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Gothmog

(180,095 posts)

164. You can not divorce the legal or ethical issues

Thu Mar 20, 2014, 03:22 PM

Mar 2014

Self determination by itself is a great concept but that is not what happened here. Russian annexed this region over the objections of the legitimate government and in violation of international law. This vote was a farce that was done a gun point without any meaningful opportunity to dissent.

Your claim that western countries accept these votes when it is to our benefit is simply wrong and ignores the facts. The closest example cited by Putin and another poster on this board is Kosovo. The two situations are so different from each other that it is sad that anyone would consider them to applicable. The election in Kosovo was done under UN supervision and was based on ballot language sanctioned and approved by the international community. The sham election in Kosovo was done a gun point without international supervision based on ballot language that literally gave the voters no option to continue as part of Ukraine. As a lawyer who is very familiar with the law here, this election does not meet the standards that pass the smell test. The international community is correct to reject this fraudulent election.

Every western government is condemning this vote and the annexation of Crimea based on very well established principles of international law and common decency. The only real reason that this election was held was due to 30,000 russian troops who forced this election and even voted in the election.

I simply do not believe that this election is valid. The lawyer part of me can not accept the concept that the law does not matter. I am glad that the US is ordering new sanctions against Russia and I am glad that the EU and others are also stepping up the sanctions http://www.chron.com/news/politics/article/Obama-orders-new-round-of-sanctions-on-Russia-5334331.php?cmpid=hpbn

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If I lived in Crimea, I would have voted to leave the Ukraine and join Russia. [View all] reformist2 Mar 2014 OP

So does that mean you think that the secession of the Confederacy was justified, then? Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #1

Do you think the Declaration of Independence was an illegal document? reformist2 Mar 2014 #7

Apples and oranges. The Colonies did not have representation in the Monarchy of Britain berni_mccoy Mar 2014 #9

Was the secession of Kosovo legal? former9thward Mar 2014 #45

Right, Crimea was autonomous. They voted for what a majority of the people wanted, and that should sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #163

Much better question, thank you. Answer, to the British Empire it was a treasonous document. sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #81

There's a pretty fundamental difference between the Confederacy and Crimea. Xithras Mar 2014 #21

You do realize that your are making the OPs point, do you? redgreenandblue Mar 2014 #88

The way I look on it dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #2

And the flip of that is their imports of energy JustAnotherGen Mar 2014 #126

Pipe dream. dipsydoodle Mar 2014 #127

Oh I would agree JustAnotherGen Mar 2014 #128

There have been various counties in the U.S. Jenoch Mar 2014 #3

Actually, I do. 2banon Mar 2014 #14

Like the great state of Jefferson? Anansi1171 Mar 2014 #38

Huh? This isn't what I've suggested! 2banon Mar 2014 #70

Yes, it IS what you've suggested. And the fact that you can't see it doesn't speak too well of you, MADem Mar 2014 #152

...and the Russian troops were there to protect the integrity of the vote? brooklynite Mar 2014 #4

LOL Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #8

Do you seriously believe the vote doesn't reflect popular sentiment in Crimea? Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #36

Do we have reason to believe that it does? Proud Liberal Dem Mar 2014 #58

There are these opinions.. I posted this last night on someone's thread spouting Putin Cha Mar 2014 #107

COOKIES! MNBrewer Mar 2014 #5

And in the future if they decide it's a mistake and want Crimean independence... Bosonic Mar 2014 #6

Try pulling out of the EU. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #50

Are you imprisoned if you suggest it? Bosonic Mar 2014 #53

Not so far as I know, but give them time. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #57

So your point was ? Bosonic Mar 2014 #59

likely that its sort of like a roach motel Bodhi BloodWave Mar 2014 #108

Are the rumours that the IMF was going to demand strict austerity measures for the Ukraine true? djean111 Mar 2014 #10

Yes there are. 840high Mar 2014 #11

Yes, and the "going to" part is actually already obsolete. nt Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #26

Not rumors. Yanukovich implemented some IMF Austerity and the Ukrainians revolted Catherina Mar 2014 #42

So - the Ukrainians are just supposed to shut up and eat their peas? djean111 Mar 2014 #49

Yes. Shut up and eat your peas. Donetsk is rising up to secede now too. Catherina Mar 2014 #62

Trying to see how that would work. Donetsk appears to be a city, within an eastern region 2banon Mar 2014 #84

The entire Donetsk "Oblast," or District/Province, would probably vote to secede. reformist2 Mar 2014 #87

Thanks, does the arrow illustrate the "Oblast" (assuming that translates to "region/province) eom 2banon Mar 2014 #93

Your guess is as good as their's. Catherina Mar 2014 #101

Donetsk has a 50% ethnic Ukranian population. joshcryer Mar 2014 #117

Interesting... thanks for the link.. 2banon Mar 2014 #72

Great question. You made me remember how many of the neocons & friends profited from Iraq. Big time. reformist2 Mar 2014 #92

No investigations, that I'm aware of. apart from that dog and pony show of a congressional hearing 2banon Mar 2014 #94

The NeoCons have already moved on Poland in this regards go west young man Mar 2014 #105

Spot On, Well Done! 2banon Mar 2014 #109

I'd have done the same. For double-triple the retirement and a lower LittleBlue Mar 2014 #12

You must be straight joeglow3 Mar 2014 #25

For some, that's what it all boils down to. nt oldhippie Mar 2014 #34

Yes, I'm straight LittleBlue Mar 2014 #35

I think it is clear you have no clue how gays are treated in Russia joeglow3 Mar 2014 #39

If you think they're treated better in Ukraine, MattSh Mar 2014 #46

Saying that doesn't make it true joeglow3 Mar 2014 #74

Well looky here. I've got a link too. MattSh Mar 2014 #130

And you might want to look at the replies that blew the shit out of your link joeglow3 Mar 2014 #137

Because he has a clear animosity towards Ukrainians, apparently. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #142

as part of the EU, they'd have to treat them better CreekDog Apr 2014 #172

So better to fuck over everyone instead? LittleBlue Mar 2014 #48

You tell me how Russia is better for them joeglow3 Mar 2014 #73

They'll have more economic opportunity LittleBlue Mar 2014 #78

So, they may have more money when they are arrested or beaten to death for being gay joeglow3 Mar 2014 #85

As far as LGBT rights are concerned, it's a no-win situation. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #114

The Maidain protests had LGBT. joshcryer Mar 2014 #116

The Maidan protests also had people that want to kill LGBT simply for existing. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #119

I think they wanted away from Russian influence. joshcryer Mar 2014 #120

I agree that that was probably the primary motivation of all protesters of all political stripes. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #121

The EU is hardly an empire in the same vein as Russia. joshcryer Mar 2014 #122

I believe that the EU is the junior partner in the American imperial project with some eastern... Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #123

I think "junior partner" is fair. joshcryer Mar 2014 #124

A very astute post with which I agree whole-heartedly.nt Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #125

Repeating what I said to joshcryer: I enjoyed that exchange.. 2banon Mar 2014 #133

I enjoyed reading this exchange between you democracyinkind 2banon Mar 2014 #132

No, it's not a no-win situation, the EU requires LGBT rights CreekDog Apr 2014 #173

The EU requires many thing that Ukraine can't offer. nt Democracyinkind Apr 2014 #174

yes they can offer that CreekDog Apr 2014 #175

You got that right.. John McCain and Nuland? Uh Yeah, NEO CON Machinations. eom 2banon Mar 2014 #13

We used to call for "self determination" for people. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #15

We still do. Except when it doesn't suit us. Xithras Mar 2014 #52

How about self-determination for Chechnya? NT Adrahil Mar 2014 #75

You mean, like in 1861? Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #79

No, I was thinking more of 1991. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #80

My point is, that 'supporting the principle of self-determination' is always somewhat arbitrary. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #82

Indeed it is. And, trumpeting it as a "democratic principle" can sometimes bite you in the ass. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #86

Hear, Here! Well Said. 2banon Mar 2014 #96

I also would have voted to join Russia Autumn Mar 2014 #16

I have mixed feelings about this whole thing Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #17

You 'guess' that ethnic Russians have been mistreated in Ukraine? Jenoch Mar 2014 #18

Based on the status of ethnic Russians in the Baltic countries Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #23

The Baltics and Ukraine are in different parts of the dormer USSR. Jenoch Mar 2014 #71

Do you know that the 58% majority is the result of mass deportation of the indigenous Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #20

Yes, and the same thing happened in the Baltic countries Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #22

Yep! oldandhappy Mar 2014 #33

Crimean Tatars Will Have to Vacate Land � Official Bosonic Mar 2014 #129

Sounds Familiar? Eminent Domain, What we have done/do everywhere in this country and abroad. eom 2banon Mar 2014 #134

I agree with you. dilby Mar 2014 #19

Progressives for Putin ProSense Mar 2014 #24

But, "the west".. "the west"... leave Putin Alone. Lucky Crimea Cha Mar 2014 #111

Yeah, but you'd vote to leave the U.S. to join Russia BeyondGeography Mar 2014 #27

I would probably have done the same if I weren't part of a minority there. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #28

Something a little fishy about having Russian troops and weaponry around during the vote. Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #29

How would troops standing around with weapons .... oldhippie Mar 2014 #37

There were no troops and weaponry around during the vote, no more than normal Catherina Mar 2014 #43

Here's what the Guardian has to say about the observers.... Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #60

My mistake. I didn't mean the vote itself, but the campaign, for lack of a better word. Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #68

I understand what you're saying Catherina Mar 2014 #77

Again, I have no beef with self-determination. Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #83

The troops were always in the Crimea Catherina Mar 2014 #99

Absolutely, and if something can't be discussed politely, I'd rather not discuss it at all. Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #103

Thanks. I look forward to more exchanges with you Catherina Mar 2014 #139

Video of troops the day of the vote: joshcryer Mar 2014 #113

If this IS what the people of Crimea wanted, I'm all for it.......... wandy Mar 2014 #30

well, of course oldandhappy Mar 2014 #31

So why doesn't Putin let the Chechens have a vote for independence? hack89 Mar 2014 #32

You and I don't agree often but this is an astute point. nt stevenleser Mar 2014 #40

Because it's not about morality or consistency but national interest. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #41

This issue isn't about Kerry. And "national interest" isn't an exception to international law. stevenleser Mar 2014 #51

Bingo! And the winner goes to Comrade Grumpy ^this^ .. eom 2banon Mar 2014 #95

It is not important to Putin but it is important to many here... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #56

So the EU and America made him do it. Got it. nt hack89 Mar 2014 #69

Great question. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #155

And I'm pretty sure that you would have supported seccession as a Southerner in 1861. Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #44

I'm pretty sure you would be wrong. The secessionists were trying to run away from a commitment. reformist2 Mar 2014 #61

I thought the whole point was that Russia used coercion in Crimea? redgreenandblue Mar 2014 #91

What would have been your rationale? KamaAina Mar 2014 #47

If I were Russian, the reason is self-evident. If not, Russia is way more stable than the Ukraine. reformist2 Mar 2014 #63

So should Ukrainians living on mainland Ukraine also desire to join Russia... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #64

If other regions vote to leave, that would be fine too. It'll make what's left of Ukraine more stabl reformist2 Mar 2014 #65

Even if the vote comes while under an occupation of military forces? nt Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #67

Heh, Russia is about to get real unstable. joshcryer Mar 2014 #112

Not if you were a Tatar, although the chances of being Tatar and in Crimea are pretty low Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #54

You think the West has pumped all that aid money into Ukraine for charity? malaise Mar 2014 #55

This is what they want us to believe, for charity, human rights and democracy Catherina Mar 2014 #66

The vote was meaningless in that there was no way to vote against leaving the Ukraine Gothmog Mar 2014 #76

The turnout tells the story. There's really no debate that the majority wanted out of the Ukraine. reformist2 Mar 2014 #89

I disagree Gothmog Mar 2014 #90

LOL! No one was forced at gun point to vote at all. 2banon Mar 2014 #97

The concept of choice is a key part of voting Gothmog Mar 2014 #98

The problem there is... shaayecanaan Mar 2014 #100

The vote is totally meaningless from a legal and political standpoint Gothmog Mar 2014 #102

The Crimeans seem to think their vote had meaning. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #104

Watch the first five seconds: joshcryer Mar 2014 #115

By your logic, the recent vote in North Korea must be given effect Gothmog Mar 2014 #135

It wasnt shaayecanaan Mar 2014 #106

This vote was a PR Stunt Gothmog Mar 2014 #140

The vote for independence in Kosovo was 99% shaayecanaan Mar 2014 #141

Kosovo? Really? You do realize that there are major differences Gothmog Mar 2014 #143

Yes, really. shaayecanaan Mar 2014 #144

Your claim that there was a real choice on the Crimea ballot is simply wrong Gothmog Mar 2014 #145

This is what I hate about internet debate... shaayecanaan Mar 2014 #150

I was not aware that this was a debate Gothmog Mar 2014 #157

sure shaayecanaan Mar 2014 #168

The UN Vote on Crimea is good news Gothmog Mar 2014 #169

Amusing cartoon Gothmog Mar 2014 #167

Yes, in one city 123% of the city's population voted for this measure Gothmog Mar 2014 #131

Of course.. but, you'll only get denials from those who are Cha Mar 2014 #110

Good post Gothmog Mar 2014 #136

The people could have byocotted the vote if they would have wanted to oppose it. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #118

And yet their votes had to be counted to get to 123% of the population in one major city Gothmog Mar 2014 #146

I haven't been able to check out those numbers yeat PLUS... Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #147

I never saw any authority for your assertion Gothmog Mar 2014 #148

Uhm, on the authority of the dozens of western journalists present, perhaps? Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #149

Have you found any authority for your claims? Gothmog Mar 2014 #154

About russian speaking people? Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #156

Here is a very good article on why this election was fraudulent and some reliable statistics Gothmog Mar 2014 #158

I've read that article 3 days ago, it makes many of the same points that I did. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #160

I was not disputing your numbers or debating you on this issue Gothmog Mar 2014 #161

My basic position is that I am in favor of self-determination in almost all cases. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #162

You can not divorce the legal or ethical issues Gothmog Mar 2014 #164

Legalism is, as far as geo-strategy is concerned, always a secondary issue. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #165

While I agree with your comments about bush, we will have to agree to disagree as to this election Gothmog Mar 2014 #166

not if you were a Tatar MNBrewer Mar 2014 #138

Oh, never mind pesky facts--there's an agenda to shop! nt MADem Mar 2014 #153

agreed AmyCossileon Mar 2014 #151

Mischief is afoot for certain. Puzzledtraveller Mar 2014 #159

The UN has rejected the referendum in Crimea and Russia's annexation of Crimea Gothmog Mar 2014 #170

The fractious vote indicates the "New World Order" is starting to break apart. reformist2 Mar 2014 #171