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lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)

54. This rhetoric alienates men from the party named in 48 point type at the top of this screen.

Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:34 PM

Apr 2014

Period.

"Why the women's ___________ is garbage".

I challenge you to fill in the blanks with any two words that wouldn't alienate women.

It's up to each man to decide what being a man means. I'm all about rejecting strictly enforced gender roles, but rarely does anyone ask him or her for his decision on that matter. In other words, it's not about personal autonomy, but replacement of one paradigm with another.

"Alienates men? So what? More women vote."

There's a schizophrenic quality to conversations about the gender gap; e.g. it's a good thing because the oppressed minority should use their voting bloc dominance to crush the oppressors. It unfortunately ignores a reality that as women marry and start families, their voting patterns change but their husbands do not. 53% of married women voted for Romney.

To resolve any of the issues that the OP is purportedly intended to address, we need more men to vote for Democrats.

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Why the Men's Rights Movement Is Garbage [View all] boston bean Apr 2014 OP

Besides, they already have all the rights LiberalEsto Apr 2014 #1

Exactly! n/t PasadenaTrudy Apr 2014 #5

This message was self-deleted by its author Agschmid Apr 2014 #2

Right--none of those things are caused by feminism. nt raccoon Apr 2014 #3

But as you know, the MRA movement does blame feminism. boston bean Apr 2014 #4

+2 nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #254

MRA? Isn't that a bacterium? pinboy3niner Apr 2014 #6

MRS_A ? you sexist ! steve2470 Apr 2014 #178

Hey, at least I was sort of half right pinboy3niner Apr 2014 #180

DUzy! =) AverageJoe90 Apr 2014 #228

thank you ! *takes a bow* nt steve2470 Apr 2014 #229

How about the fact that JaneyVee Apr 2014 #7

Seems as though they would like to return to those days. boston bean Apr 2014 #9

As far as I'm concerned, American democracy is JaneyVee Apr 2014 #17

that is a good way to look at it. and my oldest son and i, in discussion seabeyond Apr 2014 #26

Shouldn't that be 49 years old? n/t A Simple Game Apr 2014 #42

I say it's even younger than that MrScorpio Apr 2014 #53

in some states you could legally rape.... legally rape, your wife up to what, 1993? nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #10

Awful. JaneyVee Apr 2014 #19

some much is jsut accepted with how we live, the way things were ect... but now. just looking seabeyond Apr 2014 #20

There are still people arguing that spousal rape shouldn't be a crime XemaSab Apr 2014 #22

yes. didnt i hear a congressman or one of those men say that shuold not be illegal, recently? seabeyond Apr 2014 #23

The MRA movement are also critical of the option of No Fault Divorce. boston bean Apr 2014 #25

too many women are walking. not taking their crap. hence, need for a foreign bride the perceive seabeyond Apr 2014 #28

i think what we have to acknowledge about MRA. it is not a small group of men. seabeyond Apr 2014 #8

You said it, Sea! CFLDem Apr 2014 #11

stay away from some of the comments there. boston bean Apr 2014 #12

reality BB, i have read them enough over the years to understand who they are. i have no desire seabeyond Apr 2014 #14

It's most of the GOP AgingAmerican Apr 2014 #132

I suppose I have my own societal prejudices. randome Apr 2014 #13

i do nto think there is anything more strong in a man than watching him speak out for his right seabeyond Apr 2014 #15

Oh, there are legitimate issues, I agree. randome Apr 2014 #16

totally agree.... seabeyond Apr 2014 #18

Where is the power and authority re: paternal rights ? karadax Apr 2014 #49

Care to extrapolate on those barriers? n/t HangOnKids Apr 2014 #59

Off the top of my head. Last month in NJ karadax Apr 2014 #66

Certain Situations HangOnKids Apr 2014 #69

ya. screw the womans right having the baby, it is ALL about da man. you kinda reinforce the OP. seabeyond Apr 2014 #71

Fuckin A HangOnKids Apr 2014 #128

What right, sir, do you have to be present at another person's medical procedures? msanthrope Apr 2014 #80

When that person is your child, it's a reasonable request. n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #168

I think it is a reasonable request to be notified that his child is being born. newcriminal Apr 2014 #201

An estranged boyfriend (or even husband) should not have an absolute right to be present nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #256

Her feelings should not trump the father's when we are discussing the child. newcriminal Apr 2014 #289

I agree. I said he should be able to visit after the birth even if the mother doesn't want him nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #296

If it was only his child, and legally his child, I could understand msanthrope Apr 2014 #206

Seriously, you must see the epic lameness of this argument. Squinch Apr 2014 #268

This example perfectly illustrates the MRA movement's petulant desire to regain male control over wo seabeyond Apr 2014 #271

It boils down to, "Paternity trumps all! The father's relationship to the child Squinch Apr 2014 #274

Off the top of my head: knightmaar Apr 2014 #294

But that's not feminism's fault. The idea that women are naturally better mothers comes from nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #255

This! knightmaar Apr 2014 #295

Very interesting thread ... oldhippie Apr 2014 #21

Here is how Francis takes care of any haters- snooper2 Apr 2014 #24

?????? oldhippie Apr 2014 #75

That's the problem. AtheistCrusader Apr 2014 #27

I am wondering if The Men's Movement will have waves like The Feminist Movement. Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2014 #34

interesting question.... BlancheSplanchnik Apr 2014 #44

thanks and thanks for the thoughtful reply and I imagine you would be correct in Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2014 #45

I think you're wrong. Nine Apr 2014 #173

When I said 'at worst' I was being extremely generous to the counter-position. AtheistCrusader Apr 2014 #174

ok, sorry if I misunderstood. (nt) Nine Apr 2014 #179

I can't find it, but the issue is probably mine. AtheistCrusader Apr 2014 #184

I can give you a very explicit example of what i think you're talking about. thucythucy Apr 2014 #209

When a few male rape victims started showing up at our local center, the women running it eridani Apr 2014 #247

This. Just This. Times a Million. AverageJoe90 Apr 2014 #231

I want to second what sea said - this isn't some small group of annoying nutbags on the net. redqueen Apr 2014 #29

Yes, liberals, women, feminists, ignore them at your own peril. boston bean Apr 2014 #30

MRA types are bitter, vindictive souls Tsiyu Apr 2014 #31

That's a bit of an oversimplification knightmaar Apr 2014 #37

there are a lotta lotta lotta girls beaten, raped, abused by their fathers, uncles, brothers, ect... seabeyond Apr 2014 #39

I don't know knightmaar Apr 2014 #63

THIS is the problem joeglow3 Apr 2014 #64

no. that is how you are interpreting it for your own reasons. that is not the point. it is not seabeyond Apr 2014 #72

How did I make it into that? joeglow3 Apr 2014 #76

by saying it is a competition when no on else is. fug.... outta here. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #77

Go back and re-read joeglow3 Apr 2014 #82

this is my comment to you. no one is talking about competition but you. only you see the only seabeyond Apr 2014 #84

Of course the court is biased ohheckyeah Apr 2014 #118

You forgot the sarcasm tag joeglow3 Apr 2014 #208

No, I didn't ohheckyeah Apr 2014 #223

I guess I am just shocked joeglow3 Apr 2014 #224

Some of the attitude is rooted ohheckyeah Apr 2014 #225

That makes sense joeglow3 Apr 2014 #227

I know when my brother got divorced ohheckyeah Apr 2014 #241

It isn't, but it might be tied to one's ability to feed one for the first six months Warpy Apr 2014 #260

Or that women should stay married to them, that divorce is to easy. boston bean Apr 2014 #266

I don't deny the impetus to strike back when one has been harmed Tsiyu Apr 2014 #41

I think it stems more from the ability to speak out knightmaar Apr 2014 #140

Shame is part of abuse Tsiyu Apr 2014 #203

I don't think it is logical to assume that is a significant percentage of their membership. Squinch Apr 2014 #269

and hands down, by far, the percentage of assaults on boys are at the hands of men. not women. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #273

Yes. And there is no movement against men by men who were traumatized by other men. Squinch Apr 2014 #275

"Those guys are about regaining their ownership of women and children." yup. and that ship sailed. seabeyond Apr 2014 #277

Poor dears. There's nowhere for them to turn! When I learned that they were mostly 17-20 years old, Squinch Apr 2014 #280

ya. but reddit users and they are younger. i know the percentage is up there for older men. seabeyond Apr 2014 #281

I think that's very, very true knightmaar Apr 2014 #293

It's hard being a human. dawg Apr 2014 #32

"You never hear anything about gay MRA guys" - see 1st Para. Post 33. closeupready Apr 2014 #95

I'm not sure I'm following your point. dawg Apr 2014 #119

I probably just THINK I have one, but really don't. closeupready Apr 2014 #127

you made me fuggin; laugh. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #133

Well there you go - I'm good for at least SOMETHING. closeupready Apr 2014 #134

point. seabeyond Apr 2014 #137

I don't think they believe that women cause all their problems. merrily Apr 2014 #33

I used to be a feminist. Helen Borg Apr 2014 #35

i have yet to hear one feminist advocate domination and i do not know one feminist that hates men. seabeyond Apr 2014 #36

Probably because you didn't go to the meetings. dawg Apr 2014 #43

bah hahahaha. but had meet ups to play. lol. seabeyond Apr 2014 #48

Here are more than a thousand quotes on feminism OnlinePoker Apr 2014 #47

that is a keeper. thank you. i use to have that until my puter crashed and i lost everything. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #51

Ha ha. Sure you did. Nine Apr 2014 #38

Thread attracted flies. Orsino Apr 2014 #50

Justification for hating men? knightmaar Apr 2014 #40

cool story, sis. Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2014 #46

+10000 Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #55

you go to feminist meetings? you see the hate? you hear feminists want to dominate? seabeyond Apr 2014 #57

Meetings? With A Lot Of Man Hate? HangOnKids Apr 2014 #60

No you didn't. nt. NCTraveler Apr 2014 #89

Meetings? gollygee Apr 2014 #200

Wow. That's a pretty ridiculous bunch of nonsense there. All us feminists just had a meeting Squinch Apr 2014 #270

laughing my fuggin' fuggin' ass of. i take my wine straight thank you very much. seabeyond Apr 2014 #276

Lately I am into Manhattans. Squinch Apr 2014 #278

well. you did not go to the same meeting i did. cause a couple of the women swtich drinks more seabeyond Apr 2014 #279

It sounds like you all had a blast at THAT meeting! The graphics you sent back Squinch Apr 2014 #282

so much fun. we are looking at the midwest yawl..... but they are talking end of may, june and i seabeyond Apr 2014 #283

Let me know when you take on the east coast! Squinch Apr 2014 #284

too far. but.... i LOVE boston and want to hit maine. lol. been on du over ten yrs, seabeyond Apr 2014 #285

True. Squinch Apr 2014 #286

Sadly, the "movement" did have good intentions in the early days Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #52

Or at least cloaked itself with valid concerns. Orsino Apr 2014 #93

good point. we are takling men rights after all. i started hearing and supporting in the 80's. seabeyond Apr 2014 #98

This rhetoric alienates men from the party named in 48 point type at the top of this screen. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #54

The vast majority of black, Latino, and Asian male voters prefer the Democratic Party YoungDemCA Apr 2014 #56

The thing about elections... lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #70

Really? Last I checked, a Democrat won the last two presidential elections... YoungDemCA Apr 2014 #120

Because the GOP panders to their very worst instincts, and shamelessly. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #257

It's up to each man to decide what being a man means. seabeyond Apr 2014 #58

Exactly. One person's right to self-determination ends where another's begins. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #258

Sound and Fury Signifying Nothing HangOnKids Apr 2014 #62

Predictable. Spider Jerusalem Apr 2014 #67

Isn't knowing the response you'll get the definition of trolling? n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #74

no or knowing people would make them trolls CreekDog Apr 2014 #142

i will tell you something else that just hit me. for a man to tell us women that speaking out, seabeyond Apr 2014 #73

I want the party to attract men. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #81

Would you take "my issues" seriously if I define them as "what Iverglas thinks"? seabeyond Apr 2014 #85

You misunderstood me. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #90

I fail to see how pointing out the promlems with the MR movement on DU cyberswede Apr 2014 #96

...And yet no one has attempted to answer the challenge I posed. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #103

I'm sorry - what is the challenge you posed? cyberswede Apr 2014 #109

Here. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #113

ok cyberswede Apr 2014 #117

I saw that thread. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #136

I didn't mention any thread cyberswede Apr 2014 #141

The language you suggested i.e. "TERFs suck" lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #144

I didn't wade very deep into the muck of that thread... cyberswede Apr 2014 #150

TERF are disgusting human beings ismnotwasm Apr 2014 #232

Are you an MRA? ismnotwasm Apr 2014 #230

The thing you don't seem to get YoungDemCA Apr 2014 #129

Gee... The old 'people are voting repug because of rape culture talk' non-sense... Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #83

And let me ask further... What other right wing assholes are off limtis so they don't vote repug? Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #88

You expect to obtain equal rights by *losing* elections? lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #91

So... ignore issues for AA's, LGBT and women so we can win elections? Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #92

My comment wasn't about issues, it was about rhetoric. Specifically, the subject line. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #94

You miss the fact that these assholes are already voting repug... They are not being driven away... Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #99

"logical failure in 100 characters or less" exhibit #1. n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #104

Well if YOU say it, it must be true... No need for facts or an explanation... Sheesh... Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #106

"they're not being driven away, they are voting for republicans" = unassailable logic. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #107

You are the one claiming that talk of equal right drives them away... You have evidence of this? Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #122

It makes absolutely no sense. Don't discuss your beliefs then you can get boston bean Apr 2014 #111

Yeah... It's pretty stupid. And when the MRA talking point is exposed as untrue, he walks... Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #187

Incredibly stupid. Thank you Joe for exposing this nonsense. bettyellen Apr 2014 #193

In this thread, you've also got someone boston bean Apr 2014 #202

Those MRAs mentioned in that thread have no intention of ever voting for Democrats. nt cyberswede Apr 2014 #100

i will go even a step further. i think it is incredibly laudable that jeff wants to increase white seabeyond Apr 2014 #102

and they know this by age 22? lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #105

Some probably do, some may not cyberswede Apr 2014 #112

"do you really think they are likely candidates to read DU?" i think there are a couple, seabeyond Apr 2014 #114

I'm saying that the rhetoric infects all levels of politics. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #116

Celebrating the success of women isn't implcitly celebrating the failure of men. cyberswede Apr 2014 #124

The implicit would be an improvement. I'm objecting to the explicit. n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #130

Oh for Pete's sake. Obama isn't celebrating fewer men graduating from college. cyberswede Apr 2014 #139

If 25% less is "an accomplishment", then what's the eventual goal? n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #149

Obviously, the eventual goal is for everyone who wants to go to college... cyberswede Apr 2014 #152

Interesting interpretation. Very revealing. nt redqueen Apr 2014 #125

no cheering for the gals. makes the guys feel bad. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #126

Exactly! thucythucy Apr 2014 #207

Regarding college graduation rates, what's your definition of equality? lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #210

the equality came into women having the right to a college education. what comes out of it seabeyond Apr 2014 #217

Aah! "Equality of Opportunity, not Equality of Outcomes". lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #219

Bullshit argument. seabeyond Apr 2014 #221

You know Jeff, this is very frustrating. You and I had a colliquoy on just this subject thucythucy Apr 2014 #161

It's frustrating that I don't find "what used to be" a compelling justification for "what is"? lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #167

Your chart looks like cyberswede Apr 2014 #175

This was precisely the point I made when Jeff and I last touched base. thucythucy Apr 2014 #204

This is, as I recall, precisely the same graph you used before. thucythucy Apr 2014 #205

thanks thucy. i always figured it was just more women going to college and the mens number simply seabeyond Apr 2014 #182

Exactly. thucythucy Apr 2014 #212

Good example. Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #192

then quit framing womens rights as a competition with men. you solved your problem. seabeyond Apr 2014 #194

I think Obama created the competition. Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #197

no. he merely praised women. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #199

food past use date. how is that? arely staircase Apr 2014 #157

With a star, you shouldn't be seeing those ads on the top of your screen. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #169

well there is the weird trick..... nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #171

Honest question--has any woman at any time ever made a false charge of rape Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #61

Those aren't "false charges of rape." Nine Apr 2014 #65

But one can assume that the key witness Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #68

Eyewitness IDs are always risky, with any type of crime. Nine Apr 2014 #79

What does this have to do with the OP? HangOnKids Apr 2014 #148

What does this have to do with the OP? Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #170

your post was pointing out false claim reports when in fact that is not what it was pointing out seabeyond Apr 2014 #183

See the following link, please. Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #189

i am well aware of the facts. both u.k and u.s. 2-3 false. up to 8% unfounded. seabeyond Apr 2014 #191

Fair enough. That's the first answer anyone has given Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #195

yes. everyone knows, as you do. cool. you remain pointless. nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #196

"MRA" and "garbage" is an oxymoron. chrisa Apr 2014 #78

Oxymoron? Helen Borg Apr 2014 #86

You mean "tautology" (n/t) Spider Jerusalem Apr 2014 #87

Yep! chrisa Apr 2014 #177

MRAs should be shitcanned from DU just like racists; if I have to see another door-holding post alcibiades_mystery Apr 2014 #97

Careful...or you might drive them to vote for Republicans. cyberswede Apr 2014 #101

I wonder if anyone will alert on this. redqueen Apr 2014 #121

Did you know that the term "MRA talking points" shows up on google 234,000 times? lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #211

Yes, but she's not posting positive reviews of those talking points. cyberswede Apr 2014 #213

I have looked for them. The list is apparently only known to the authors of those 234k posts. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #216

...and also known to whoever posted all these cyberswede Apr 2014 #288

+1000 YoungDemCA Apr 2014 #123

I agree, but I have to say that the replies to the door-holding posts have become occasions for a Squinch Apr 2014 #272

Why are they garbage? I'll tell you why. Arkana Apr 2014 #108

and then, there is that too. seabeyond Apr 2014 #110

I bet there are more members of the Communist Party of America arely staircase Apr 2014 #115

Information is available if you care to read it. redqueen Apr 2014 #131

I get it arely staircase Apr 2014 #146

If you think they're as ineffective as the Communist Party, then no, you really don't. nt redqueen Apr 2014 #156

I bet 90 percent of women hqve never heqad of them. nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #158

And that matters why? nt redqueen Apr 2014 #160

it would suggest they are a small and inefectual bunch. arely staircase Apr 2014 #164

Have you ever seen these talking points? boston bean Apr 2014 #176

sure . I have heard all that arely staircase Apr 2014 #185

Did you bother reading either of those links? redqueen Apr 2014 #190

you give them way too much credit arely staircase Apr 2014 #198

Some men point out they're assholes too. cyberswede Apr 2014 #135

I wasn't limiting feminists to women. nt arely staircase Apr 2014 #153

oh cyberswede Apr 2014 #155

I'd never heard of the acronym "MRA" LittleBlue Apr 2014 #138

They are talking about GOP men AgingAmerican Apr 2014 #145

They could hope for no better mechanism to spread their message lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #151

Oh come on... cyberswede Apr 2014 #154

well, the google for starters. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #162

But the majority of those point out the ridiculousness of MRA talking points cyberswede Apr 2014 #166

Well done, cyberswede! Nt. thucythucy Apr 2014 #215

you'll get crickets and then he will go on and hope the next sucker thinks he sounds reasonable..... bettyellen Apr 2014 #238

As usual, you try to use deceptive stats... Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #218

Add the quotes and DU is #4 on the list. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #220

Did you look at #1 on your google search? I'm guessing... No Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #222

Yes - and the post talks about how MRA talking points come from an ugly place cyberswede Apr 2014 #287

I don't really think 'they' exist AgingAmerican Apr 2014 #159

I disagree cyberswede Apr 2014 #163

They could hope for their own Group on DU... Ohio Joe Apr 2014 #165

I must say, that's my experience too. Damansarajaya Apr 2014 #172

Indeed! You sound very informed! HangOnKids Apr 2014 #250

Fuggin' funny. seabeyond Apr 2014 #252

I didn't either, until a DU'er called me one. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2014 #214

Here's a list cyberswede Apr 2014 #290

MRA want it on the law books, it is legal to rape. in some cases. raping a wife is legal. 40-50% seabeyond Apr 2014 #292

There is a matriarchy, but it exists at a family level not a societal one McCamy Taylor Apr 2014 #143

These threads are scheduled for Tuesdays whistler162 Apr 2014 #147

And everyday is an attack on the oppressed. CFLDem Apr 2014 #181

As I've talked about in other threads, it's the hypocrisy of both sides that fuel this shit davidn3600 Apr 2014 #186

ha. it is the feminists fault for mens hate group. rollin' eye. you get the ironic in this, right? seabeyond Apr 2014 #188

Excellent points. Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #226

Isn't it just awful BainsBane Apr 2014 #233

It's obvious you didn't even read the post I was responding to. Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #234

I most certainly did read it BainsBane Apr 2014 #235

And yet, all you could do was post an ad hominem attack. Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #236

And it's the fault of women BainsBane Apr 2014 #239

wonderful summary of why his POV is ridiculous. *applause* bettyellen Apr 2014 #242

That school argument is a stunning example of privilege BainsBane Apr 2014 #245

that women are outperforming men must be a real hard pill for some to bettyellen Apr 2014 #248

Why don't feminists fight for men's rights? BainsBane Apr 2014 #237

I never said prisons were too crowded for rapists...but I have said they are too crowded davidn3600 Apr 2014 #249

"What are you going to support next" BainsBane Apr 2014 #259

Boy you are good at taking things out of context and twisting it around to suit your agenda davidn3600 Apr 2014 #263

You chose to respond to an article about the release of a man who had raped 40 women BainsBane Apr 2014 #264

I'm done playing this game of circles with you davidn3600 Apr 2014 #265

"if nothing ever changes" LOL, read some history, fellow. And cancer screening - be it prostrate or bettyellen Apr 2014 #240

It's a perk when you consider women's lives superfulous, disposable BainsBane Apr 2014 #262

Preventing domestic violence is a perk for women? Starry Messenger Apr 2014 #243

david, i don't know any feminist who thinks that men should pay more for health insurance CreekDog Apr 2014 #244

if i had to choose to trust a random feminist or a random MRA to advocate for me CreekDog Apr 2014 #246

And that's perfectly acceptable to feel that way davidn3600 Apr 2014 #251

Nobody is shifting blame from the rapist. Maybe you ought not work so hard feeding a falsehood seabeyond Apr 2014 #253

More like shifting blame from the victim to the perpetrator. Because too many people nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #261

The hypocrisy is in presenting feminism and MRAs as moral equivalents. Gormy Cuss Apr 2014 #291

I don't like to trash men or women Polito Vega Apr 2014 #267