General Discussion

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)

77. If you look at the footnotes of that wikipedia link, you will see that in actuality

Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:33 PM

Apr 2014

what you have there is repeated citiations that "scholars are not putting forth assertions that he did NOT exist" which is not the same thing as agreeing he DID.

Proving a negative is a giant pain in the ass.

The fact is, the "historical existence of Jesus" is really of only a concern to Biblical historians, a group which has a vested interest in the Bible as a historical source, for obvious reasons.

There is no credible* evidence for a historical Jesus outside of the Bible, so non-biblical historians don't generally weigh in on the topic, in addition to not wanting to poke their head out of that particular foxhole and draw fire for a debate which has essentially no point outside of "Biblical History" circles.

Obviously, additional non-biblical evidence would or could change that situation, but that's how it stands. If "historians (non-Biblical) agree he existed", they're not doing so on the basis of any actual evidence.

*The Josephus account is widely believed to be a forgery created several centuries after the start of Christianity, for a number of reasons including the glaring narrative problems contained therein.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

216 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

do you believe there was a historical figure the Jesus story was built on? [View all] backwoodsbob Apr 2014 OP

His name was David Koresh Capt. Obvious Apr 2014 #1

wtf? backwoodsbob Apr 2014 #2

wtf indeed. I agree. As for me, I personally believe that the rabbi roguevalley Apr 2014 #98

thank you, you capture my thoughts on the man as well RedstDem Apr 2014 #205

Why wouold anybody believe that? BlueStreak Apr 2014 #206

What do their delusions of grandeur have to do with anything? nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #56

Not funny. 840high Apr 2014 #157

Not trying to persuade you warrior1 Apr 2014 #3

Thank you for injecting some scholarship into this discussion customerserviceguy Apr 2014 #154

From Hebrew documents they theorize a date for Jesus' birth - Sept 23, 3 BC KurtNYC Apr 2014 #201

I don't think it matters. rrneck Apr 2014 #4

you're probably right and it's just day off idealism on my part backwoodsbob Apr 2014 #11

the bible teaches slavery is part of culture RainDog Apr 2014 #133

I'm Pretty Sure Of it colsohlibgal Apr 2014 #5

Did Jesus exist? Jim__ Apr 2014 #6

it just comforts me to think backwoodsbob Apr 2014 #16

Try Confucius. Lot of evidence that he existed. PassingFair Apr 2014 #74

Bart says that he's agnostic. El Supremo Apr 2014 #76

Yes, I've read a few of Ehrman's books, and I've never LuvNewcastle Apr 2014 #112

And yet that is all there is for an historical jesus: arguments. ZERO contemporary EVIDENCE exists. cleanhippie Apr 2014 #117

Maybe this will help tazkcmo Apr 2014 #7

An entertaining read, like all of Chris Moore's books FiveGoodMen Apr 2014 #53

The Jesus of the Gospels was probably a Jewish rabbi at the time. NuclearDem Apr 2014 #8

The christian religion is just a copy of many other older religions! B Calm Apr 2014 #9

I put a more stock in him existing than Moses (nt) The Straight Story Apr 2014 #10

I would guess backwoodsbob Apr 2014 #12

The Pentateuch is a nationalistic creation myth, like the Aeneid. NuclearDem Apr 2014 #15

Moses edhopper Apr 2014 #109

But a good tale we tell every year. nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #120

Well that depends on the moral of the fable edhopper Apr 2014 #123

Alas that depends on the Jew nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #125

No Moses did not exist. nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #119

Who knows edhopper Apr 2014 #124

Among people who study this as an academic pursuit, not a religious one, they nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #132

I think we are in agreement that edhopper Apr 2014 #134

The son of god is an article of faith nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #137

Probably more info than I needed edhopper Apr 2014 #143

I have been fascinated with the historicity of bible stories for a long time nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #147

Well edhopper Apr 2014 #153

You've inspired me to get out my "Asimov's Guide to the Bible" eShirl Apr 2014 #186

Good, there are newer reads on this nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #187

The new covenant Calista241 Apr 2014 #162

And he was not alone. nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #183

I sorta think there was tularetom Apr 2014 #13

No FarCenter Apr 2014 #14

Hard to say ... 1000words Apr 2014 #17

Except there are mentions. former9thward Apr 2014 #81

I was referring to public records/administrative logs 1000words Apr 2014 #83

Yes but very little of that exists. former9thward Apr 2014 #91

But that's the point; the greatest dude in history doesn't get a mention until a century after death Demo_Chris Apr 2014 #103

It was not a century. former9thward Apr 2014 #114

Most believers could care less about the total lack of evidence to support the idea. cleanhippie Apr 2014 #118

Name a historian of the period who rejects an historical Jesus. former9thward Apr 2014 #146

"No serious scholar of the period disputes his existence." tabasco Apr 2014 #142

Then of course you will point to one. former9thward Apr 2014 #144

i see you have not been exposed to myth scholars tiny elvis Apr 2014 #195

I was asking for serious historians. former9thward Apr 2014 #196

i begin to see what serious means tiny elvis Apr 2014 #197

Historians believe there was a historic Jesus nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #18

there are reports of his brother, James. There are also tales of his family being roguevalley Apr 2014 #99

And he married. nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #121

I agree, Nadin. Did you hear about the Jesus wife parchment? It is ruled authentic. :D roguevalley Apr 2014 #136

I love the ideas nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #138

He also got in trouble all the time for pissing on the carpet snooper2 Apr 2014 #210

I've always held that he didn't "exist" as an individual... Wounded Bear Apr 2014 #19

very likely true backwoodsbob Apr 2014 #24

I do believe there was a historical Jesus, Blue_In_AK Apr 2014 #20

It is quite likely, though he may or may not have not much resembled the gospels cthulu2016 Apr 2014 #21

Jesus almost certainly existed....in some form theboss Apr 2014 #22

I think John the Baptist and Jesus might have been the same person. LuvNewcastle Apr 2014 #113

There was a Roman historian, named Josephus, who lived at the time of Jesus, and had written about Cal33 Apr 2014 #23

He was not a contemporary, he made only two references, and they are disputed... Demo_Chris Apr 2014 #105

No. Within the past ten years, I abandoned my belief in the historical figure. John1956PA Apr 2014 #25

perhaps. read "When God Was A Woman" by Merlin Stone Scout Apr 2014 #26

An idiot savant maybe, no virgin birth. Power hungry men wrote the bible larkrake Apr 2014 #27

Yes. I believe in him. And he was one good egg. And made the world a much better place. applegrove Apr 2014 #28

Well put. I believe in Him too. calimary Apr 2014 #165

I believe he walked the earth. I don't believe applegrove Apr 2014 #169

Yes. But, in those times, he wasn't particularly unique. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2014 #29

that is my take backwoodsbob Apr 2014 #33

And, ironically, was spread by the very people who crucified him. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2014 #36

Reading this right now... Hip_Flask Apr 2014 #30

A good read rickford66 Apr 2014 #58

Karen Armstrong's books are also worth reading ... JoePhilly Apr 2014 #78

Mirtha of the older Pagan religion had a virgin birth too. B Calm Apr 2014 #31

What part of backwoodsbob Apr 2014 #35

Mithras was born okasha Apr 2014 #198

I'm a non believer, but I do believe there was a man named Jesus 2pooped2pop Apr 2014 #32

The life advice of a man that's so delusional mathematic Apr 2014 #34

but what if backwoodsbob Apr 2014 #37

What justification is there to disregard those statements of his? mathematic Apr 2014 #41

Jesus also referred to himself as "The Son of Man". CJCRANE Apr 2014 #49

Not in any interesting way. The Jesus of myth is just, that and no more real than Santa. Demo_Chris Apr 2014 #38

There may have been a person or persons on who the Biblical Jesus was based upon sakabatou Apr 2014 #39

I believe that "Jesus" is a composite... ananda Apr 2014 #40

Probably... cbdo2007 Apr 2014 #42

Meh... Wounded Bear Apr 2014 #54

Nope. countryjake Apr 2014 #43

There was! Roman records mentioned him. AverageJoe90 Apr 2014 #44

Which Roman records edhopper Apr 2014 #111

Believe it or not.... yuiyoshida Apr 2014 #45

almost certainly, although I doubt it was based on just one person LadyHawkAZ Apr 2014 #46

No. Clearly based off old myths. Goblinmonger Apr 2014 #47

No. XRubicon Apr 2014 #48

Evidence of a real Jesus is the last thing most people want. CJCRANE Apr 2014 #50

Nonsense. A HERETIC I AM Apr 2014 #55

Jesus never mentioned Original Sin. Jesus and Christianity are two different things. CJCRANE Apr 2014 #57

First of all, those "other religions" are merely different versions of the same product..... A HERETIC I AM Apr 2014 #60

I think it would be interesting to find out if Jesus was a real person. CJCRANE Apr 2014 #63

Actually you are right and wrong at the same time nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #148

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #51

Could have been a great man who people loved. Maybe, when he was killed by the Romans, the common Lint Head Apr 2014 #52

Nope. Iggo Apr 2014 #59

Yes, but like you, I don't believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection. Shrike47 Apr 2014 #61

If one believes Exposethefrauds Apr 2014 #62

Yes. n/t Crunchy Frog Apr 2014 #64

Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth is pretty interesting read on the historical Jesus arely staircase Apr 2014 #65

Agree 100% deutsey Apr 2014 #66

Yes, I believe there was a historical Jesus deutsey Apr 2014 #67

Excellent Frontline on this very subject Exposethefrauds Apr 2014 #68

Thanks, that looks interesting. Bookmarked for later viewing. nt CJCRANE Apr 2014 #71

No. I believe early Christianity was a "Mystery Cult" typical of the era Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #69

"Most modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed...." Nye Bevan Apr 2014 #70

If you look at the footnotes of that wikipedia link, you will see that in actuality Warren DeMontague Apr 2014 #77

I have read that Wikipedia account. I am glad you posted it, but I disagree with it. John1956PA Apr 2014 #86

probably a blending of more than one eShirl Apr 2014 #72

Gandhi existed. And, leaving out the virgin birth, walking on water, cheating death, etc, Squinch Apr 2014 #73

Gandhi....nt PassingFair Apr 2014 #82

Thank you. Correcting! Squinch Apr 2014 #85

+1 Dawson Leery Apr 2014 #152

So believe it... sarisataka Apr 2014 #75

zeitgeist the movie might explain a few things FranMonet Apr 2014 #79

+1 Common Sense B Calm Apr 2014 #93

no. n/t wildbilln864 Apr 2014 #80

Yes I believe in Jesus and in his resurrection. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #84

I was raised Epicopalian too..... A HERETIC I AM Apr 2014 #89

I love and respect him. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #92

yes I do believe he existed Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #87

You couldn't be more wrong. There is almost no documentation that Jesus existed, Raksha Apr 2014 #213

If he was not God, the question of his existence is much less interesting. rug Apr 2014 #88

Probably not. HooptieWagon Apr 2014 #90

Yes I believe Jesus lived.. Peacetrain Apr 2014 #94

Thank you... RedRoses323 Apr 2014 #106

It really makes a person hopeful Peacetrain Apr 2014 #191

Absolutely RedRoses323 Apr 2014 #199

Like these! The message of Jesus is a Universal Truth. calimary Apr 2014 #174

Universal Truth? The natural laws of the universe are the only UNIVERSAL TRUTHS. cleanhippie Apr 2014 #188

The laws of nature do not address love of another being.. Peacetrain Apr 2014 #189

A being that exists outside the natural laws of the universe? cleanhippie Apr 2014 #192

As you stated this is "OUR" community space Peacetrain Apr 2014 #193

Which is fine and dandy, but have nothing to do with the objections you raised. cleanhippie Apr 2014 #194

Objections to what? Peacetrain Apr 2014 #200

Oh, yeah, it's me thats the confused one here. cleanhippie Apr 2014 #209

Happy Easter Peacetrain Apr 2014 #190

Of course there was. But his message was corrupted beyond recognition by Paul & Peter baldguy Apr 2014 #95

My opinion on the matter. ZX86 Apr 2014 #96

Why not? The Buddha and Mohammed existed. WinkyDink Apr 2014 #97

For your wishes expressed in the OP: muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #100

Yes. Petrushka Apr 2014 #101

Read Bart Ehrman's books. He is an agnostic scholar of all the texts. mmonk Apr 2014 #102

Kenneth Humphreys presents a strong rebuttal to Ehrman. John1956PA Apr 2014 #116

I tend to agree with Ehrman based on other non-Christian scholars I've also read. mmonk Apr 2014 #180

I would question Humphrey's claim that Ehrman engages in mmonk Apr 2014 #182

The Jesus of the Gospels? - nope intaglio Apr 2014 #104

It never ceases to amaze me tavernier Apr 2014 #107

I thought that the OP is timely otherone Apr 2014 #127

Thank you for pointing out tavernier Apr 2014 #140

Have a great holiday tavernier! otherone Apr 2014 #179

Well lucky for you I denigrate all religions. Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #141

I'm neither poor nor persecuted, tavernier Apr 2014 #145

Can I be Magneto? Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #155

Sure, if you think you're up to it tavernier Apr 2014 #161

Um Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #163

I don't believe you have the flexible substrates tavernier Apr 2014 #164

Sorry. Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #167

A noble gesture. N/T tavernier Apr 2014 #168

Hapy Easter. 840high Apr 2014 #159

Have a blessed Easter nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #160

I do believe he lived.. RedRoses323 Apr 2014 #108

Perhaps. 99Forever Apr 2014 #110

Jerimiah Johnson..... Bigmack Apr 2014 #115

Yes fadedrose Apr 2014 #122

Yes otherone Apr 2014 #126

I think there were two main real historical humans and then a handful of myths Exultant Democracy Apr 2014 #128

Well, the fact that he may or may not have existed doesn't seem to matter as much as... Tikki Apr 2014 #129

Hell no. Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #130

I don't care RainDog Apr 2014 #131

I do believe that there was a person who said the things that the New Testament merrily Apr 2014 #135

Too many people here are doing what they blame conservatives for doing... brooklynite Apr 2014 #139

First, what muriel_volestrangler said. Benton D Struckcheon Apr 2014 #149

Possibly multiple historical figures. MohRokTah Apr 2014 #150

I know Ted Cruz thinks he is the Messiah lostincalifornia Apr 2014 #151

I believe Jesus was 840high Apr 2014 #156

I don't know why Christians think Jesus is coming back. Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #158

Probably. Probably was a Hercules, too. DirkGently Apr 2014 #166

It was a slave religion that was used by rulers of a slave economy to keep their slaves in line. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #170

i believe. mia Apr 2014 #171

Echoing those who cite Prof. Ehrman BlueCheese Apr 2014 #172

"-- who would want to say that their messiah was squashed so easily?)" mia Apr 2014 #173

Marvin Meyer thinks he was a "Wisdom Teacher" leftyladyfrommo Apr 2014 #208

I don't. ladyVet Apr 2014 #175

No - Manufactured By Man To Control The Sheeple cantbeserious Apr 2014 #176

There was likely a man or group of men who came up with the idea Warpy Apr 2014 #177

Yes and no LostOne4Ever Apr 2014 #178

nope. n/t Feral Child Apr 2014 #181

That's pretty much how I see it, too, Bob. GoCubsGo Apr 2014 #184

The truth is that HISTORY contains the word 'story' johnlucas Apr 2014 #185

yes, I believe he was real, walked among others RedstDem Apr 2014 #202

My belief. bigendian Apr 2014 #203

Yes I do. nt el_bryanto Apr 2014 #204

a surprising number of "no"s on this thread -- Wow. KurtNYC Apr 2014 #207

Lol. And I'm just as surprised by the number of people Solomon Apr 2014 #215

Nero. Pliny the Younger. The writings of Josephus. The Babylonian Talmud. Lucian. KurtNYC Apr 2014 #216

For background read this into Reb Akiba nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #211

No. I think there were some wandering preachers at the time, but no one historical figure. raccoon Apr 2014 #212

K & R - this looks like a really good discussion, and I wish I'd gotten involved in it sooner, Raksha Apr 2014 #214