General Discussion

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)

257. I see it differently.

Fri Mar 21, 2014, 01:13 AM

Mar 2014

First, we're talking about two different hypotheticals. I said, "If the ACA had been defeated in 2010 because some liberal Democrats voted against it over the lack of a public option...." So your assertion about the source of the opposition doesn't address my point. You're right about the real world, because all the liberals decided to go along with it (with varying degrees of enthusiasm), but I'm considering the question of whether they should have dug in their heels.

Second, my point was that, in that hypothetical, Obama might at least have explored restoring the public option while leaning on the DINOs to go along with that version. The left could have helped him by generating popular pressure on the targeted legislators. The main push, though, would have been Obama going on TV and bashing the insurance companies. A campaign with a theme like "Let's keep them honest" would have appealed to the widespread distrust of big corporations.

I'm not saying it would have been a sure win -- only that, on that scenario, we might have ended up with a public option. In the real world, however, where the liberals accepted the compromise and the ACA passed with no public option, there's no chance of public option or single payer anytime soon.

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There were a whole bunch of progressives who were against the ACA [View all] quinnox Mar 2014 OP

no, there were very, very few who allied with the Tea Party and the Koch Brothers geek tragedy Mar 2014 #1

ACA was not about saving humans Jesus Malverde Mar 2014 #34

I think perhaps you ought to go up to someone Arkana Mar 2014 #69

Which would have happened if we had a public option Doctor_J Mar 2014 #102

Close your eyes real tight and click your heels 3 times ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2014 #126

We don't know that for certain since no one tried to get the public option, cui bono Mar 2014 #229

Yes we do ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2014 #234

I'm not talking about counting votes. cui bono Mar 2014 #242

Then you are talking fantasy ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2014 #245

Now you are projecting. cui bono Mar 2014 #256

Projecting? .... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2014 #259

I disagree.... mike_c Mar 2014 #42

I agree with the end goal, but it was very hard to find people who honestly thought geek tragedy Mar 2014 #51

Exactly passiveporcupine Mar 2014 #89

I wish I could rec your post. Control-Z Mar 2014 #117

Thank you passiveporcupine Mar 2014 #121

Leading up to the ACA Baucus and the rest should have been less reluctant Enthusiast Mar 2014 #138

I would rec this post too but I think it is evasive of the cost for what was returned and our TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #213

I agree with you on much of what you say passiveporcupine Mar 2014 #223

The ACA success I hear over and over Jesus Malverde Mar 2014 #226

She is turning 26 next year and she is now able to work passiveporcupine Mar 2014 #231

Yeah but there are stepping stones we have to take before we dance brush Mar 2014 #93

The sickness-for-profit industry has to go. Say it again! Enthusiast Mar 2014 #137

Please do not do this - TBF Mar 2014 #61

the question at the end of the day is what would move the ball forward-- geek tragedy Mar 2014 #62

Right & we heard that. TBF Mar 2014 #63

I share that hope. The big movement underneath our feet has been geek tragedy Mar 2014 #65

The ACA moved the ball forward in some respects and backward in other respects. Jim Lane Mar 2014 #168

No, had the ACA failed no one would have thought "we have to make it more appealing to geek tragedy Mar 2014 #170

I see it differently. Jim Lane Mar 2014 #257

You were told it would not pass? treestar Mar 2014 #151

Here we go again - TBF Mar 2014 #155

That still sounds so passive treestar Mar 2014 #159

Feel good in knowing you are not the only person that notices that. Rex Mar 2014 #174

That's not true Capt. Obvious Mar 2014 #175

I like the photos - TBF Mar 2014 #189

Someone has to make sure the self-fulfilling prophecy happens Capt. Obvious Mar 2014 #214

Defend Obama at any and all costs....... SammyWinstonJack Mar 2014 #248

bullshit, yes "WE" were... the majority of democrats were... uponit7771 Mar 2014 #186

Maybe the poster thinks it was Teabaggers who wanted Single Payer?? sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #194

I was for single payer all the way BlueJac Mar 2014 #87

There is no reason to assume that the ACA would be more affordable than single payer. Enthusiast Mar 2014 #139

it sounds like you are implying G_j Mar 2014 #97

when the final vote of the ACA was in the House, some extreme so-called progressives geek tragedy Mar 2014 #99

here we go G_j Mar 2014 #106

with respect, that is not what I said. I acknowledged that there was a lot geek tragedy Mar 2014 #109

thanks for clarifying G_j Mar 2014 #111

if the choice had been ACA vs medicare for all, I would have voted for the latter. nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #113

You are spouting revisionist history Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #107

+1 an entire shit load! Enthusiast Mar 2014 #140

More Pro-Sensical Revisionism NoOneMan Mar 2014 #127

Said no one with any kind of actual responsibility. nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #163

Hello? Being against certain aspects of the ACA WAS NOT THE SAME AS being "allied with the Tea WinkyDink Mar 2014 #143

and when the choice was "pass or fail" on the March 2010 votes, it was a much different story. nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #164

Amen uponit7771 Mar 2014 #185

Since when did Tea Baggers support Single Payer or as a compromise, which is the fall back promise, sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #193

by March 2010, it was ACA or no ACA. The ACA was nobody's first choice nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #195

You made an amazing claim. That it was Teabaggers who supported the PO. sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #196

no what I said that it was the Teabaggers and their allies who wanted the ACA to get defeated nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #197

No, you stated clearly that it was only a small radical group who wanted the PO and they were sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #199

You're making shit up. Please do not lie about what I said. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #200

You made a statement comparing those of us, which is a majority of Democrats and always has been sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #201

False equivalence. cui bono Mar 2014 #228

DU was at the very *least* deeply divided on the ACA. Marr Mar 2014 #232

You don't need to remind me. Skinner Mar 2014 #2

I respectfully disagree about the ACA, in that I don't think it was good to pass it as it stood quinnox Mar 2014 #13

Please stop spreading Koch Brothers/AFP lies about the ACA geek tragedy Mar 2014 #24

Interesting the focus on health care spending and not the cost of premiums. Jesus Malverde Mar 2014 #41

"one could say we're spending more and getting less" geek tragedy Mar 2014 #43

Complaining that the ACA doesnt go far enough is not the same as what the Koch Bro rhett o rick Mar 2014 #95

the person stated that people are paying more and getting less because geek tragedy Mar 2014 #96

Huh? Here is exactly what they stated: "I respectfully disagree about the ACA, in that I don't rhett o rick Mar 2014 #108

It is a Koch-brothers sponsored lie that there were no cost-control provisions in the ACA. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #112

The post was written with respect. They disagreed with you and you call them a liar. rhett o rick Mar 2014 #122

It's not a matter of opinion, it's facts, even the critics who say geek tragedy Mar 2014 #123

You gotta love those that are so confident that they know all the answers rhett o rick Mar 2014 #125

Gotta love those who say "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." geek tragedy Mar 2014 #129

"The matter is not in controversy amongst the informed." "The informed"? rhett o rick Mar 2014 #130

Do you have any basis upon which to dispute geek tragedy Mar 2014 #131

No amount of "basis" can over come your extreme bias. You attack all statements that might rhett o rick Mar 2014 #134

In other words, "no." nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #135

+1! Enthusiast Mar 2014 #142

I decided to eliminate the frustration and put that poster on ignore. I dont need to rhett o rick Mar 2014 #207

After a while it becomes exhausting. Enthusiast Mar 2014 #216

No I dont give them that much credit. Most are frightened authoritarians. They were brought rhett o rick Mar 2014 #221

Thanks. Enthusiast Mar 2014 #258

It's as if David Koch was sipping a glass of water as he said that! Capt. Obvious Mar 2014 #176

Are you claiming that David Koch would utter the words, "I don't think it was good to pass it as it rhett o rick Mar 2014 #205

Premiums are not up. Schema Thing Mar 2014 #202

"Premiums are not up" Jesus Malverde Mar 2014 #225

I am still not convinced that was a good thing hfojvt Mar 2014 #48

Just wishing for something doesn't get it passed...see that is the problem you "good progressives" VanillaRhapsody Mar 2014 #3

nihilists, dude, nihilists. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #4

true....I always forget about the nihilists! VanillaRhapsody Mar 2014 #8

I don't roll on shabbas nt geek tragedy Mar 2014 #12

This message was self-deleted by its author truebrit71 Mar 2014 #5

Weren't the polls showing people wanted a public option. Mojorabbit Mar 2014 #66

Polls show people support a lot that a gerrymandered House won't pass bigbrother05 Mar 2014 #71

Amen to that. And don't you think that the President and his supporters were trying to ge what they kelliekat44 Mar 2014 #88

but you missed the point they desperately WANT to blame Obama for not getting us VanillaRhapsody Mar 2014 #208

+1 Adrahil Mar 2014 #105

Yep...but it doesn't mean we can make it happen as there really is no magic wand VanillaRhapsody Mar 2014 #210

Agree. :) NT Adrahil Mar 2014 #220

doesn't mean it will never happen does it? VanillaRhapsody Mar 2014 #120

Yup.... NT Adrahil Mar 2014 #103

In the end they are Ideologues. No clue how to actually MAKE progress, yet they call themselves KittyWampus Mar 2014 #119

Oh see but it would if Obama just "tried" or "twisted arms" treestar Mar 2014 #152

Agreed. We had the Repugs and the Blue Dogs to get through before we could get passage of the ACA. politicaljunkie41910 Mar 2014 #209

This is what we got and this is what we deal with. A lot of us Autumn Mar 2014 #6

just about everyone is disappointed with at least a few aspects of the ACA. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #7

Yes I understand. If we had hoped for more such as a public option, Autumn Mar 2014 #18

I don't think we are disagreeing. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #28

No I don't think we are disagreeing either. It is what it is. Autumn Mar 2014 #35

As there was virtual animosity against the ones who had hoped for more. Autumn Mar 2014 #40

so are you saying only those DUers and progressives that were "shouted down" were good? VanillaRhapsody Mar 2014 #14

That's the gist of the framing, anyway. Bobbie Jo Mar 2014 #19

yep....they keep trying to insult don't they? VanillaRhapsody Mar 2014 #23

It is truely amazing quakerboy Mar 2014 #98

I think the shout-downs were only to people who preferred NO bill to a compromised bill. pnwmom Mar 2014 #15

I remember differently. There were those who said kill the bill (idiots) and others who had Autumn Mar 2014 #26

There are parts I think are good... one_voice Mar 2014 #9

No, that statement should be taken this way: Maedhros Mar 2014 #30

If you were against the ACA, then that means you are against the lives its saving. phleshdef Mar 2014 #10

No, I'm against a system that doesn't automatically cover everyone Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #233

You are against a system that is saving lives if you are against the ACA. phleshdef Mar 2014 #236

Except for the people who still can't afford care even with insurance Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #237

Deductibles are well balanced with the max out of pocket cost. phleshdef Mar 2014 #238

Are you living in the real middle class/working class world with your opinion of deductibles? Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #241

Yes. Between my wife and I, we rank somewhere in the 50ish percentile of income. phleshdef Mar 2014 #243

All the policies I've seen require the co-pays AFTER the deductible Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #250

Yes, there are co-pays up until the point you meet the out of pocket cost. phleshdef Mar 2014 #253

For my age and income group, the platinum plans are unaffordable, even with the subsidy Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #260

You misunderstand what Potter is saying. There never was a loss ratio standard before the ACA. phleshdef Mar 2014 #261

So are you bragging about not wanting to get any bill passed, or what? pnwmom Mar 2014 #11

but if you say that you are apparently not a "good DU'er or Progressive" VanillaRhapsody Mar 2014 #16

Well that's just it isn't it? Puzzledtraveller Mar 2014 #54

but saying that those that were trying to "kill the bill" were the "good DUer's and Progressives" VanillaRhapsody Mar 2014 #55

I agree there Puzzledtraveller Mar 2014 #60

This isn't about personal feelings toward Obama, or it shouldn't be. This is about giving the facts pnwmom Mar 2014 #67

You mean Scott Brown. Arkana Mar 2014 #70

LOL. Hey, they're all interchangeable parts these days, aren't they? pnwmom Mar 2014 #78

I, for one, wanted Public Option. Feral Child Mar 2014 #17

I'm thinking in 2 years the ACA as it stands now will have Autumn Mar 2014 #56

Yes. Feral Child Mar 2014 #59

better than nothing- better than the staus quo was where most progressives were coming from Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #20

The rest of the western world Ichingcarpenter Mar 2014 #45

PLUS ONE! nt Enthusiast Mar 2014 #145

No "progressives" were against the law. iandhr Mar 2014 #21

Don't expect a response to that ... some here think the only thing JoePhilly Mar 2014 #83

A blatant misrepresentation Doctor_J Mar 2014 #100

Nothing about iandhr Mar 2014 #101

I like your posts CJCRANE Mar 2014 #22

No agenda. I refer to what I think of as "good progressives" here at DU. I respect them immensely quinnox Mar 2014 #29

It's okay, it doesn't disturb me, it's just that we're all self-appointed here CJCRANE Mar 2014 #47

Heh, I hear ya quinnox Mar 2014 #52

What you said nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #25

+ a gazillion. "The system does not serve the people" quinnox Mar 2014 #49

"And while we could not get anything better, it's because the system does not serve the people. " NCTraveler Mar 2014 #50

Yes, ProSense Mar 2014 #27

I was for it, vocally, because of the pre-existing conditions clause. WilliamPitt Mar 2014 #31

I'm sorry to read about your situation, and it was horrible to see cold-hearted lock stepper types quinnox Mar 2014 #32

Where did anyone "attack" the poster for his "situation"? ProSense Mar 2014 #38

I saw mostly positive advice and some premature resignation. CJCRANE Mar 2014 #53

No one attacked him for his situation. He was attacked for misplacing the blame in a nasty way. phleshdef Mar 2014 #79

He was set straight all right Capt. Obvious Mar 2014 #177

Because you didn't understand how insurance works apparently theboss Mar 2014 #37

Well, AFP is looking for Obamacare victims, maybe you can tell geek tragedy Mar 2014 #46

I was against it because of the children with pre-existing conditions clause that dumped ScreamingMeemie Mar 2014 #68

as you should. Schema Thing Mar 2014 #203

Pony! 1000words Mar 2014 #33

Right. Bobbie Jo Mar 2014 #44

Capitalism is NOT progressive. PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #36

Getting more health care to more people is. n/t Orsino Mar 2014 #218

If you were against the ACA, I'd take issue with your self-characterization. riqster Mar 2014 #39

the good, the bad and the oogly. Whisp Mar 2014 #57

It wasn't that black and white tularetom Mar 2014 #58

I agree. I agreed when they dumped my son from his insurance policy after the initial ScreamingMeemie Mar 2014 #64

Thankfully people like Grayson, Sanders and Kucinich weren't against the ACA Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #73

I am not a fan of Grayson. ScreamingMeemie Mar 2014 #74

But I'm sure you agree with him on most issues Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #76

I do not. Sorry. ScreamingMeemie Mar 2014 #81

Excuse me? Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #85

But note that they were strong-armed into voting for the ACA Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #110

Yep! cer7711 Mar 2014 #72

Exactly, that is the same timeline I remember quinnox Mar 2014 #80

+1 an entire shit load! "Welcome to the United States of "Meh"." Enthusiast Mar 2014 #146

You seem unaware of what "meh" means. Schema Thing Mar 2014 #204

You're Completely Missing the "Meta" Subtext cer7711 Mar 2014 #211

I don't ctsnowman Mar 2014 #75

John Boehner would like to hear from you. JoePhilly Mar 2014 #77

We had to start Somewhere taotzu Mar 2014 #82

I remember that clearly, the "Professional Left". Phlem Mar 2014 #84

"well fix it later" just turned into "there's nothing to fix" (and now it's becoming "Obama wanted MisterP Mar 2014 #86

There were, and I am one of them. FiveGoodMen Mar 2014 #90

this is the ACA rtracey Mar 2014 #91

+1 area51 Mar 2014 #179

the ACA doesn't give us health CARE. It gives us health INSURANCE. hobbit709 Mar 2014 #92

I agree with this 100% +1. dilby Mar 2014 #114

That is how I see it as well. The ACA is a band-aid on a hopelessly broken system quinnox Mar 2014 #116

+1 a whole bunch! Enthusiast Mar 2014 #147

Single payer is just health insurance Recursion Mar 2014 #150

This one is so lame treestar Mar 2014 #156

Never mind. It would probably get hidden. hobbit709 Mar 2014 #158

Which proves emotional reasoning treestar Mar 2014 #160

I'm not a mindless cheerleader. hobbit709 Mar 2014 #161

Of course you aren't treestar Mar 2014 #162

Who said anything about "being "given" health care instead of a way to pay for it." hobbit709 Mar 2014 #166

Then why not put it as we want single payer instead of insurance companies? treestar Mar 2014 #188

Right, single payer plans in Canada and the UK still have some of the same problems as... phleshdef Mar 2014 #247

+1 n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #182

Yea these folks don't understand that single payer is still essentially HEALTH INSURANCE. phleshdef Mar 2014 #246

Actually, the ACA doesn't give us jack squat... derby378 Mar 2014 #180

For all practical purposes it ends the phenomenon of medical bankruptcy. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #183

I dunno about that... derby378 Mar 2014 #184

Wrestling with insurance companies is inconvenient and frustrating. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #187

Single payer would do the exact same thing. You would get a bill for it. Ikonoklast Mar 2014 #224

Pretty sure when I go for a checkup soon, an then a colonscopy Schema Thing Mar 2014 #206

This message was self-deleted by its author 1monster Mar 2014 #94

If I recall, there were basically 3 groups on the DU... hughee99 Mar 2014 #104

You remember correctly Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #115

I agree with everything you have written. nt laundry_queen Mar 2014 #171

Some said that it was a necessary "first step". Ok, when is the "second step?". nm rhett o rick Mar 2014 #133

When there is another Democratic Congress treestar Mar 2014 #154

It's too bad we didn't have one when the ACA was Capt. Obvious Mar 2014 #178

I was in the group that thought, Enthusiast Mar 2014 #148

And those same people would have been against implementing Social Security KittyWampus Mar 2014 #118

NOT true AT ALL. Nice specious claim, though. WinkyDink Mar 2014 #144

Very true treestar Mar 2014 #153

That is not true Harmony Blue Mar 2014 #169

+1 uponit7771 Mar 2014 #240

I was against it before I was for it. I thought the Clinton's could spank Lieberman into submission. adirondacker Mar 2014 #124

I was LittleBlue Mar 2014 #128

THANK YOU Skittles Mar 2014 #132

+1 Enthusiast Mar 2014 #136

*Raises hand.* I thought---and still think---the SCOTUS ruling on the mandate was unConstitutional. WinkyDink Mar 2014 #141

The ACA is very much Obama's original proposal. joshcryer Mar 2014 #149

This is a pretty good summation - TBF Mar 2014 #190

I was opposed, too. Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2014 #157

I was one of them Le Taz Hot Mar 2014 #165

dissent is patriotic Niceguy1 Mar 2014 #167

ACA Tide Turns: Protesters Arrested In GA, GOPer Schools Scottie ProSense Mar 2014 #172

Yes. I'm one of them. LWolf Mar 2014 #173

Here: ProSense Mar 2014 #181

Democrats were FOR PO at least. sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #191

Saying the Public Option was shot down without consideration IS revisionist history BklnDem75 Mar 2014 #192

Why could Nelson and Lieberman not have been strong-armed the way Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #212

They held all the cards BklnDem75 Mar 2014 #215

Whatever you say about the Republicans, they don't put up Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2014 #227

I'm positive the tea party disagrees with you BklnDem75 Mar 2014 #249

I wanted Medicare for all, but ACA is better B Calm Mar 2014 #198

The story of our lives as progressive Democrats is that we always shoot for what's best Zorra Mar 2014 #217

Many of the people that are the most Aerows Mar 2014 #219

True...I wasn't a fan of the bill at first, but... Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #222

The public option was killed in a backroom Senate Democrats meeting bluestateguy Mar 2014 #230

I was against it Bernie2016 Mar 2014 #235

If only my wife and daughter were still without health insurance! killbotfactory Mar 2014 #239

That may very well be true... LannyDeVaney Mar 2014 #244

There's a difference between "against" and "Wishing it were a lot better" Scootaloo Mar 2014 #251

There are lots of people who wanted the U.S. to go from neo-fascist corporate, to lovely paradise Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #252

Yes, there was a lot of support for a public option. cheapdate Mar 2014 #254

Yeah the fight over single payer. Looks like 85 people agree with you. Rex Mar 2014 #255