General Discussion

thucythucy

(9,096 posts)

189. So because we can't "sell" the idea of unified self defense

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 10:35 AM

Apr 2014

to Europeans, we need to foot the bill for their security into the indefinite future?

The bearing history has on the current situation is that the European powers, particularly Germany/France/UK, are capable of defending themselves. As I've repeatedly mentioned now, Germany alone defeated or nearly defeated Russia in two world wars. In those situations it was Russia that needed help defending itself. So yes, I envision a situation where Germany would be able to repel Russia, so laugh away.

But as long as the US feels compelled to foot the bill for Europe, I'm sure the Europeans will be very happy to accept our help and use their tax dollars for things like education, mass transit, health care, infrastructure--stuff we say we can't afford because we dump our own money into "defense."

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To those who'd say a bigger U.S. war budget would have stopped Putin...this sobering fact: [View all] Ken Burch Apr 2014 OP

I actually think we do need to focus our military in Europe and need more troops AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #1

We have 1.5 million active duty soldiers, second only to China. Lasher Apr 2014 #2

Thanks for the graphs, but that's not what I mean AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #19

I think we are making the same point: Too many missions. Lasher Apr 2014 #24

Well, I don't see why we shouldn't defend Europe? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #28

Don't you see anything wrong with that arrangement? Lasher Apr 2014 #29

To be fair to the Europeans AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #37

We should help defend our NATO allies. Lasher Apr 2014 #38

Yeah but that also means heavily increasing the US presence there AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #43

No it doesn't. Lasher Apr 2014 #49

The US presence as it is cannot defend Europe properly AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #52

The NATO presence. NATO! NATO! Lasher Apr 2014 #69

Why do you keep tagging me with claiming it has sole responsibility? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #71

Europe will never be "up to snuff" as long as naive Americans like you would foot their bills. Lasher Apr 2014 #76

Europe will never be "up to snuff" due to population and size... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #86

European nations pangaia Apr 2014 #108

But they're not willing AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #138

That is on them. We are not their parents or whatever strange relationship you think is in play here TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #206

Europe couldn't defend us if they wanted to, too small AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #207

Actually you being 19 ismnotwasm Apr 2014 #144

Hmm? Yes I do plan to join, but you confuse my support for conscription. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #146

So you plan to join the military, pangaia Apr 2014 #159

I'll only accept a posting I believe is right, yeah. So no combat roles for me. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #163

So you will enlist in, say, the Army, pangaia Apr 2014 #165

Depends on my role in where I'm sent AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #168

Good luck with that. pangaia Apr 2014 #169

Thanks, but how am I naive? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #170

If you were not naive, you would follow. pangaia Apr 2014 #173

Kind of circular no? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #174

Yes, it is circular. pangaia Apr 2014 #179

So you don't see a problem with circular reasoning? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #180

I didn't say anything about circular reasoning. pangaia Apr 2014 #181

You're using circular reasoning now though. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #182

It's not confusing to those who've read history ismnotwasm Apr 2014 #164

How am I all over the place with my opinion? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #166

Perhaps it's me ismnotwasm Apr 2014 #175

I'm going into the military to go into school actually :P AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #177

" However, I do think some mandatory service would be good for society, " pangaia Apr 2014 #54

Solidarity, and it expands the burden to the whole of society. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #58

No doubt the military would love to do away with a civilian population. L0oniX Apr 2014 #104

Solidarity? pangaia Apr 2014 #110

More like this AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #140

Who cares about society? We should all be in the military so we can all kill together... L0oniX Apr 2014 #105

So when is Europe going to chip in and help us all pay for our massive military? L0oniX Apr 2014 #106

You just made a great point. Separation Apr 2014 #42

I see you are picking up what I am laying down. Lasher Apr 2014 #45

I think you can have both AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #55

But the problem is, we don't have both. Lasher Apr 2014 #68

I think defending Europe should be among our top priorities. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #70

I think bankrolling Europe should be among our lowest priorities. Lasher Apr 2014 #80

At least you admit it AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #90

Another one to add to the government list of people who disagree with the fearless leaders. L0oniX Apr 2014 #114

Yea ...lets cut our social programs so we can pump up our military some more. L0oniX Apr 2014 #113

Why did we open this thread LOonix? Generic Other Apr 2014 #155

We're being invaded by the Bill Kristol cult. L0oniX Apr 2014 #185

That is an insane desire. JackRiddler Apr 2014 #87

Yeah, it's not like NATO kept Europe safe at all... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #97

NATO threatened nuclear war. JackRiddler Apr 2014 #99

Not really, MAD exists between any nation with nukes. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #137

So you agree with Bill Kristol. Well then I guess we know which side your on. L0oniX Apr 2014 #116

No doubt their minions are here at work L0oniX Apr 2014 #115

We don't deserve an effective military.. sendero Apr 2014 #192

We deserve to be open to attack because of some mistakes? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #193

No one... sendero Apr 2014 #195

No one is going to attack us because we have a military that can repel them. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #196

I will concede.. sendero Apr 2014 #197

You're right that the military needs radical restructering AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #199

Maybe we should start up a draft, do you think? raccoon Apr 2014 #3

Well actually I do think we need a draft AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #18

If Russia is such a threat to "Europe" JackRiddler Apr 2014 #88

Why can't the 50 US states defend themselves? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #98

To compare individual American states to the NATO alliance thucythucy Apr 2014 #107

"is little short of absurd. " It would be absurd if I made that argument :P AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #141

So when you ask "Why can't the 50 states defend themselves" thucythucy Apr 2014 #157

You said I compared NATO to the US. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #160

That's what we call epic false equivalency. L0oniX Apr 2014 #112

Actually, that is (sort of) what the Founders of the Constitution envisioned: Maedhros Apr 2014 #131

Yeah but that was in the 1700s AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #139

From one another? Probably. Maedhros Apr 2014 #151

How do you figure? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #152

In the absence of the buildup of a massive Federal army during the Civil War, Maedhros Apr 2014 #153

Yeah but not in 2014... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #154

The country would be much different that it is today. Maedhros Apr 2014 #158

So you would favor this situation? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #162

Well, the Federal system is too entrenched to change at this late date. Maedhros Apr 2014 #171

I just assumed it would mean a more chaotic and less efficient and productive US? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #172

Is Europe in a state of utter chaos? [n/t] Maedhros Apr 2014 #176

Yeah, with the eurocrisis and all? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #178

I wouldn't call it chaos. Maedhros Apr 2014 #188

I was under the impression Europe is in a depression right now. I wouldn't call that stability. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #190

There have been no coups or major wars (outside of the Yugoslavia breakup). Maedhros Apr 2014 #200

Yeah I would say the political situation in Europe and the US is very unstable AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #201

What is the mission and why should we be on it? TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #5

I thought it was the purpose of NATO? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #20

The purpose of NATO is for us to put more troops into Europe? TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #30

The purpose is to defend Europe, which we can't do right now. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #34

The purpose of NATO is for mutual defense of its member states. Lasher Apr 2014 #39

Russia is threatening NATO members AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #40

Ukraine is a non-aligned state. Lasher Apr 2014 #41

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO#Participating_countries AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #44

NATO member states agree to mutual defense in response to an attack by any external party. Lasher Apr 2014 #47

But I'm not talking about just Ukraine. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #51

You just tried to move the goalpost. Lasher Apr 2014 #79

First of all, yes it does AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #89

Not exactly, it is a mutual defense treaty. We don't have primary responsibility so if allies cannot TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #65

We're not going broke helping Europe have an adaquete defense per NATO AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #66

That's eminently debatable. This is a war profiteers' country. n/t cprise Apr 2014 #78

Um...everything is "debatable". Thanks for putting that out. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #95

^^^this^^^ L0oniX Apr 2014 #117

They can if they want to, they choose not to and I don't blame them but I'm not TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #84

Well, then you want us to leave NATO and leave all our security deals with Europe AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #96

No, I'm saying they have obligations to their own security and we are not Daddy Warbucks TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #120

But NATO is mutual defense and we have a part AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #125

What treaty obligation are you saying we are not in compliance with now? TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #202

Starts with an N, ends with an O. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #203

What are in we in violation of? TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #204

I said so already AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #205

No, you hinted. What is your actual answer? TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #208

.... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #209

It starts with a "N" and ends with an "O" is a hint not a direct answer. Are you (foolishly TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #212

Come on, do I really have to point it out for you? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #213

Absolutely TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #215

Estonia? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #217

What about Estonia? TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #218

You're either naive or working. I have friends in the UK, Poland, Germany and Italy. L0oniX Apr 2014 #111

It's not our fucking job. L0oniX Apr 2014 #109

Bwahahahahah ...whatever L0oniX Apr 2014 #9

Witty rebuttal :P AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #21

LMAO Enthusiast Apr 2014 #12

Again, very witty rebuttal :P AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #22

Welcome to DU. think Apr 2014 #13

Thanks :) AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #17

Don't let a spirited debate make you feel unwelcome, Liz. Lasher Apr 2014 #48

No worries :) AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #50

Then you should be happy here at DU. Lasher Apr 2014 #81

I'll certainly try to enjoy it here :) AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #85

Wow, I must say you are quite mature for a 19 yr. old. Kingofalldems Apr 2014 #122

I am? Thanks! AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #123

the problem is the insane idea that our military should be anywhere other then US soil. bowens43 Apr 2014 #135

We can project all the power we need. Octafish Apr 2014 #136

So we need to be East Germany, having US troops all here for what? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #143

Here's what I need to know malaise Apr 2014 #4

Thank you, exactly what I think newfie11 Apr 2014 #6

For a simple reason. Igel Apr 2014 #10

Confirmation bias yup nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #31

So those Russian troops in Crimea were not nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #32

Exactly, I'm tired of everyone seeing the US as the bad guy in every situation. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #35

Yea the truth gets tiring too. Hey you remember Iraq WMD's? L0oniX Apr 2014 #119

Yeah, because it's not like Russia hasn't invaded anyone... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #126

Here we go again ... nt TBF Apr 2014 #129

Yeah, because it's not like the USA hasn't invaded anyone. L0oniX Apr 2014 #183

By playing world police we are subsidizing other countries defense. L0oniX Apr 2014 #7

Well, do tell that to the European countries that keep cutting their defense budgets AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #36

"So either we help them or throw them to the wolves." pffft Dependent on us are they? Fuck that! L0oniX Apr 2014 #53

Bravo.. pangaia Apr 2014 #56

So in other words, some childish condemnation of the military AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #61

Why is it "our job" to "defend Europe" (from whom)? This sounds like a Cold War-era fantasy anneboleyn Apr 2014 #72

+1 L0oniX Apr 2014 #77

What's this fantasy that we're going broke due to "defending Europe"? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #92

Who are you working for? No doubt you are working. We've seen this before. L0oniX Apr 2014 #102

Okay Mr. Paranoid, I think I'm going to ignore you... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #134

Yes, There Are Paid Government Trolls On Social Media, Blogs, Forums And Websites L0oniX Apr 2014 #186

No ...I am with the majority that use intellect rather than stupid brute force. L0oniX Apr 2014 #75

Thanks for the laundry list of quotes in place of an actual argument AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #93

Enjoy the military psych. Must be nice to be so wise that you don't need the wisdom of others. L0oniX Apr 2014 #101

Yawn... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #133

Oh the irony. L0oniX Apr 2014 #184

I've heard that line before: Either/Or cprise Apr 2014 #82

Try selling that to the Europeans that they have to have a unified army AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #94

No reason why EU can't coordinate defence under NATO. n/t cprise Apr 2014 #121

Not every NATO member in Europe is in the EU for one. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #124

I used EU as shorthand for Europe cprise Apr 2014 #145

Well, then you're leaving out some NATO members :P AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #148

Oh, OK then. n/t cprise Apr 2014 #150

The EU is perfectly capable of defending themselves.. pangaia Apr 2014 #57

How are they capable of defending themselves? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #60

You'll need libraries worth of better arguments cprise Apr 2014 #83

Yet I'm making no such argument. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #91

Your argument has a certain circular quality to it: thucythucy Apr 2014 #118

I've made no such argument. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #127

So what would be your solution to this problem? Kingofalldems Apr 2014 #130

To Russian threats against Europe? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #142

For a start, yes. Kingofalldems Apr 2014 #147

That's easy, just show we can and will defend Europe and not tolerate their behavior. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #149

You need to brush up on your history. thucythucy Apr 2014 #156

Thanks for the history lesson AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #161

So because we can't "sell" the idea of unified self defense thucythucy Apr 2014 #189

Try selling the idea that Europe must defend itself to a crowd of Europeans, that should be AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #191

Oh I agree, at present European conventional forces desperately need our support. thucythucy Apr 2014 #194

Again, try selling the idea to Europeans, I think it would be an interesting discussion. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #198

You don't describe allies but rather dependents. Allies would come to our aid in need. TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #210

NATO is not killing our economy so just quit it with that AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #211

I didn't say it was, I said that the NATO treaty is not an economic suicide pact TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #214

I don't think protecting Europe is economic suicide AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #216

It is part of defense of Europe, though treestar Apr 2014 #8

But the USSR went extinct in 1991. Ken Burch Apr 2014 #14

We don't need to radically expand the US military budget, obviously the opposite AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #23

Who is suggesting that we 'totally disarm,' or pangaia Apr 2014 #59

Someone just suggested this on this very thread! :P AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #62

I didn't say I don't believe in defending 'our allies.' pangaia Apr 2014 #63

Our military is huge but its spread thin AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #67

OK. I can work with that. pangaia Apr 2014 #100

It's spread thin by being spread everywhere. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #132

"To those who'd say a bigger U.S. war budget would have stopped Putin" ?!? EX500rider Apr 2014 #11

Uh, pretty much every Republican in Congress. And most RW talk radio. Ken Burch Apr 2014 #15

Sorry, thought you meant here. n/t EX500rider Apr 2014 #16

Not to encourage more military spending, which would be a waste in my opinion, but... JVS Apr 2014 #25

It's only a 'sobering fact' to those who aren't already drunk with tearing down anything Obama does. randome Apr 2014 #26

Huh? 1000words Apr 2014 #167

This isn't an anti-Obama thread Ken Burch Apr 2014 #187

Death Budget? agbdf Apr 2014 #27

It's enough to defend our own territory from external attack. Ken Burch Apr 2014 #73

Oh no! The current commander in chief... JackRiddler Apr 2014 #103

LOL so true.. we spend more than everyone else combined... the fuck is spending more going to dionysus Apr 2014 #33

We have the most expensive military in the world....but we keep losing wars. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2014 #46

Adventures overseas....? Bigmack Apr 2014 #64

Cold War II may do to us what Cold War I did to the USSR.... Junkdrawer Apr 2014 #74

A Bigger War Budget Wouldn't have changed anything agbdf Apr 2014 #128