General Discussion

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)

235. Here's the thing. First off, I believe the specific quote we're discussing comes from "Our Blood".

Tue Apr 1, 2014, 05:55 PM

Apr 2014

But the larger point, in this thread, is that defenders of Dworkin seem to have several different narratives around this stuff, some of them in direct conflict with each other.

To wit, she's irrelevant, but she's also important. She had lost touch with reality and espoused some admittedly kooky ideas, but her views must not be maligned.

One line of reasoning seems to be, "she never said that quote verbatim, and it's also a gross mischaracterization of her views" Simultaneously, however, people argue that "she never said that quote verbatim, and while it's not a mischaracterization of her views, it's a legitimate sentiment because of the law at the time". Another is "she never said that quote verbatim, and while it's not a mischaracterization of her views, she had an incredibly messed up life which led her to espouse all sorts of out there stuff" etc. etc.

I mean, if it doesn't matter what she DID say because of what she went through and the reality of the times she lived in, then it's sort of moot as to whether or not the actual quote in the OP was said in those specific words.

I do agree with one premise of your OP, here, in that Dworkin is irrelevant to discussions around rape culture in GD, and silly to bring up in that context.

Now, have I read Our Blood or Intercourse cover to cover? I've read enough to know I disagree with the philosophical underpinnings and axiomatic assumptions of her work. Similarly, I've never read all of Das Kapital, but I know where I don't agree with Marx. I've never read Atlas Shrugged (I'm not that much of a masochist) but I know I'm not an Objectivist.

As far as Intercourse... okay, put on your word salad waders and make it through this excerpt, and get back to me. I stand by my assertion that she had some seriously distorted views on human sexuality.

http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/IntercourseI.html

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Andrea Dworkin NEVER said "all sex is rape" [View all] Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 OP

no, neither did. then again, anti feminists really do not let facts get in their way. seabeyond Mar 2014 #1

I understand your feelings Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #5

And she is right. KitSileya Mar 2014 #9

Thanks. That's helpful. Chathamization Mar 2014 #153

I am amazed here by the number of folks Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #154

That's how it is. JackRiddler Mar 2014 #161

I read the article in which she said this. Atman Mar 2014 #2

so penthouse put something dworkin said out of context to diss her? so surprised. seabeyond Mar 2014 #3

Under which context does that make sense? Hip_Flask Mar 2014 #4

See, above post Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #7

Under the context where penthouse was frightened of the influence of feminists and wanted Squinch Mar 2014 #63

And yet free internet porn destroyed penthouse's business model far more effectively than Dworkin Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #111

You read, in Penthouse, Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #6

Well that settles it BainsBane Mar 2014 #8

Leave it to you to entirely miss the point. Atman Mar 2014 #14

You read an article BainsBane Mar 2014 #16

It was an INTERVIEW. Atman Mar 2014 #18

Did you see the interview? BainsBane Mar 2014 #20

Do you EVER, EVER actually read what anyone posts, or just make stuff up? Atman Mar 2014 #24

That was a rhetorical question, right? 11 Bravo Mar 2014 #28

This message was self-deleted by its author Squinch Mar 2014 #67

Right BainsBane Apr 2014 #251

Do you always, always insit that the only possible conversation BainsBane Apr 2014 #250

So I am only supposed to accept the Penthouse interview was fake? Atman Apr 2014 #252

Paglia or Dworkin BainsBane Apr 2014 #255

"...because you think you remember reading something in Penthouse equates with absolute truth..." Atman Apr 2014 #256

Question BainsBane Apr 2014 #258

I have searched. I get mixed results. Atman Apr 2014 #259

Okay, you're right BainsBane Apr 2014 #271

Here BainsBane Apr 2014 #275

Except it wasn't 1994 Atman Apr 2014 #278

Have I? BainsBane Apr 2014 #279

Just read anything you've ever posted. Atman Apr 2014 #280

In other words, you have no proof because you made shit up BainsBane Apr 2014 #282

BTW, I get supportive PM's, too. Atman Apr 2014 #262

Who's making stuff up now? BainsBane Apr 2014 #264

There is no point, because everyone else can read them! Atman Apr 2014 #266

Oh, you retracted them BainsBane Apr 2014 #269

Here is what you do... Atman Apr 2014 #253

You insisted repeatedly it was true BainsBane Apr 2014 #257

GAWD that was painful to read Tsiyu Apr 2014 #303

I'm reading an autobiography of a former child star, closeupready Mar 2014 #38

That's why interviews are taped. Atman Mar 2014 #39

You would think Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #134

Seriously? This is what you are going to the wall on? Penthouse's journalistic integrity? Squinch Mar 2014 #66

No, absolutely not. Atman Mar 2014 #68

You are widely misunderstood. It must be difficult for you. Squinch Mar 2014 #75

Nope. I am quite comfortable in my beliefs. Atman Mar 2014 #79

Yes. We all work for Democratic causes. Why are you pointing out that you do? Squinch Mar 2014 #82

I'm just at talking about Bain. It is well documented. Atman Mar 2014 #84

Apparently it's difficult for some, that Dworkin is "misunderstood" Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #102

Perfect. Atman Mar 2014 #105

I'm honestly not sure what to think. I'm no great admirer of hers, but I don't entirely dismiss her nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #135

She was a product of her experiences Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #137

I agree completely with this post. Her ideas sure as hell didn't come from nowhere. nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #140

I think on that, you're right. Many of her most ardent allies felt she had lost touch with reality Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #160

I haven't seen anybody saying she is a voice to be listened to, just defending her from the lies cui bono Apr 2014 #178

The only people I've seen bring her up initially are people arguing against feminist issues. seabeyond Apr 2014 #180

I've never read her and the fact that she is being villified and used as a tool cui bono Apr 2014 #184

me too. i know what i have read of her little piece people use, seabeyond Apr 2014 #185

Yeah, that could be interesting. cui bono Apr 2014 #274

I consider myself a feminist and I've never heard of her, before now. 2banon Apr 2014 #243

I suspect it's because she comes up as a name on radical feminist sites cui bono Apr 2014 #276

amazing.. sounds like rush limpballs followers.. 2banon Apr 2014 #288

I think you can download everything from this link. CrispyQ Apr 2014 #306

I agree that accuracy is important. Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #182

She's a topic of this thread because someone else wrongly accused her in his OP cui bono Apr 2014 #183

Yes, but this thread is about her, specifically what she did or did not say. Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #186

Agreed. n/t cui bono Apr 2014 #187

Her health was beginning to fail Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #195

Hmmm Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #136

With this thread as inspiration, I went to the wiki page on her - wow. closeupready Mar 2014 #146

I wouldn't say "tainted" her writing or ideas, but informed them Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #148

I suspect that many who are beaten and/or raped do closeupready Mar 2014 #156

Beatings and sexual assault leave their mark Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #199

I think it's only changed a little, unfortunately. I'm 29 and graduated high school in 2003. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #272

The level of violence lurking just below the surface Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #293

I know exactly what you mean. Other men often frighten or intimidate me without even consciously nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #294

I live in the South Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #296

Good for you. Everyone needs to deal with this in their own way, and your way is at least nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #297

Women are not the only ones afraid of men. Men are afraid of other men. CrispyQ Apr 2014 #307

i have not studied her either. i recently downloaded her stuff. seabeyond Mar 2014 #151

It's sad that she is condemned; on the other hand, closeupready Mar 2014 #155

Her book "Letters From a War Zone" thucythucy Apr 2014 #230

yes. i have heard of that. and yes, that was what i was told to particularly read. excellent seabeyond Apr 2014 #234

excellent idea! thucythucy Apr 2014 #236

ahhhh. and btw, seabeyond Apr 2014 #237

Ah, the old guilt by association fallacy BainsBane Apr 2014 #254

Ah, you sure do have an active imagination. Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #260

I am far from an expert on such matters BainsBane Apr 2014 #263

If there are conservatives who agree with me that the 1st Amendment is important Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #265

This thread came out of the thread seeking to deny rape culture BainsBane Apr 2014 #267

I've said at least 3 times in this thread, I felt that bringing Dworkin up in the context of those Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #268

That ignores the issue of separatist feminism BainsBane Apr 2014 #273

You and I will just have to disagree. Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #283

I would like to extend appreciation to you. MadrasT Apr 2014 #308

Thanks... I think! Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #309

LOL. Just for that I am kicking it again. MadrasT Apr 2014 #310

Right on. Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #311

self deleted lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #169

Excuse me? BainsBane Apr 2014 #171

Interesting allegation. Or maybe a false memory? LanternWaste Mar 2014 #17

From the link to Snopes: Maedhros Mar 2014 #46

as someone who has been on the recieving end of penatrive intercourse and who is male dsc Mar 2014 #89

I think that Dworkin was using "violent" differently than what many are imagining. Maedhros Mar 2014 #101

that I can buy dsc Mar 2014 #104

Part of what must be considered is the mechanics of the act Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #138

Think also of the language used Scootaloo Mar 2014 #158

+1. good stuff. love our words. beyond meaning. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #167

loved Gloria Steinem's take on the "envelopement" Scout Apr 2014 #221

Sounds ve-e-l-l-ly intelesting. Eleanors38 Apr 2014 #295

You did, eh? Well, then, quote it from the publication, and MineralMan Mar 2014 #23

I posted the date...I believe it was 1978. Atman Mar 2014 #26

Actually, it was the April, 1987 issue. MineralMan Mar 2014 #34

No, it was in 1978. I know because I know where I was living at the time. Atman Mar 2014 #42

I can find no reference to an interview of Dworkin in Penthouse MineralMan Mar 2014 #50

I will make an admission of guilt here! (See, I'm an honest guy!) Atman Mar 2014 #45

"Camile Paglia." ha ha ha ha. i am laughing, cause the seabeyond Mar 2014 #49

So, you can't really remember, but you post anyhow. MineralMan Mar 2014 #60

Well, no...it would appear my memory is just fine. Atman Mar 2014 #61

I'm not being insulting. I'm saying you misstated something, and then MineralMan Mar 2014 #62

I find that being honest is never embarassing. Atman Mar 2014 #65

I have read the entire thread and all posts in it. MineralMan Mar 2014 #69

I made no joke about it. Please...post my "joke." Atman Mar 2014 #73

Do you get that the problem there wasn't Bain responding to you, but your insistence on something Squinch Mar 2014 #72

I get the problem is that Bain constantly twists people's post into bullshit that was never said. Atman Mar 2014 #77

Do you see that you are doing exactly what you are accusing her of doing? Squinch Mar 2014 #81

The difference is specifics. Atman Mar 2014 #86

Making shit up, there, aren't you? Saying she said something that she never said, aren't you? Squinch Mar 2014 #87

Nope. Stand by my statement. Bain does this every day. Atman Mar 2014 #88

And you're doing it today. Squinch Mar 2014 #91

No, I am not. Atman Mar 2014 #92

Well, then, by all means, keep reading her posts closely and complaining about them! Squinch Mar 2014 #93

I'm making up NOTHING. Atman Mar 2014 #96

You CAN'T be done! She'll never repent unless you keep complaining about her! Squinch Mar 2014 #100

Give it a rest. Desert805 Mar 2014 #106

And might YOU be projecting here? Squinch Mar 2014 #109

This isn't gonna be a big insult laden exchange. Desert805 Mar 2014 #112

Given your insult laden salvo, it's too late to decide it's not going to be insult laden. Squinch Mar 2014 #113

Keep trying. Desert805 Mar 2014 #115

Given that you showed up out of the blue to join the conversation, it appears you do. Squinch Mar 2014 #118

I think the better question is WHO he might be projecting. Sheldon Cooper Mar 2014 #124

Clearly. Isn't it nice when the kids come back to visit? Squinch Mar 2014 #125

We don't even get a chance to miss them and then *poof* they're back again. Sheldon Cooper Mar 2014 #126

They grow and clone themselves so fast! Squinch Mar 2014 #127

In this case you just admitted to being honestly wrong Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #143

Uh, wow Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #142

you mean mercuryblues Mar 2014 #117

This might help a bit: Raine1967 Mar 2014 #121

I have quoted from that interview Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #144

so what if she did? does she represent all feminists. is she even that imp in the feminist movement? La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2014 #10

I believe there would be a lot to discuss with Dworkin Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #78

pulling my copy of "Intercourse" off the shelf here . . . . zazen Mar 2014 #11

Precisely Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #19

She refers to the "normal fuck for the normal man" in the book quotes NickB79 Mar 2014 #32

No. Atman Mar 2014 #37

husbands were allowed to legally rape his wife. nt seabeyond Mar 2014 #43

yes. a husband was still legally allowed to rape his wife. seabeyond Mar 2014 #40

I understand it was legal. I wanted to know if it was normal NickB79 Mar 2014 #44

we do not know most husbands or their attitude of sex in the 70's, do we. seabeyond Mar 2014 #47

OK, I can see that. So now that spousal rape is illegal NickB79 Mar 2014 #54

some of us .... women, feel it is significant that only a couple decades ago, it was legal to RAPE seabeyond Mar 2014 #64

It's not as if these ideas, these "norms," just disappear within a generation or two. nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #141

I'm not sure it's possible to fairly answer this question. Lyric Apr 2014 #207

I have argued the same across different threads. KitSileya Apr 2014 #211

legal rape. and then we wonder why rapists get confised. but hey.... do not be mentioning that seabeyond Apr 2014 #215

Until fairly recent times Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #53

Glad I grew up in the 90's instead if that's the case NickB79 Mar 2014 #56

My generation has a lot to answer for, but then, we were part of the Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #59

meh. Every generation does that. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #116

Well, I hope never to become part of the "establishment" Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #128

I'm sure it depends on the individual. Then and now. nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #139

Yes, speaking as a married woman in 1971, it was very very much the NORM. n/t 2banon Apr 2014 #244

Since I haven't read the book NickB79 Mar 2014 #41

she does slightly in the beginning, but I'd look to her surviving partner John Stoltenberg zazen Mar 2014 #76

constructs and other rhetorical acrobatics Supersedeas Apr 2014 #248

But but but...alleged comments she made decades ago prove Rex Mar 2014 #12

Of course, no one said that. Atman Mar 2014 #15

Please cite the title of the publication Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #21

No page numbers. Must not be true. Atman Mar 2014 #31

I am quoting her from sources Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #71

The snopes article is about Catherine MacKinnon. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #83

The snopes' article also says Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #90

It says she disavowed it. Whether or not she uttered that precise combination of words is Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #95

Do we get to "disavow" previous DU posts? Atman Mar 2014 #98

You have already admitted in other posts in this thread Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #150

You have pulled a cluster of senetences out Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #133

It's relevant if you want to talk about the philosophical gist of her work. Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #164

not true. there is a difference between rape, as you and others want to make it. and violent seabeyond Apr 2014 #170

I think you're responding to someone else's post, not mine. Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #176

yes. i do not think you can take what she actually said, and say it is the same as saying all sex seabeyond Apr 2014 #179

I've given several examples of things she actually DID say, and they're all over the map. Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #181

+1 n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #174

True Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #194

Here's the thing. First off, I believe the specific quote we're discussing comes from "Our Blood". Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #235

Rather than address various quotes Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #239

Are you qualified to assert general tenets about Dworkin's work? Maedhros Apr 2014 #277

Well, that's certainly a fascinating opinion you have there. Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #284

Well, to make a claim of understanding of an author's "general tenets" implies more Maedhros Apr 2014 #285

It's not limited sources. That's a fairly extensive excerpt, and its by no means the only bit I'm Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #286

No thank you. You are taking a belligerent tone. Maedhros Apr 2014 #289

Heh Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #299

That last one is bizarre. As though an erection weren't a matter of simple biology, which it is. nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #145

with so little there, we are all clueless what she was saying. it is worthless to seabeyond Mar 2014 #152

Very true. n/t nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #163

Maybe if you say it, it'll be okay. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #162

Without knowing much about Ms. Dworkin, I have a question NickB79 Mar 2014 #51

You have to actually read when she said. I have posted Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #57

. LadyHawkAZ Mar 2014 #132

Oh they didn't? There is a MEGA thread in GD that's premise is JUST THAT. Rex Mar 2014 #25

Sincerely...I'm not sure what you're saying. Atman Mar 2014 #29

Making fun of another thread in GD...the premise is weak Rex Mar 2014 #30

Thanks. Atman Mar 2014 #33

Yeah sorry, I guess I should have given more detail in the first reply. Rex Mar 2014 #36

The premise is, indeed, weak. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #110

She should not be held as the 'gold standard' for if today we have a rape culture in America. Rex Mar 2014 #122

No, it should not. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #123

Actually, someone did say that: thucythucy Apr 2014 #231

ha ha ha. ya. that. lol. thanks for the laugh. i am outta here. nt seabeyond Mar 2014 #22

"Nobody said that." Really? There is a MEGA thread on it in GD! Rex Mar 2014 #27

No, she didn't LadyHawkAZ Mar 2014 #13

She was describing intercourse Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #48

I see the outrage BainsBane Mar 2014 #52

Or that they simply prefer sex on their terms Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #55

Oh, yes BainsBane Mar 2014 #58

yep yep yep. nt seabeyond Mar 2014 #74

yes yes yes. oh, i like the smart talk. you guys are getting me all that. seabeyond Mar 2014 #70

"claptrap" like coitus Major Nikon Apr 2014 #229

No... It's just more bullshit MRA's like to spread Ohio Joe Mar 2014 #35

weird--I reread the posts (including mine) on Dworkin's memorial tribute wall on Sunday zazen Mar 2014 #80

Huh? What? Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #85

Excuse me ... In_The_Wind Mar 2014 #99

Juror #3 has a good question... Ohio Joe Mar 2014 #120

Does it really matter what she said exactly? CFLDem Mar 2014 #94

I think I would prefer a more professional Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #130

Her own husband didn't believe her rape account Major Nikon Apr 2014 #202

Source please... Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #213

... Major Nikon Apr 2014 #219

Thank you, Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #225

I have no idea what conditions she did or didn't have Major Nikon Apr 2014 #227

A disconnect from your reality, sure, but not from hers. Maedhros Apr 2014 #281

The idea that everyone gets their own personal reality is not a good one Major Nikon Apr 2014 #287

Who here read Dworkin in law school? RainDog Apr 2014 #290

She also lost her legal battles Major Nikon Apr 2014 #292

Dworkin was not an academic RainDog Apr 2014 #301

One's reality is the sum of one's experiences. Maedhros Apr 2014 #291

Nobody but the insane and the GOP get their own version of facts and reality Major Nikon Apr 2014 #298

You've missed the point. Probably on purpose. Maedhros Apr 2014 #300

Perhaps because I didn't agree with it Major Nikon Apr 2014 #304

So were the Marquis de Sade, Nietzsche, and (arguably) Hunter S. Thompson. nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #147

And no she didn't say it CFLDem Mar 2014 #97

you mean "implied," not inferred, and your grammatically incorrect insult to her memory is pathetic zazen Mar 2014 #103

So what did she mean about penetrative sex being "immune to reform?" Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #107

I don't have that book, but you could start with reading works by her ex-partner John Stoltenberg zazen Mar 2014 #114

Stoltenberg identifies as Gay, and they repeatedly said no, they didn't have sex. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #119

Thank you. That was very well said. nomorenomore08 Mar 2014 #149

Well, trying to derive meaning from a sentence fragment Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #131

Are you suggesting I made it up? I didn't. Warren DeMontague Mar 2014 #157

can you provide the link that you copy and pasted that from? boston bean Apr 2014 #175

Why? Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #177

No. I wanted to read the entire passage. boston bean Apr 2014 #193

If you google "Andrea Dworkin Our Blood", one of the first results is a pdf link. Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #233

Nope, not suggesting that at all Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #196

Again, you need to read the context Kelvin Mace Mar 2014 #129

Shame on you. You're not a proper democrat unless you assist with rehabilitating her reputation. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #173

But she did say Capt. Obvious Mar 2014 #108

It is a rare individual indeed Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #198

you are good. you are so patient. you are so respectful in your responses. seabeyond Apr 2014 #200

The mens groups has a real infatuation with her boston bean Mar 2014 #159

ha ha. ya. a while back SOME of the men liked getting a most unappealing picture to seabeyond Apr 2014 #172

A gender group discussing gender subjects Major Nikon Apr 2014 #204

The mere act of sexual intercourse can mean many different things to different people. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #165

My understanding is that she was speaking of a womans "duty". boston bean Apr 2014 #166

I think it's a good question to ask, in general - are any of us truly "free" to make choices? nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #168

Not to mention, that until 1993, in some places, marital duty by law. KitSileya Apr 2014 #188

But anyone who objects to any of this is just a "feminazi" (per MRA-speak). nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #190

Yup. Very disappointing every time these topics are discussed on DU. KitSileya Apr 2014 #191

"Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer..." davidn3600 Apr 2014 #189

I am pressed for time at the moment, but am willing to offer Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #197

You can CFLDem Apr 2014 #192

Their claim is that coitus under the patriarchy is harmful and not fully consensual Major Nikon Apr 2014 #201

this quote in the 70's when it was legal for a husband to rape a wife, kinda is their point. seabeyond Apr 2014 #203

Dworkin's book, Intercourse wasn't published until 1987 Major Nikon Apr 2014 #205

Still legal to rape wife in some states into the nineties seabeyond Apr 2014 #206

Which is tangential to Dworkin's et al claims Major Nikon Apr 2014 #208

read lyric above. i am not wasting any more time with discussion. that a husband is legally seabeyond Apr 2014 #209

Did you actually read Dworkin's book, Intercourse? Major Nikon Apr 2014 #210

i have been doing you so long, we know each others steps. now, intercourse..... seabeyond Apr 2014 #214

So you are convinced I'm wrong about a subject you are ignorant by your own admission Major Nikon Apr 2014 #218

i know you are wrong cause you discount the time she was addressing, you have to change her words seabeyond Apr 2014 #220

So I'm wrong because someone else may think I'm wrong Major Nikon Apr 2014 #222

no. i clearly expressed three reasons you were wrong. and lookie, you HAD to change my words... lol seabeyond Apr 2014 #223

Point of order Major Nikon Apr 2014 #224

First, Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #212

Okay, then do you agree with and approve of what she did say? lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #216

Defending the accuracy and context of a person's quotes Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #238

Funny, I'm not reminded of the condition of slaves in the US when I think of Dworkin. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #240

Really? Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #241

I didn't really want to get into this RainDog Apr 2014 #242

Well said. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #245

Dworkin should have stuck to "I think that" RainDog Apr 2014 #249

That right there is why YOU are one of my favorite DU members. Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #261

Oh. I thought it was b/c I liked music other than the GD RainDog Apr 2014 #270

Historical context is somewhat relevant Major Nikon Apr 2014 #217

We have no idea what Dworkin would Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #226

I'm not convinced her points were ever all that relevant Major Nikon Apr 2014 #228

Thanks for posting this. I always saw the way Dworkin's "quote" was twisted thucythucy Apr 2014 #232

Ooh! Ooh! A feminism thread! KamaAina Apr 2014 #246

I think you are getting in at the end of the dust up. Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #247

I'm willing to concede... NaturalHigh Apr 2014 #302

It's complicated Kelvin Mace Apr 2014 #305