General Discussion

Helen Borg

(3,963 posts)

35. I used to be a feminist.

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 11:24 AM

Apr 2014

Used to go to meetings and all. Now I'm in a different phase of my life, I suppose. There was a lot of man hate at many of the meetings I was going to, and the goal seemed more to achieve domination, rather than equality. In any case, it made me uncomfortable because I don't want domination by women. I don't want a matriarchal society simply to replace the patriarchal one! I want equality. I want a society in which a male boss does not think I'm just a brainless bimbo, but I also don't want one in which I see some employees as just male bimbos. This is what I'm fighting for right now. The usual justification I hear for hating men, is that they hate us, plus they've had it good for so long and so it's time to make them pay. I don't buy it. BTW, I'm single, but I have a few good male friends and colleagues. I think young people also see this issue in terms of equality. The MRAs is an overreaction by males to some of these issues.

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Why the Men's Rights Movement Is Garbage [View all] boston bean Apr 2014 OP

Besides, they already have all the rights LiberalEsto Apr 2014 #1

Exactly! n/t PasadenaTrudy Apr 2014 #5

This message was self-deleted by its author Agschmid Apr 2014 #2

Right--none of those things are caused by feminism. nt raccoon Apr 2014 #3

But as you know, the MRA movement does blame feminism. boston bean Apr 2014 #4

+2 nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #254

MRA? Isn't that a bacterium? pinboy3niner Apr 2014 #6

MRS_A ? you sexist ! steve2470 Apr 2014 #178

Hey, at least I was sort of half right pinboy3niner Apr 2014 #180

DUzy! =) AverageJoe90 Apr 2014 #228

thank you ! *takes a bow* nt steve2470 Apr 2014 #229

How about the fact that JaneyVee Apr 2014 #7

Seems as though they would like to return to those days. boston bean Apr 2014 #9

As far as I'm concerned, American democracy is JaneyVee Apr 2014 #17

that is a good way to look at it. and my oldest son and i, in discussion seabeyond Apr 2014 #26

Shouldn't that be 49 years old? n/t A Simple Game Apr 2014 #42

I say it's even younger than that MrScorpio Apr 2014 #53

in some states you could legally rape.... legally rape, your wife up to what, 1993? nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #10

Awful. JaneyVee Apr 2014 #19

some much is jsut accepted with how we live, the way things were ect... but now. just looking seabeyond Apr 2014 #20

There are still people arguing that spousal rape shouldn't be a crime XemaSab Apr 2014 #22

yes. didnt i hear a congressman or one of those men say that shuold not be illegal, recently? seabeyond Apr 2014 #23

The MRA movement are also critical of the option of No Fault Divorce. boston bean Apr 2014 #25

too many women are walking. not taking their crap. hence, need for a foreign bride the perceive seabeyond Apr 2014 #28

i think what we have to acknowledge about MRA. it is not a small group of men. seabeyond Apr 2014 #8

You said it, Sea! CFLDem Apr 2014 #11

stay away from some of the comments there. boston bean Apr 2014 #12

reality BB, i have read them enough over the years to understand who they are. i have no desire seabeyond Apr 2014 #14

It's most of the GOP AgingAmerican Apr 2014 #132

I suppose I have my own societal prejudices. randome Apr 2014 #13

i do nto think there is anything more strong in a man than watching him speak out for his right seabeyond Apr 2014 #15

Oh, there are legitimate issues, I agree. randome Apr 2014 #16

totally agree.... seabeyond Apr 2014 #18

Where is the power and authority re: paternal rights ? karadax Apr 2014 #49

Care to extrapolate on those barriers? n/t HangOnKids Apr 2014 #59

Off the top of my head. Last month in NJ karadax Apr 2014 #66

Certain Situations HangOnKids Apr 2014 #69

ya. screw the womans right having the baby, it is ALL about da man. you kinda reinforce the OP. seabeyond Apr 2014 #71

Fuckin A HangOnKids Apr 2014 #128

What right, sir, do you have to be present at another person's medical procedures? msanthrope Apr 2014 #80

When that person is your child, it's a reasonable request. n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #168

I think it is a reasonable request to be notified that his child is being born. newcriminal Apr 2014 #201

An estranged boyfriend (or even husband) should not have an absolute right to be present nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #256

Her feelings should not trump the father's when we are discussing the child. newcriminal Apr 2014 #289

I agree. I said he should be able to visit after the birth even if the mother doesn't want him nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #296

If it was only his child, and legally his child, I could understand msanthrope Apr 2014 #206

Seriously, you must see the epic lameness of this argument. Squinch Apr 2014 #268

This example perfectly illustrates the MRA movement's petulant desire to regain male control over wo seabeyond Apr 2014 #271

It boils down to, "Paternity trumps all! The father's relationship to the child Squinch Apr 2014 #274

Off the top of my head: knightmaar Apr 2014 #294

But that's not feminism's fault. The idea that women are naturally better mothers comes from nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #255

This! knightmaar Apr 2014 #295

Very interesting thread ... oldhippie Apr 2014 #21

Here is how Francis takes care of any haters- snooper2 Apr 2014 #24

?????? oldhippie Apr 2014 #75

That's the problem. AtheistCrusader Apr 2014 #27

I am wondering if The Men's Movement will have waves like The Feminist Movement. Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2014 #34

interesting question.... BlancheSplanchnik Apr 2014 #44

thanks and thanks for the thoughtful reply and I imagine you would be correct in Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2014 #45

I think you're wrong. Nine Apr 2014 #173

When I said 'at worst' I was being extremely generous to the counter-position. AtheistCrusader Apr 2014 #174

ok, sorry if I misunderstood. (nt) Nine Apr 2014 #179

I can't find it, but the issue is probably mine. AtheistCrusader Apr 2014 #184

I can give you a very explicit example of what i think you're talking about. thucythucy Apr 2014 #209

When a few male rape victims started showing up at our local center, the women running it eridani Apr 2014 #247

This. Just This. Times a Million. AverageJoe90 Apr 2014 #231

I want to second what sea said - this isn't some small group of annoying nutbags on the net. redqueen Apr 2014 #29

Yes, liberals, women, feminists, ignore them at your own peril. boston bean Apr 2014 #30

MRA types are bitter, vindictive souls Tsiyu Apr 2014 #31

That's a bit of an oversimplification knightmaar Apr 2014 #37

there are a lotta lotta lotta girls beaten, raped, abused by their fathers, uncles, brothers, ect... seabeyond Apr 2014 #39

I don't know knightmaar Apr 2014 #63

THIS is the problem joeglow3 Apr 2014 #64

no. that is how you are interpreting it for your own reasons. that is not the point. it is not seabeyond Apr 2014 #72

How did I make it into that? joeglow3 Apr 2014 #76

by saying it is a competition when no on else is. fug.... outta here. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #77

Go back and re-read joeglow3 Apr 2014 #82

this is my comment to you. no one is talking about competition but you. only you see the only seabeyond Apr 2014 #84

Of course the court is biased ohheckyeah Apr 2014 #118

You forgot the sarcasm tag joeglow3 Apr 2014 #208

No, I didn't ohheckyeah Apr 2014 #223

I guess I am just shocked joeglow3 Apr 2014 #224

Some of the attitude is rooted ohheckyeah Apr 2014 #225

That makes sense joeglow3 Apr 2014 #227

I know when my brother got divorced ohheckyeah Apr 2014 #241

It isn't, but it might be tied to one's ability to feed one for the first six months Warpy Apr 2014 #260

Or that women should stay married to them, that divorce is to easy. boston bean Apr 2014 #266

I don't deny the impetus to strike back when one has been harmed Tsiyu Apr 2014 #41

I think it stems more from the ability to speak out knightmaar Apr 2014 #140

Shame is part of abuse Tsiyu Apr 2014 #203

I don't think it is logical to assume that is a significant percentage of their membership. Squinch Apr 2014 #269

and hands down, by far, the percentage of assaults on boys are at the hands of men. not women. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #273

Yes. And there is no movement against men by men who were traumatized by other men. Squinch Apr 2014 #275

"Those guys are about regaining their ownership of women and children." yup. and that ship sailed. seabeyond Apr 2014 #277

Poor dears. There's nowhere for them to turn! When I learned that they were mostly 17-20 years old, Squinch Apr 2014 #280

ya. but reddit users and they are younger. i know the percentage is up there for older men. seabeyond Apr 2014 #281

I think that's very, very true knightmaar Apr 2014 #293

It's hard being a human. dawg Apr 2014 #32

"You never hear anything about gay MRA guys" - see 1st Para. Post 33. closeupready Apr 2014 #95

I'm not sure I'm following your point. dawg Apr 2014 #119

I probably just THINK I have one, but really don't. closeupready Apr 2014 #127

you made me fuggin; laugh. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #133

Well there you go - I'm good for at least SOMETHING. closeupready Apr 2014 #134

point. seabeyond Apr 2014 #137

I don't think they believe that women cause all their problems. merrily Apr 2014 #33

I used to be a feminist. Helen Borg Apr 2014 #35

i have yet to hear one feminist advocate domination and i do not know one feminist that hates men. seabeyond Apr 2014 #36

Probably because you didn't go to the meetings. dawg Apr 2014 #43

bah hahahaha. but had meet ups to play. lol. seabeyond Apr 2014 #48

Here are more than a thousand quotes on feminism OnlinePoker Apr 2014 #47

that is a keeper. thank you. i use to have that until my puter crashed and i lost everything. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #51

Ha ha. Sure you did. Nine Apr 2014 #38

Thread attracted flies. Orsino Apr 2014 #50

Justification for hating men? knightmaar Apr 2014 #40

cool story, sis. Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2014 #46

+10000 Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #55

you go to feminist meetings? you see the hate? you hear feminists want to dominate? seabeyond Apr 2014 #57

Meetings? With A Lot Of Man Hate? HangOnKids Apr 2014 #60

No you didn't. nt. NCTraveler Apr 2014 #89

Meetings? gollygee Apr 2014 #200

Wow. That's a pretty ridiculous bunch of nonsense there. All us feminists just had a meeting Squinch Apr 2014 #270

laughing my fuggin' fuggin' ass of. i take my wine straight thank you very much. seabeyond Apr 2014 #276

Lately I am into Manhattans. Squinch Apr 2014 #278

well. you did not go to the same meeting i did. cause a couple of the women swtich drinks more seabeyond Apr 2014 #279

It sounds like you all had a blast at THAT meeting! The graphics you sent back Squinch Apr 2014 #282

so much fun. we are looking at the midwest yawl..... but they are talking end of may, june and i seabeyond Apr 2014 #283

Let me know when you take on the east coast! Squinch Apr 2014 #284

too far. but.... i LOVE boston and want to hit maine. lol. been on du over ten yrs, seabeyond Apr 2014 #285

True. Squinch Apr 2014 #286

Sadly, the "movement" did have good intentions in the early days Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #52

Or at least cloaked itself with valid concerns. Orsino Apr 2014 #93

good point. we are takling men rights after all. i started hearing and supporting in the 80's. seabeyond Apr 2014 #98

This rhetoric alienates men from the party named in 48 point type at the top of this screen. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #54

The vast majority of black, Latino, and Asian male voters prefer the Democratic Party YoungDemCA Apr 2014 #56

The thing about elections... lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #70

Really? Last I checked, a Democrat won the last two presidential elections... YoungDemCA Apr 2014 #120

Because the GOP panders to their very worst instincts, and shamelessly. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #257

It's up to each man to decide what being a man means. seabeyond Apr 2014 #58

Exactly. One person's right to self-determination ends where another's begins. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #258

Sound and Fury Signifying Nothing HangOnKids Apr 2014 #62

Predictable. Spider Jerusalem Apr 2014 #67

Isn't knowing the response you'll get the definition of trolling? n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #74

no or knowing people would make them trolls CreekDog Apr 2014 #142

i will tell you something else that just hit me. for a man to tell us women that speaking out, seabeyond Apr 2014 #73

I want the party to attract men. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #81

Would you take "my issues" seriously if I define them as "what Iverglas thinks"? seabeyond Apr 2014 #85

You misunderstood me. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #90

I fail to see how pointing out the promlems with the MR movement on DU cyberswede Apr 2014 #96

...And yet no one has attempted to answer the challenge I posed. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #103

I'm sorry - what is the challenge you posed? cyberswede Apr 2014 #109

Here. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #113

ok cyberswede Apr 2014 #117

I saw that thread. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #136

I didn't mention any thread cyberswede Apr 2014 #141

The language you suggested i.e. "TERFs suck" lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #144

I didn't wade very deep into the muck of that thread... cyberswede Apr 2014 #150

TERF are disgusting human beings ismnotwasm Apr 2014 #232

Are you an MRA? ismnotwasm Apr 2014 #230

The thing you don't seem to get YoungDemCA Apr 2014 #129

Gee... The old 'people are voting repug because of rape culture talk' non-sense... Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #83

And let me ask further... What other right wing assholes are off limtis so they don't vote repug? Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #88

You expect to obtain equal rights by *losing* elections? lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #91

So... ignore issues for AA's, LGBT and women so we can win elections? Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #92

My comment wasn't about issues, it was about rhetoric. Specifically, the subject line. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #94

You miss the fact that these assholes are already voting repug... They are not being driven away... Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #99

"logical failure in 100 characters or less" exhibit #1. n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #104

Well if YOU say it, it must be true... No need for facts or an explanation... Sheesh... Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #106

"they're not being driven away, they are voting for republicans" = unassailable logic. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #107

You are the one claiming that talk of equal right drives them away... You have evidence of this? Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #122

It makes absolutely no sense. Don't discuss your beliefs then you can get boston bean Apr 2014 #111

Yeah... It's pretty stupid. And when the MRA talking point is exposed as untrue, he walks... Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #187

Incredibly stupid. Thank you Joe for exposing this nonsense. bettyellen Apr 2014 #193

In this thread, you've also got someone boston bean Apr 2014 #202

Those MRAs mentioned in that thread have no intention of ever voting for Democrats. nt cyberswede Apr 2014 #100

i will go even a step further. i think it is incredibly laudable that jeff wants to increase white seabeyond Apr 2014 #102

and they know this by age 22? lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #105

Some probably do, some may not cyberswede Apr 2014 #112

"do you really think they are likely candidates to read DU?" i think there are a couple, seabeyond Apr 2014 #114

I'm saying that the rhetoric infects all levels of politics. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #116

Celebrating the success of women isn't implcitly celebrating the failure of men. cyberswede Apr 2014 #124

The implicit would be an improvement. I'm objecting to the explicit. n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #130

Oh for Pete's sake. Obama isn't celebrating fewer men graduating from college. cyberswede Apr 2014 #139

If 25% less is "an accomplishment", then what's the eventual goal? n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #149

Obviously, the eventual goal is for everyone who wants to go to college... cyberswede Apr 2014 #152

Interesting interpretation. Very revealing. nt redqueen Apr 2014 #125

no cheering for the gals. makes the guys feel bad. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #126

Exactly! thucythucy Apr 2014 #207

Regarding college graduation rates, what's your definition of equality? lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #210

the equality came into women having the right to a college education. what comes out of it seabeyond Apr 2014 #217

Aah! "Equality of Opportunity, not Equality of Outcomes". lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #219

Bullshit argument. seabeyond Apr 2014 #221

You know Jeff, this is very frustrating. You and I had a colliquoy on just this subject thucythucy Apr 2014 #161

It's frustrating that I don't find "what used to be" a compelling justification for "what is"? lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #167

Your chart looks like cyberswede Apr 2014 #175

This was precisely the point I made when Jeff and I last touched base. thucythucy Apr 2014 #204

This is, as I recall, precisely the same graph you used before. thucythucy Apr 2014 #205

thanks thucy. i always figured it was just more women going to college and the mens number simply seabeyond Apr 2014 #182

Exactly. thucythucy Apr 2014 #212

Good example. Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #192

then quit framing womens rights as a competition with men. you solved your problem. seabeyond Apr 2014 #194

I think Obama created the competition. Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #197

no. he merely praised women. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #199

food past use date. how is that? arely staircase Apr 2014 #157

With a star, you shouldn't be seeing those ads on the top of your screen. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #169

well there is the weird trick..... nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #171

Honest question--has any woman at any time ever made a false charge of rape Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #61

Those aren't "false charges of rape." Nine Apr 2014 #65

But one can assume that the key witness Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #68

Eyewitness IDs are always risky, with any type of crime. Nine Apr 2014 #79

What does this have to do with the OP? HangOnKids Apr 2014 #148

What does this have to do with the OP? Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #170

your post was pointing out false claim reports when in fact that is not what it was pointing out seabeyond Apr 2014 #183

See the following link, please. Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #189

i am well aware of the facts. both u.k and u.s. 2-3 false. up to 8% unfounded. seabeyond Apr 2014 #191

Fair enough. That's the first answer anyone has given Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #195

yes. everyone knows, as you do. cool. you remain pointless. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #196

"MRA" and "garbage" is an oxymoron. chrisa Apr 2014 #78

Oxymoron? Helen Borg Apr 2014 #86

You mean "tautology" (n/t) Spider Jerusalem Apr 2014 #87

Yep! chrisa Apr 2014 #177

MRAs should be shitcanned from DU just like racists; if I have to see another door-holding post alcibiades_mystery Apr 2014 #97

Careful...or you might drive them to vote for Republicans. cyberswede Apr 2014 #101

I wonder if anyone will alert on this. redqueen Apr 2014 #121

Did you know that the term "MRA talking points" shows up on google 234,000 times? lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #211

Yes, but she's not posting positive reviews of those talking points. cyberswede Apr 2014 #213

I have looked for them. The list is apparently only known to the authors of those 234k posts. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #216

...and also known to whoever posted all these cyberswede Apr 2014 #288

+1000 YoungDemCA Apr 2014 #123

I agree, but I have to say that the replies to the door-holding posts have become occasions for a Squinch Apr 2014 #272

Why are they garbage? I'll tell you why. Arkana Apr 2014 #108

and then, there is that too. seabeyond Apr 2014 #110

I bet there are more members of the Communist Party of America arely staircase Apr 2014 #115

Information is available if you care to read it. redqueen Apr 2014 #131

I get it arely staircase Apr 2014 #146

If you think they're as ineffective as the Communist Party, then no, you really don't. nt redqueen Apr 2014 #156

I bet 90 percent of women hqve never heqad of them. nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #158

And that matters why? nt redqueen Apr 2014 #160

it would suggest they are a small and inefectual bunch. arely staircase Apr 2014 #164

Have you ever seen these talking points? boston bean Apr 2014 #176

sure . I have heard all that arely staircase Apr 2014 #185

Did you bother reading either of those links? redqueen Apr 2014 #190

you give them way too much credit arely staircase Apr 2014 #198

Some men point out they're assholes too. cyberswede Apr 2014 #135

I wasn't limiting feminists to women. nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #153

oh cyberswede Apr 2014 #155

I'd never heard of the acronym "MRA" LittleBlue Apr 2014 #138

They are talking about GOP men AgingAmerican Apr 2014 #145

They could hope for no better mechanism to spread their message lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #151

Oh come on... cyberswede Apr 2014 #154

well, the google for starters. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #162

But the majority of those point out the ridiculousness of MRA talking points cyberswede Apr 2014 #166

Well done, cyberswede! Nt. thucythucy Apr 2014 #215

you'll get crickets and then he will go on and hope the next sucker thinks he sounds reasonable..... bettyellen Apr 2014 #238

As usual, you try to use deceptive stats... Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #218

Add the quotes and DU is #4 on the list. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #220

Did you look at #1 on your google search? I'm guessing... No Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #222

Yes - and the post talks about how MRA talking points come from an ugly place cyberswede Apr 2014 #287

I don't really think 'they' exist AgingAmerican Apr 2014 #159

I disagree cyberswede Apr 2014 #163

They could hope for their own Group on DU... Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #165

I must say, that's my experience too. Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #172

Indeed! You sound very informed! HangOnKids Apr 2014 #250

Fuggin' funny. seabeyond Apr 2014 #252

I didn't either, until a DU'er called me one. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #214

Here's a list cyberswede Apr 2014 #290

MRA want it on the law books, it is legal to rape. in some cases. raping a wife is legal. 40-50% seabeyond Apr 2014 #292

There is a matriarchy, but it exists at a family level not a societal one McCamy Taylor Apr 2014 #143

These threads are scheduled for Tuesdays whistler162 Apr 2014 #147

And everyday is an attack on the oppressed. CFLDem Apr 2014 #181

As I've talked about in other threads, it's the hypocrisy of both sides that fuel this shit davidn3600 Apr 2014 #186

ha. it is the feminists fault for mens hate group. rollin' eye. you get the ironic in this, right? seabeyond Apr 2014 #188

Excellent points. Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #226

Isn't it just awful BainsBane Apr 2014 #233

It's obvious you didn't even read the post I was responding to. Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #234

I most certainly did read it BainsBane Apr 2014 #235

And yet, all you could do was post an ad hominem attack. Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #236

And it's the fault of women BainsBane Apr 2014 #239

wonderful summary of why his POV is ridiculous. *applause* bettyellen Apr 2014 #242

That school argument is a stunning example of privilege BainsBane Apr 2014 #245

that women are outperforming men must be a real hard pill for some to bettyellen Apr 2014 #248

Why don't feminists fight for men's rights? BainsBane Apr 2014 #237

I never said prisons were too crowded for rapists...but I have said they are too crowded davidn3600 Apr 2014 #249

"What are you going to support next" BainsBane Apr 2014 #259

Boy you are good at taking things out of context and twisting it around to suit your agenda davidn3600 Apr 2014 #263

You chose to respond to an article about the release of a man who had raped 40 women BainsBane Apr 2014 #264

I'm done playing this game of circles with you davidn3600 Apr 2014 #265

"if nothing ever changes" LOL, read some history, fellow. And cancer screening - be it prostrate or bettyellen Apr 2014 #240

It's a perk when you consider women's lives superfulous, disposable BainsBane Apr 2014 #262

Preventing domestic violence is a perk for women? Starry Messenger Apr 2014 #243

david, i don't know any feminist who thinks that men should pay more for health insurance CreekDog Apr 2014 #244

if i had to choose to trust a random feminist or a random MRA to advocate for me CreekDog Apr 2014 #246

And that's perfectly acceptable to feel that way davidn3600 Apr 2014 #251

Nobody is shifting blame from the rapist. Maybe you ought not work so hard feeding a falsehood seabeyond Apr 2014 #253

More like shifting blame from the victim to the perpetrator. Because too many people nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #261

The hypocrisy is in presenting feminism and MRAs as moral equivalents. Gormy Cuss Apr 2014 #291

I don't like to trash men or women Polito Vega Apr 2014 #267