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ProfessorPlum

(11,461 posts)

95. The researchers at UCSF who study tobacco know a boatload about biostatistics

Reply to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Tue Mar 25, 2014, 04:13 PM

Mar 2014

and the tobacco companies, especially Stanton Glantz. I'd be really surprised if their conclusions weren't carefully phrased and the power of their claims tested to support those conclusions.

That being said, it looks like a multi-tiered study with lots of subgroups . . . you are picking out one claim and conclusion among many and hammering on it. I respect your right to disagree with the conclusion and especially so if you are finding a flaw in the way the experiment was designed . . . but I think that perhaps you are blowing a side note or conclusion up to be the main conclusion of the study. If they didn't see an effect in people not trying to quit, that's interesting, but not really relevant if you are trying to find out the effect in people who ARE trying to quit - and I'd bet that they didn't comment on that group. Do you see what I mean? I think you are attacking a straw man.

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Highlight:

How to Generate Bogus Conclusions (E-Cig Study Edition) [View all] cthulu2016 Mar 2014 OP

the POINT is.... chillfactor Mar 2014 #1

I am looking to quit, but will settle for now for reducing cigarette consumption. That's a win. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #3

It is? The poster below you disagrees, and so does everyone I know who vapes. DisgustipatedinCA Mar 2014 #4

I'll have to tell my brother he got it wrong ... GeorgeGist Mar 2014 #15

"85% of smokers who used e-cigarettes reported using them to quit" NoOneMan Mar 2014 #23

You couldn't be more wrong. beevul Mar 2014 #26

They're looking to reduce their tabacco usage, which a very good thing. Marr Mar 2014 #28

I was looking to quit Treant Mar 2014 #32

not totally true Tyhanna Mar 2014 #35

That's what happened with me. Mariana Mar 2014 #54

No, but thanks for producing your garbage study. jeff47 Mar 2014 #73

Wait a sec Treant Mar 2014 #80

94% of the e-ciggers intended to quit at start of study. 87% of non-users. NoOneMan Mar 2014 #87

They have 0 "e-ciggers". They have dual-users. jeff47 Mar 2014 #90

You can't just make things up here NoOneMan Mar 2014 #92

People can delude themselves quite easily. jeff47 Mar 2014 #102

Oh good god. NoOneMan Mar 2014 #106

Reading. Try it! jeff47 Mar 2014 #110

This "majority" of people aren't smokers, despite any and all pretzel logic NoOneMan Mar 2014 #112

No no no no. smoking tobacco is not the same as using nicotine. It isn't. Demit Mar 2014 #128

I don't understand the anti-e-cig mania. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #2

I agree, and have not seen anyone say they shouldn't be 18+ cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #9

I haven't seen a single person, vaper or not, who disagrees LadyHawkAZ Mar 2014 #10

The term "moral panic" comes to mind. Liberal Veteran Mar 2014 #16

You'd noticed that too? Prophet 451 Mar 2014 #67

Some people are just anti-smoking zealots MicaelS Mar 2014 #11

They're anti-NICOTINE zealots meow2u3 Mar 2014 #107

Remember when they used to say it was all about Mariana Mar 2014 #130

Prohibitionists will find any pretext to persecute vapers meow2u3 Mar 2014 #142

I think the anti -e-cig mania is being financed by the tobacco industry nt octoberlib Mar 2014 #14

Bingo. n/t Whiskeytide Mar 2014 #19

Ding! Treant Mar 2014 #33

I agree.... zabet Mar 2014 #36

The telling fact Treant Mar 2014 #43

And the tobacco companies are selling e-cigs Mariana Mar 2014 #68

Half the major tobacco companies have bought up e-cig companies. onehandle Mar 2014 #44

But hardly anyone uses their crappy e-cigs. Mariana Mar 2014 #56

I suspect your latter paragraph is correct Prophet 451 Mar 2014 #69

Tritto Treant Mar 2014 #88

The harm is done to the people who don't know Mariana Mar 2014 #100

You're exactly right Oilwellian Mar 2014 #105

Neither the tobacco or pharmaceutical industry wants competition.... meow2u3 Mar 2014 #108

The mania is a PR campaign DJ13 Mar 2014 #75

Why do these people need to use them where cigs are not allowed? No need to change that part!! nt Logical Mar 2014 #133

It's kind of like Republicans wanting to make those on welfare suffer more, there's TransitJohn Mar 2014 #137

"85% of smokers who used e-cigarettes reported using them to quit" NoOneMan Mar 2014 #5

Okay... that is beyond dishonest. cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #31

The researchers checked 1 year later NoOneMan Mar 2014 #51

Definition Treant Mar 2014 #55

"to determine whether e-cigarette use predicted successful quitting or reduced cigarette consumption NoOneMan Mar 2014 #60

Got it. Treant Mar 2014 #62

"I think they're lying" NoOneMan Mar 2014 #63

Possibly Treant Mar 2014 #64

Well this article is fully available: NoOneMan Mar 2014 #65

No, thanks. Treant Mar 2014 #70

"When data flies in the face of common sense" NoOneMan Mar 2014 #77

Thanks for the insult Treant Mar 2014 #82

I posted this before I read about your impairment NoOneMan Mar 2014 #84

On second thought.. Treant Mar 2014 #85

hum Tyhanna Mar 2014 #71

Thanks! Treant Mar 2014 #74

The 85% refers to an intention, not a success rate. pnwmom Mar 2014 #46

Look at the study. 1-Year Success rate is 13.8 (non-users) vs 10.2 (e-cig users) NoOneMan Mar 2014 #52

Definition Treant Mar 2014 #57

See above. You can read an abstract too you know NoOneMan Mar 2014 #61

Actually Treant Mar 2014 #72

Oh. I apologize. NoOneMan Mar 2014 #78

Maybe if Treant Mar 2014 #86

The study is of people who are not trying to quit. jeff47 Mar 2014 #79

94% of the e-cig users are intending to quit at the start of the study NoOneMan Mar 2014 #81

No. They have 0 e-cig users. jeff47 Mar 2014 #89

"Who overall did not intend to quit.". <-- Where is this in their data? NoOneMan Mar 2014 #91

In the text. And you skipped over the problem with 0 e-cig users. jeff47 Mar 2014 #94

Where?!? I see 94% of this group intends to quit. Its right in the graph NoOneMan Mar 2014 #96

Gum and patch do not replace cigarettes jeff47 Mar 2014 #98

What's that have to do with the price of tea in China? NoOneMan Mar 2014 #99

If they are using nicotine, they should be considered "smoker" jeff47 Mar 2014 #104

No. Vaping is not smoking. Gum is not smoking. Patches is not smoking. Smoking cigarettes is smoking NoOneMan Mar 2014 #109

Once again, the point of "smoking" is to inhale nicotine. jeff47 Mar 2014 #111

Silly is an understatement NoOneMan Mar 2014 #115

Some "intended" to quit, but the problem is that cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #93

You couldn't be more wrong. NoOneMan Mar 2014 #97

The older I get, the more skeptical I get of researchers.. MicaelS Mar 2014 #6

There used to be gatekeepers jeff47 Mar 2014 #83

People that smoke are addicted to nicotine Bandit Mar 2014 #7

It can be. I know many people who taper down the strength until they are using no nicotine. -nt Liberal Veteran Mar 2014 #12

I am Treant Mar 2014 #37

People who are obese are addicted to eating lots of food cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #13

that was a very convoluted way to say hfojvt Mar 2014 #20

Where in my post did I say anything was wrong with using nicotine? Bandit Mar 2014 #47

You reduced the use of e-cigs as solely a means of substituting nicotine delivery. KittyWampus Mar 2014 #124

I've gone from 24mg liquid to 6mg. Revanchist Mar 2014 #17

You're doing it wrong! Mariana Mar 2014 #38

No! It can't be done! Treant Mar 2014 #59

Care to explain patches and gum, both marketed as quit devices, then? n/t LadyHawkAZ Mar 2014 #22

Neither are demonstrated to be effective in increasing long term cessation of smoking NoOneMan Mar 2014 #24

At this point I don't see a real need to change the marketing LadyHawkAZ Mar 2014 #27

I'm talking about the marketing of gum/patches being bullshit NoOneMan Mar 2014 #30

Bud smoke Treant Mar 2014 #48

Well, you're wrong Oilwellian Mar 2014 #119

I know several people who quit smoking cold turkey NoOneMan Mar 2014 #120

I also know several who quit cold turkey Oilwellian Mar 2014 #125

Having anecdotes doesn't make other people wrong NoOneMan Mar 2014 #126

There's no first-hand smoke effect, either Mariana Mar 2014 #34

So what? Treant Mar 2014 #41

so you think nicotine is so bad? How about those that use nicotine for UC? Tyhanna Mar 2014 #45

Reading comprehension skills.. I wish people would learn them. Bandit Mar 2014 #50

guess I miss understood what you were trying to say n/t Tyhanna Mar 2014 #66

Who says tobacco smokers want to stop using nicotine entirely? That is your straw man. KittyWampus Mar 2014 #123

In my case you're wrong Glitterati Mar 2014 #148

I wish the people who are against e-cigs would just be clear in their demands. Liberal Veteran Mar 2014 #8

They should be taxed to the hilt. Mariana Mar 2014 #39

you never do explain HOW to be a dishonest moron hfojvt Mar 2014 #18

Practice, practice, practice cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #21

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #25

I think you're getting this wrong. DanTex Mar 2014 #29

No, that's not right. They made no study of whether it helps people quit. cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #58

Yes, the population of e-cig smokers is self-selected. DanTex Mar 2014 #114

I am not saying science is impossible, I am saying this study is bogus cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #118

But your argument as to why this study is "bogus" is invalid. DanTex Mar 2014 #121

"Common sense dictates that they should work at least as well as patches or gum" NoOneMan Mar 2014 #127

I wasn't of aware of that. DanTex Mar 2014 #129

For reference: NoOneMan Mar 2014 #131

I quit completely 3 years ago thanks to E-cigs. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #40

Congratulations! Treant Mar 2014 #42

My Last Tobacco Cig Was in October Leith Mar 2014 #53

i'm coming up on two weeks fizzgig Mar 2014 #151

Although I agree with you on this issue, I have to ask: truedelphi Mar 2014 #49

I'm currently smoking my fifth ciggy of the day Prophet 451 Mar 2014 #76

The researchers at UCSF who study tobacco know a boatload about biostatistics ProfessorPlum Mar 2014 #95

Unfortunately, Treant Mar 2014 #116

Glantz is an antis anti. N/T beevul Mar 2014 #122

Works MUCH better with a Quitter's Inc support group... jtuck004 Mar 2014 #101

I haven't seen them marketed a a smoking cessation aid notadmblnd Mar 2014 #103

They are only marketed as a cessation device overseas LadyHawkAZ Mar 2014 #113

Or for entertainment Treant Mar 2014 #117

The stupid is strong on that side of the ecig battle SirRevolutionary Mar 2014 #132

I am fine with them if they don't use them where real cigs are not allowed. nt Logical Mar 2014 #134

And what's your logic behind that thought process? SirRevolutionary Mar 2014 #135

why do smokers need to use them other places? They satisfied their cravings fine before. n-t Logical Mar 2014 #136

They're only allowed to smoke SirRevolutionary Mar 2014 #138

I don't want to be around it. Don't like it. Good enough reason? Like I said..... Logical Mar 2014 #139

Perhaps you're confused... SirRevolutionary Mar 2014 #140

Yes it is good enough. And cities and companies are agreeing. I love your whining.... Logical Mar 2014 #141

No, it's really not good enough. And I love your illogical pseudo logic SirRevolutionary Mar 2014 #143

No, its not good enough. beevul Mar 2014 #145

Oddly enough, your whims are not the sole consideration in all human affairs cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #147

Logical appears to wish harm on you Mariana Mar 2014 #144

Thats SO true. beevul Mar 2014 #146

I envision them trying to watch everyone around them Mariana Mar 2014 #150

Logic would dictate that, yes... SirRevolutionary Mar 2014 #149