If I lived in Crimea, I would have voted to leave the Ukraine and join Russia.

[Gothmog]

157. I was not aware that this was a debate

I debated all through high school, a couple years on the college circuit and then judged college debate all during law school. Democratic Underground is not a debate board and I did not think that I was engaged in a debate with you. I am not advancing some academic argument here but I am trying to explain to you why I disagree with your assertions and the assertions of Putin since you are merely repeating Putin's talking points. In addition to my debate experience, I have been practicing law for a long time including numerous international transactions and a couple of litigation/arbitration matters. I found your attempt to explain a legal ruling to me to be inaccurate. I strongly disagree with the positions of Putin that you are advancing on this thread. Putin is wrong in his claims and the fact that you are repeating Putin's talking points does not change this fact.

If you read the material that I have posted, it is clear that the international community disagrees with Putin's and your claims or positions. International law is somewhat clear here that Putin is wrong about the legal effect of this referendum which means that your claims are also wrong. Here are some additional articles that discuss the legal concepts here http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/paul-linden-retek-evan-brewer/Crimea-justified-kosovo-ruling-icj-2008-russia-putin and http://www.voanews.com/content/crimea-referendum-illegitimate-says-us-legal-scholar/1873090.html As a matter of pure international law, Putin is simply wrong which is why the EU and other countries are not recognizing this election. There is a large difference between the recognition of a country by the international community and the annexation of a country by a rigged election.

Your claims fail here because they are based solely on the arguments being advanced by Putin. I personally doubt that even Putin believes his claims. If Putin really believes his legal arguments, then Putin would stop blocking Kosovo from joining the United Nations. Right now, Kosovo has been recognized by 111 nations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Kosovo

Kosovo's declaration of independence from Serbia was enacted on 17 February 2008.[1][2] International reaction was mixed, and the world community continues to be divided on the international recognition of Kosovo.

As of 11 February 2014, the Republic of Kosovo has received 110 diplomatic recognitions as an independent state. Notably, 108 out of 193 (56%) United Nations (UN) member states, 23 out of 28 (82%) European Union (EU) member states, 24 out of 28 (86%) NATO member states, and 35 out of 57 (61%) Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) member states have recognised Kosovo. The Government of Serbia does not recognise it as a sovereign state, but has begun to normalise relations with the government in Pristina in accordance with the Brussels Agreement.

Kosovo is being blocked from joining the UN by Russia http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/world/europe/17iht-kosovo.4.9299507.html?_r=0 If Putin really believes his own legal claim, then Russia would support the efforts of Kosovo to become a member of the UN.

Even Putin does not believe his claims. That is why he has 30,000 troops in Crimea and is massing more troops on the eastern borders of Ukraine. One does not need a good legal argument or to be right in their legal claims when they have an army



If you want to convince me of the merits of your arguments, please show me some real authority such as Putin's agreement to let Kosovo join the UN. You may also want to use some international law journals or similar sources (both of my older two children were editors at the international law journals at their law schools). So far you have not come close to convincing me as to your claims and my opinions here are not based on ignorance.