General Discussion

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)

1. The Second International discussed this a long time ago......

Sat Apr 5, 2014, 10:27 AM

Apr 2014

A bourgeois political system under capitalism will not ALLOW itself to be voted out of power. And even if it DID allow the vote, the judiciary would not allow the change to be instituted.

Under capitalism it's a rigged game all around and that INCLUDES elections. However as a Trotskyist, I'll never stand in the way of people who want to vote. If nothing else, just to prove to them that they're wrong about what it will get them. It's called "putting to the test".

The problem is NOT that revolutionaries (in most cases anyway) stand in the way of elections. The problem is that reformists don't stand with revolutionaries, even if they disagree with them. It's a historical fact that the ONLY time there are REAL changes made to the capitalist system to the benefit of the working class is when the system itself is under realistic stress from a revolutionary movement that wants to do away with capitalism itself. THEN the capitalists will grudgingly give up part of their power in order to save the whole rotten system. So if the reformists want to see a real change and a more humanistic version of capitalism, they should support the revolutionaries.

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How about a Voters' Revolution? [View all] MineralMan Apr 2014 OP

The Second International discussed this a long time ago...... socialist_n_TN Apr 2014 #1

You know, I think you're incorrect in this. MineralMan Apr 2014 #6

Here's a thought experiment: Maedhros Apr 2014 #102

It would stand. And I'm not talking about Presidential elections MineralMan Apr 2014 #104

I'm considering a hypothetical (and entirely unlikely) scenario in which Maedhros Apr 2014 #113

I don't really deal in extremely unlikely hypothetical situations. MineralMan Apr 2014 #123

Impossible, yes, but it does say something about the true nature of our democracy Maedhros Apr 2014 #131

Interesting point. Seems it's already been put to the test, multiple times... WhaTHellsgoingonhere Apr 2014 #33

Yep.......... socialist_n_TN Apr 2014 #40

Gotta agree, too. If we got the other half out there voting, we'd be just Nay Apr 2014 #46

Where would we be today if Americans didn't let the wealthy ruling class... WhaTHellsgoingonhere Apr 2014 #72

Agree 100% nt TBF Apr 2014 #77

Nailed it. Zorra Apr 2014 #144

Well said. I vote to try to make incremental social progress and "revolt" to Zorra Apr 2014 #41

Actually I think that there IS a fairly easy interconnection.... socialist_n_TN Apr 2014 #59

If I can possibly ease my oppression by voting, I'm going to vote. Zorra Apr 2014 #145

k&r YOUR POST! Demeter Apr 2014 #58

I think the country is too divided for a Revolution yeoman6987 Apr 2014 #76

It's a rigged game because it's so staggeringly expensive to run Warpy Apr 2014 #110

How about some candidates actually worth voting FOR? 99Forever Apr 2014 #2

How about those that DEMAND better candidates.....FIND some... VanillaRhapsody Apr 2014 #4

How about you encourage some of those to run, MineralMan Apr 2014 #7

Perhaps if the... 99Forever Apr 2014 #12

The Democratic Party is organized from the MineralMan Apr 2014 #18

Nahhh, It's easier to whine about what they won't/aren't doing. eom. 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #27

So I've noticed. And when a workable idea is MineralMan Apr 2014 #29

Give it a rest. 99Forever Apr 2014 #28

Yeah, I've been a delegate, too. MineralMan Apr 2014 #30

Candidates who haven't been bought... polichick Apr 2014 #13

Cause people are stupid and will vote for the hedge fund manager over the school teacher Exultant Democracy Apr 2014 #34

I won't. 99Forever Apr 2014 #37

One smart person doesn't mean people aren't stupid in general. Exultant Democracy Apr 2014 #48

Don't forget Ronnie Rayguns TWICE. 99Forever Apr 2014 #88

No, they're not, and they won't, necessarily. MineralMan Apr 2014 #74

And that will never happen until there is a grass roots takeover zeemike Apr 2014 #68

True that. 99Forever Apr 2014 #85

The system works! Problem is, the people Americans allow to slither into the RKP5637 Apr 2014 #3

Thank you. Far too many people have disappeared from the pool of MineralMan Apr 2014 #14

Not too long ago, Jamaal510 Apr 2014 #105

Yes, quite true, I've heard that too. Sadly people become brainwashed, group RKP5637 Apr 2014 #119

2008 was a "voters' revolution" of sorts. polichick Apr 2014 #5

Actually, you're partly correct. MineralMan Apr 2014 #9

I'm committed to not falling for any more Trojan horses... polichick Apr 2014 #11

What are you doing to get better candidates, polichick? MineralMan Apr 2014 #15

Unlike you, I don't believe the normal routes work in this environment... polichick Apr 2014 #21

So, your answer is that you are doing nothing to help MineralMan Apr 2014 #23

I knew you'd spin it like that but gave you the benefit of the doubt... polichick Apr 2014 #24

The Third Way is calling for total enfranchisement and turnout? MineralMan Apr 2014 #25

Well, how about working for publicly funded elections in your state, then? (nt) PotatoChip Apr 2014 #78

There's an excellent idea. Thanks! MineralMan Apr 2014 #79

Ok BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #92

Yes! n/t DevineBovine Apr 2014 #118

I have said more than once around here . . . Brigid Apr 2014 #8

Thank you. You are correct. We've seen some of that already, MineralMan Apr 2014 #10

Like these lines? Autumn Apr 2014 #125

Speaking as a gerrymandered voter, it won't work. mmonk Apr 2014 #16

You're wrong. In your district, what is the turnout MineralMan Apr 2014 #19

+1 ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #31

It's also very obvious. MineralMan Apr 2014 #36

It goes unrecognized ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2014 #38

^^this^^. What if everyone here on DU did as much political work as say, StruggleforProgress? nt okaawhatever Apr 2014 #54

We've done voter drives. We increased voter turnout. mmonk Apr 2014 #129

Not sexy enough for the armchair revolutionary, sufrommich Apr 2014 #17

Not sexy enough, and a lot more work. MineralMan Apr 2014 #20

Sometimes "apathy" is mistaken for "fatigue" BumRushDaShow Apr 2014 #22

Here's what I think about that: MineralMan Apr 2014 #26

2008 and after was a change election that the Dems won..... socialist_n_TN Apr 2014 #39

"The current system is broken." Absolutely. polichick Apr 2014 #44

One thorn that would need to be overcome BumRushDaShow Apr 2014 #43

I don't think it will be easy, but MineralMan Apr 2014 #47

Good luck with your run! BumRushDaShow Apr 2014 #52

K&R This is precisely what The Founders envisioned MannyGoldstein Apr 2014 #32

There you go. In the United States, we can have MineralMan Apr 2014 #35

2014: Voter Turnout vs Votes Counted WhaTHellsgoingonhere Apr 2014 #42

Why do you still have 'polling places' with 'polling hours? Bluenorthwest Apr 2014 #60

For the most part, no one is wasting time or resources in Illinois or the blue Northwest WhaTHellsgoingonhere Apr 2014 #71

Mineral Man, your "No Brainer" call to get people voting is beyond the brains of many DU'ers NBachers Apr 2014 #45

This is an example of what NOT to do. n/t 2banon Apr 2014 #51

All of those things you put in quotes are saying: MineralMan Apr 2014 #64

I appreciate the tone, intent and content of this post, and so I rec'd it. 2banon Apr 2014 #49

Let's get behind Represent.Us h2ebits Apr 2014 #50

Voting can change things? Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #53

Yes. It can, and it does. MineralMan Apr 2014 #66

And I would also echo... Lifelong Protester Apr 2014 #80

Thank you. Information is key. MineralMan Apr 2014 #81

Correct! Lifelong Protester Apr 2014 #83

This is the pool that must be tapped, they are not going to be attracted by the offerings in pursuit TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #55

This is naive Android3.14 Apr 2014 #56

+ a million. djean111 Apr 2014 #61

You understand that your 'imagine if the Occupy Movement' idea is basicall the same Bluenorthwest Apr 2014 #63

Occupy is not and was not interested in aligning itself with either the Dems or the GOP. djean111 Apr 2014 #73

I did not say they were, it was you who 'imagined' that. The OP is not so different Bluenorthwest Apr 2014 #126

Read the OP again Android3.14 Apr 2014 #111

K & R for the OP mountain grammy Apr 2014 #57

Thank you, grammy, for the support. MineralMan Apr 2014 #69

But you forget that Americans are far too busy with Honey Boo Boo, Duck Dynasty, world wide wally Apr 2014 #62

More excuses. MineralMan Apr 2014 #65

Sorry. We can't vote away our problems radiclib Apr 2014 #67

Oh, yes we can. MineralMan Apr 2014 #70

Mineral Man BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #100

You have that absolutely right. And this is not being taken into consideration. Or is ignored. djean111 Apr 2014 #106

Here's an Example of What Voters Can Do: MineralMan Apr 2014 #75

It's the best idea I've seen here in many a long moon, MineralMan ReRe Apr 2014 #82

Thank you, and your idea is an excellent one. MineralMan Apr 2014 #84

Mineral Man BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #86

You know, I'm not really having a hard time mobilizing voters. MineralMan Apr 2014 #89

You BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #91

Yah, I'll keep that in mind, as I continue to do what has MineralMan Apr 2014 #93

uh, yes? BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #94

Again, thanks for your advice. MineralMan Apr 2014 #95

That is exactly how the voters in Venezuela threw OUT their 1% Oligarchs, bvar22 Apr 2014 #87

The validity and transparency of our elections varies from state to state. MineralMan Apr 2014 #124

mm minn does have a good election system compared to many states questionseverything Apr 2014 #128

A lot of people feel as you do. I disagree, though. MineralMan Apr 2014 #130

i showed you an example where questionseverything Apr 2014 #137

I'm not saying that such things do not happen. MineralMan Apr 2014 #138

thank you for admitting it happens questionseverything Apr 2014 #139

I live in a state where recounts actually work. MineralMan Apr 2014 #140

minn is definately better than most questionseverything Apr 2014 #141

Did you follow the MN recounts? MineralMan Apr 2014 #142

i followed frankens recount questionseverything Apr 2014 #143

What's needed more than anything is a change to the very structure of the electoral process. NuclearDem Apr 2014 #90

That might be needed, but such changes have to have MineralMan Apr 2014 #99

the "revolutionaries" aren't the people not showing up to vote... brooklynite Apr 2014 #96

I realize that. I'm talking about getting all those people who MineralMan Apr 2014 #97

Yes, but.. BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #98

Yes. And if everyone turns out, the primary election system will take MineralMan Apr 2014 #101

Once you've "excised the center-right Democrats", how do you plan to win... brooklynite Apr 2014 #112

Correct BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #114

"he "revolutionaries" aren't a large enough segment of society to vote change into office" 2banon Apr 2014 #103

Sure. That would be great. MineralMan Apr 2014 #107

I'm specifically including that segment in my point... 2banon Apr 2014 #108

Really, I wouldn't use the strategy of telling people to vote. MineralMan Apr 2014 #109

You know what has historically motivated large groups of people? BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #115

The processes that keep us at a near 50% balance... gulliver Apr 2014 #116

And it is our job to counter that MineralMan Apr 2014 #117

It probably needs to go viral. gulliver Apr 2014 #120

Question BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #122

Answer gulliver Apr 2014 #127

So BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #132

I do appreciate the concern of course. gulliver Apr 2014 #133

Unlikely BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #134

Again, I do appreciate the concern. gulliver Apr 2014 #135

Ok, listen BlindTiresias Apr 2014 #136

You need to get pele registered, and insure they have the proper ids, they help those that need it lostincalifornia Apr 2014 #121

This. It will be difficult but it will happen. But "political" people will need to become active. Chathamization Apr 2014 #146

people enjoy talk of revolution on the internet too much JI7 Apr 2014 #147

Talking about revolution is a popular way to pass the time. MineralMan Apr 2014 #148