group. 1awake Mar 2014 #47

I bet the ACLU would agree. That's why they're not always popular. pnwmom Mar 2014 #59

Yes, It took me some time years ago to realize that. nt 1awake Mar 2014 #102

You're not the supreme ruler. You don't get to end stories here. HERVEPA Mar 2014 #232

Yes, I am. nt 1awake Mar 2014 #240

"blown-up images of fetuses and real- life sized fetus models". This is what I have an issue with uppityperson Mar 2014 #48

One of the anti-choicers' favorite ploys Mariana Mar 2014 #104

Oooo, she has that doll next @ beginning, opposite the 1 week dot embryo uppityperson Mar 2014 #109

Put the OP told us up thread that this was scientifically accurate MattBaggins Mar 2014 #212

can i bring in the corpse of my wife who died @25 years ago dembotoz Mar 2014 #49

What other free speech should the government get to suppress? joeglow3 Mar 2014 #223

As an author I read recently put it on bringing up controversial topics in inappropriate settings : Brigid Mar 2014 #50

Exactly. Let them eat without having to think about contracepton. nt Ilsa Mar 2014 #55

Because partents use their children like cannon fodder in a religous war. nt pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #150

Agreed! Can I get an amen for that? justhanginon Mar 2014 #58

Maybe another student should set up a table displaying condoms and other forms of B.C. pnwmom Mar 2014 #63

What about those "blown-up images of fetuses"? uppityperson Mar 2014 #64

Supporting free speech means supporting the right to express unpopular opinions. pnwmom Mar 2014 #71

People should be allowed spaces without triggers staring them in the face. KittyWampus Mar 2014 #77

If they accidentally see a fetus, they can turn their faces away. As a former child who once pnwmom Mar 2014 #81

This club can find other graphics to advertise their existence. And you've already been told KittyWampus Mar 2014 #84

If you don't want to look at a fetus while you're eating, then take a seat away from the table. pnwmom Mar 2014 #88

Hell no MattBaggins Mar 2014 #213

The girl was at the table the school allowed her, until the school reacted to complaints. pnwmom Mar 2014 #224

Then you are ok with blown up graphic images of dead kids via the anti-war club. uppityperson Mar 2014 #83

No, I'm talking generic high school cafeteria. They're all large spaces with four walls. pnwmom Mar 2014 #91

Enlarged graphic photos of Abu Ghraib and blown up kids are ok for cafeteria viewing. uppityperson Mar 2014 #100

I came back to this thread to post the exact same thing. Would an anti-war club KittyWampus Mar 2014 #95

I would object to blown-up images of a bloody aborted fetus in the cafeteria. pnwmom Mar 2014 #101

"I think a high school anti-war club should be able to display whatever it wants to." uppityperson Mar 2014 #103

I changed my mind when I thought about it more. I'll revise. Thanks. pnwmom Mar 2014 #108

I think I would take my lunch outside... yuiyoshida Mar 2014 #69

This is an before/after-school activity...not a lunch-time feature. Tikki Mar 2014 #75

can the gardening club put up a compost display? magical thyme Mar 2014 #80

I would have absolutely no problem with blown up images or plastic replicas of compost. pnwmom Mar 2014 #82

Why do they even have a pro life club in high school any way? flying rabbit Mar 2014 #92

As long as their table includes... TeeYiYi Mar 2014 #105

People.. this board included.. are only interested in free speech when its theirs 1awake Mar 2014 #106

If the info they gave was accurate, not lies like "Week 4, the baby's heart has a steady beat" uppityperson Mar 2014 #110

Do we know this girl was pushing lies, or just assuming that? n/t pnwmom Mar 2014 #112

I copied it from what was written on her display. No assumption. uppityperson Mar 2014 #114

Then someone should set up another table with the correct information. pnwmom Mar 2014 #120

And then they could set up even more information! And then more tables... kcr Mar 2014 #130

Of course it is. What do you think free speech means? Only the cool kids get a table? n/t pnwmom Mar 2014 #219

No. In a public school free speech is not about allowing propaganda that is a bunch of lies cui bono Mar 2014 #189

What is wrong with the images that people here are so upset about? pnwmom Mar 2014 #220

No free speech is not about letting kids pass off inaccurate MattBaggins Mar 2014 #214

I didn't see anything in the article about inaccurate information. Did you? n/t pnwmom Mar 2014 #221

Ok, so have the principal tell her she is off by a week and change the wording The Straight Story Mar 2014 #117

I do not have access to where the images came from, nor could I clearly see uppityperson Mar 2014 #121

The heart forms at 5 weeks. And were they showing aborted fetuses? The Straight Story Mar 2014 #125

Week 5 "The brain, spinal cord, and heart begin to develop." There's no way it could beat at 4 weeks uppityperson Mar 2014 #129

To be fair Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #184

I didn't look that closely at them all, but giving inaccurate false "info" is wrong. uppityperson Mar 2014 #193

I can't help but wonder xfundy Mar 2014 #111

I have trouble seeing what the fuss is about, unless it's that people feel that this threatens pnwmom Mar 2014 #113

Did you look at the display? What is so disturbing about promoting lies to teens about reproduction uppityperson Mar 2014 #115

Why do you think I'm trying to limit YOUR freedom of speech? Does disagreeing with you pnwmom Mar 2014 #119

"So if you object to the content of her speech -- her anti-abortion views -- then you are objecting uppityperson Mar 2014 #122

You are objecting to her table being there because you're objecting to what she's saying. pnwmom Mar 2014 #124

She should be able to show this! Chemisse Mar 2014 #118

Except the written stuff by the embryonic/fetal display gives incorrect and misleading information. uppityperson Mar 2014 #123

What the hell? llmart Mar 2014 #126

And some good DU folks think there is an infinite amount Ilsa Mar 2014 #128

The pix of fetus-dollies I've seen are not that true-to-life for the first 4 months.... Hekate Mar 2014 #127

Couldn't they do both? I'm all for more birth control instruction/availability in the schools. pnwmom Mar 2014 #138

PP makes the RW froth at the mouth because tho less than 5% of what they do ... Hekate Mar 2014 #208

Free speech is curtailed in a school for good reasons: lindysalsagal Mar 2014 #131

Next they'll put up a factual display of creationism -nt pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #160

Athiests against abortion joeglow3 Mar 2014 #226

Then the anti-war group should be allowed to show bloody bodies, dead children and maybe pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #140

What is it you think they are showing? The Straight Story Mar 2014 #142

lol - science? Right because we know the pro-life groups are pro-science, besides what do you pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #146

Again, what do you think the pics show that they are displaying? (nt) The Straight Story Mar 2014 #148

in the interest of science - i should be allowed to display amputations from cluster munitions... pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #155

These aren't photos of fetuses that were dismembered in abortions. pnwmom Mar 2014 #178

If it's okay to show pictures of war torn bodies, then you would have to approve pictures pnwmom Mar 2014 #174

Yes, of course, I would approve pictures of bloody fetuses, that's exactly where your logic goes pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #197

No, the equivalent to THAT would be if the girl were trying to show pictures of pnwmom Mar 2014 #168

The best way to stop this shit dead in its tracks... pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #169

The pictures of the fetuses are non-violent. I think the best way to be equitable pnwmom Mar 2014 #171

You can just show the photos of those killed & injure by pro-lifers, nothing violent about that and pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #179

Did you watch the video? If anything, they looked too Disney. Not like dead fetuses. pnwmom Mar 2014 #185

Oh - so groups should pass a commitee approval for only cute posters? pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #190

No. I was agreeing with you about having posters of the victims of anti-abortion zealots. pnwmom Mar 2014 #227

Seriously. What the fuck is up with people defending this anti-choice political propaganda cui bono Mar 2014 #177

The new democrats... pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #195

It's true. I'm starting to not even recognize this board anymore. n/t Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #196

Great. that's the fifth new table in the cafeteria Ilsa Mar 2014 #211

I can't quite tell from the article if she was banned from having any table at all, petronius Mar 2014 #181

Ummmm The Straight Story Mar 2014 #186

How the school defines 'gory' and/or 'shock-content' doesn't really affect my petronius Mar 2014 #199

Threatens establishment clause of bill of rights. Cafeteria is not an optional place - pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #194

I suspect that would apply to school-sponsored religious activities, but all petronius Mar 2014 #200

but by that logic, they could hang prayers all over cafeteria and have a group grace each lunch.... pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #201

Isn't that what the Equal Access Act is all about? petronius Mar 2014 #202

not during normal school hours while involving the entire student population pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #203

I do think you're mistaken, and it's not about "leading the cafeteria in grace" or doing things petronius Mar 2014 #206

If that's the case then that's unfortunate kcr Mar 2014 #210

yikes, i did not think cafeteria time counted strictly as non-instructional time since students pragmatic_dem Mar 2014 #266

I watched the whole video. There was no shock-content material, no pictures pnwmom Mar 2014 #225

With inaccurate information by the embryos/fetuses. eom uppityperson Mar 2014 #243

A perfect teachable moment for the school. Too bad they blew it. n/t pnwmom Mar 2014 #245

Rather than "educate" at lunch, let the Health or whatever teacher give accurate info in class uppityperson Mar 2014 #247

Unless you're one of those progressives who think free speech is only for some people, pnwmom Mar 2014 #248

There are rules in schools that go beyond the outside world. Are you saying limiting displays in uppityperson Mar 2014 #249

I am saying that when the Supreme Court ruled that students don't have pnwmom Mar 2014 #257

The Supreme Court said it is ok to beat students and break bones? what? uppityperson Mar 2014 #258

There was a 9 year old Florida boy who sued after they accidentally broke his arm pnwmom Mar 2014 #260

Huh, I'd like to see more on that. maybe later will google, thanks. uppityperson Mar 2014 #261

bookmarks thread for Olive Garden/pitbull/breastfeeding status nt steve2470 Mar 2014 #217

I read the subject line and wondered, 'Why are they serving fetuses for lunch?' valerief Mar 2014 #229

They're not thinking BIG enuff! TheSarcastinator Mar 2014 #234

So a "pro-life" club wanted to set up a display in the cafe? Lunacee_2013 Mar 2014 #263