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In reply to the discussion: How to Generate Bogus Conclusions (E-Cig Study Edition) [View all]cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)58. No, that's not right. They made no study of whether it helps people quit.
Check this out: Youll hear lots of stories from people that say that e-cigarettes help them quit, but what we found was when we actually studied that systematically, we didnt see a significant effect on cessation
They did not study whether e-cigs help people quit at all, systematically or otherwise. They studied whether having used e-cigs in he past helped people quit smoking in he future.
In this study, a person who had never tried e-cigs would be in the smoker/no ecig experience subset. So then three months later they try ecigs and quit. It appears that in this study that would count as an e-cig fail because they quit using e-cigs, rather than quitting after using e-cigs and cigarettes simultaneously.
On the other hand, some guy had been smoking and vaping up a storm. Loves e-cigs. Decides to quit cold turkey, with no e-cigs. That would be an e-cig success story.
For this all to mean what it claims to mean requires that people who have used an e-cig in the last month are identical to the general smoking population, and that statements about quitting are interchangeable between the two groups.
The e-cig experienced subset is self-selected. This is a population of, in this case, smokers who have for some reason used an e-cig in the last month.
Does anyone think that group is comparable to all cigarette users?
Most smokers,by a lot, say they would *like* to quit.
Some people who would like to quit try an e-cig to see if they will magically quit. Since quitting takes an effort, they do not magically quit. No surprise.
We have no identified a population who would *like* to quit, but have taken a step in that direction and failed. And surprise! That group is less successful over the following year.
Let me try it this way... I suggest that a study of people who smoke while using nicotine gum (or any other method of quitting) will show a lower quit rate than the general population of smokers.
People who smoke while using nicotine gum are hardcore addicts in trouble who can't quit no matter what.
Would anyone compare them, apples to apples, to ordinary smokers who don't also chew nicotine gum while smoking, and thus conclude that nicotine gum doesn't work?
Almost everyone who has ever used methadone is a serious junkie, not a casual user. Out of the population of people who have ever used heroin but do not use heroin today, I can guarantee you that the group that has used methadone has a higher, not lower rate of heroin use.
But that is because nobody who can quit on their own uses methadone. Nobody who isn't all that addicted to begin with uses methadone.
It is not a sensible way to look at whether X helps people quit Y.
And, as I am sure you know, the populations of users of any addictive substance, from heroin to alcohol to caffeine, etc., are very different. Some people's brains are wired to crave and need shit like you wouldn't believe while others can take it or leave it.
That goes for nicotine as much or more than for cocaine.
And the hardest cases are precisely the people who quit and fail and quit and fail. They have a lot more experience with quiting, with alternatives, with therapies.
If this stuff is not done apples to apples it is an auto-fail.
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I am looking to quit, but will settle for now for reducing cigarette consumption. That's a win.
Comrade Grumpy
Mar 2014
#3
It is? The poster below you disagrees, and so does everyone I know who vapes.
DisgustipatedinCA
Mar 2014
#4
Why do these people need to use them where cigs are not allowed? No need to change that part!! nt
Logical
Mar 2014
#133
It's kind of like Republicans wanting to make those on welfare suffer more, there's
TransitJohn
Mar 2014
#137
"to determine whether e-cigarette use predicted successful quitting or reduced cigarette consumption
NoOneMan
Mar 2014
#60
Look at the study. 1-Year Success rate is 13.8 (non-users) vs 10.2 (e-cig users)
NoOneMan
Mar 2014
#52
No. Vaping is not smoking. Gum is not smoking. Patches is not smoking. Smoking cigarettes is smoking
NoOneMan
Mar 2014
#109
It can be. I know many people who taper down the strength until they are using no nicotine. -nt
Liberal Veteran
Mar 2014
#12
You reduced the use of e-cigs as solely a means of substituting nicotine delivery.
KittyWampus
Mar 2014
#124
Neither are demonstrated to be effective in increasing long term cessation of smoking
NoOneMan
Mar 2014
#24
Who says tobacco smokers want to stop using nicotine entirely? That is your straw man.
KittyWampus
Mar 2014
#123
I wish the people who are against e-cigs would just be clear in their demands.
Liberal Veteran
Mar 2014
#8
"Common sense dictates that they should work at least as well as patches or gum"
NoOneMan
Mar 2014
#127
The researchers at UCSF who study tobacco know a boatload about biostatistics
ProfessorPlum
Mar 2014
#95
I am fine with them if they don't use them where real cigs are not allowed. nt
Logical
Mar 2014
#134
why do smokers need to use them other places? They satisfied their cravings fine before. n-t
Logical
Mar 2014
#136
I don't want to be around it. Don't like it. Good enough reason? Like I said.....
Logical
Mar 2014
#139
Yes it is good enough. And cities and companies are agreeing. I love your whining....
Logical
Mar 2014
#141
No, it's really not good enough. And I love your illogical pseudo logic
SirRevolutionary
Mar 2014
#143
Oddly enough, your whims are not the sole consideration in all human affairs
cthulu2016
Mar 2014
#147