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TheKentuckian

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218. What about Estonia?

Reply to AcertainLiz (Reply #217)

Sat Apr 19, 2014, 06:39 PM

Apr 2014

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To those who'd say a bigger U.S. war budget would have stopped Putin...this sobering fact: [View all] Ken Burch Apr 2014 OP

I actually think we do need to focus our military in Europe and need more troops AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #1

We have 1.5 million active duty soldiers, second only to China. Lasher Apr 2014 #2

Thanks for the graphs, but that's not what I mean AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #19

I think we are making the same point: Too many missions. Lasher Apr 2014 #24

Well, I don't see why we shouldn't defend Europe? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #28

Don't you see anything wrong with that arrangement? Lasher Apr 2014 #29

To be fair to the Europeans AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #37

We should help defend our NATO allies. Lasher Apr 2014 #38

Yeah but that also means heavily increasing the US presence there AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #43

No it doesn't. Lasher Apr 2014 #49

The US presence as it is cannot defend Europe properly AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #52

The NATO presence. NATO! NATO! Lasher Apr 2014 #69

Why do you keep tagging me with claiming it has sole responsibility? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #71

Europe will never be "up to snuff" as long as naive Americans like you would foot their bills. Lasher Apr 2014 #76

Europe will never be "up to snuff" due to population and size... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #86

European nations pangaia Apr 2014 #108

But they're not willing AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #138

That is on them. We are not their parents or whatever strange relationship you think is in play here TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #206

Europe couldn't defend us if they wanted to, too small AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #207

Actually you being 19 ismnotwasm Apr 2014 #144

Hmm? Yes I do plan to join, but you confuse my support for conscription. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #146

So you plan to join the military, pangaia Apr 2014 #159

I'll only accept a posting I believe is right, yeah. So no combat roles for me. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #163

So you will enlist in, say, the Army, pangaia Apr 2014 #165

Depends on my role in where I'm sent AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #168

Good luck with that. pangaia Apr 2014 #169

Thanks, but how am I naive? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #170

If you were not naive, you would follow. pangaia Apr 2014 #173

Kind of circular no? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #174

Yes, it is circular. pangaia Apr 2014 #179

So you don't see a problem with circular reasoning? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #180

I didn't say anything about circular reasoning. pangaia Apr 2014 #181

You're using circular reasoning now though. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #182

It's not confusing to those who've read history ismnotwasm Apr 2014 #164

How am I all over the place with my opinion? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #166

Perhaps it's me ismnotwasm Apr 2014 #175

I'm going into the military to go into school actually :P AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #177

" However, I do think some mandatory service would be good for society, " pangaia Apr 2014 #54

Solidarity, and it expands the burden to the whole of society. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #58

No doubt the military would love to do away with a civilian population. L0oniX Apr 2014 #104

Solidarity? pangaia Apr 2014 #110

More like this AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #140

Who cares about society? We should all be in the military so we can all kill together... L0oniX Apr 2014 #105

So when is Europe going to chip in and help us all pay for our massive military? L0oniX Apr 2014 #106

You just made a great point. Separation Apr 2014 #42

I see you are picking up what I am laying down. Lasher Apr 2014 #45

I think you can have both AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #55

But the problem is, we don't have both. Lasher Apr 2014 #68

I think defending Europe should be among our top priorities. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #70

I think bankrolling Europe should be among our lowest priorities. Lasher Apr 2014 #80

At least you admit it AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #90

Another one to add to the government list of people who disagree with the fearless leaders. L0oniX Apr 2014 #114

Yea ...lets cut our social programs so we can pump up our military some more. L0oniX Apr 2014 #113

Why did we open this thread LOonix? Generic Other Apr 2014 #155

We're being invaded by the Bill Kristol cult. L0oniX Apr 2014 #185

That is an insane desire. JackRiddler Apr 2014 #87

Yeah, it's not like NATO kept Europe safe at all... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #97

NATO threatened nuclear war. JackRiddler Apr 2014 #99

Not really, MAD exists between any nation with nukes. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #137

So you agree with Bill Kristol. Well then I guess we know which side your on. L0oniX Apr 2014 #116

No doubt their minions are here at work L0oniX Apr 2014 #115

We don't deserve an effective military.. sendero Apr 2014 #192

We deserve to be open to attack because of some mistakes? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #193

No one... sendero Apr 2014 #195

No one is going to attack us because we have a military that can repel them. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #196

I will concede.. sendero Apr 2014 #197

You're right that the military needs radical restructering AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #199

Maybe we should start up a draft, do you think? raccoon Apr 2014 #3

Well actually I do think we need a draft AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #18

If Russia is such a threat to "Europe" JackRiddler Apr 2014 #88

Why can't the 50 US states defend themselves? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #98

To compare individual American states to the NATO alliance thucythucy Apr 2014 #107

"is little short of absurd. " It would be absurd if I made that argument :P AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #141

So when you ask "Why can't the 50 states defend themselves" thucythucy Apr 2014 #157

You said I compared NATO to the US. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #160

That's what we call epic false equivalency. L0oniX Apr 2014 #112

Actually, that is (sort of) what the Founders of the Constitution envisioned: Maedhros Apr 2014 #131

Yeah but that was in the 1700s AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #139

From one another? Probably. Maedhros Apr 2014 #151

How do you figure? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #152

In the absence of the buildup of a massive Federal army during the Civil War, Maedhros Apr 2014 #153

Yeah but not in 2014... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #154

The country would be much different that it is today. Maedhros Apr 2014 #158

So you would favor this situation? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #162

Well, the Federal system is too entrenched to change at this late date. Maedhros Apr 2014 #171

I just assumed it would mean a more chaotic and less efficient and productive US? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #172

Is Europe in a state of utter chaos? [n/t] Maedhros Apr 2014 #176

Yeah, with the eurocrisis and all? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #178

I wouldn't call it chaos. Maedhros Apr 2014 #188

I was under the impression Europe is in a depression right now. I wouldn't call that stability. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #190

There have been no coups or major wars (outside of the Yugoslavia breakup). Maedhros Apr 2014 #200

Yeah I would say the political situation in Europe and the US is very unstable AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #201

What is the mission and why should we be on it? TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #5

I thought it was the purpose of NATO? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #20

The purpose of NATO is for us to put more troops into Europe? TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #30

The purpose is to defend Europe, which we can't do right now. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #34

The purpose of NATO is for mutual defense of its member states. Lasher Apr 2014 #39

Russia is threatening NATO members AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #40

Ukraine is a non-aligned state. Lasher Apr 2014 #41

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO#Participating_countries AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #44

NATO member states agree to mutual defense in response to an attack by any external party. Lasher Apr 2014 #47

But I'm not talking about just Ukraine. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #51

You just tried to move the goalpost. Lasher Apr 2014 #79

First of all, yes it does AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #89

Not exactly, it is a mutual defense treaty. We don't have primary responsibility so if allies cannot TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #65

We're not going broke helping Europe have an adaquete defense per NATO AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #66

That's eminently debatable. This is a war profiteers' country. n/t cprise Apr 2014 #78

Um...everything is "debatable". Thanks for putting that out. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #95

^^^this^^^ L0oniX Apr 2014 #117

They can if they want to, they choose not to and I don't blame them but I'm not TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #84

Well, then you want us to leave NATO and leave all our security deals with Europe AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #96

No, I'm saying they have obligations to their own security and we are not Daddy Warbucks TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #120

But NATO is mutual defense and we have a part AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #125

What treaty obligation are you saying we are not in compliance with now? TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #202

Starts with an N, ends with an O. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #203

What are in we in violation of? TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #204

I said so already AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #205

No, you hinted. What is your actual answer? TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #208

.... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #209

It starts with a "N" and ends with an "O" is a hint not a direct answer. Are you (foolishly TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #212

Come on, do I really have to point it out for you? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #213

Absolutely TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #215

Estonia? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #217

What about Estonia? TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #218

You're either naive or working. I have friends in the UK, Poland, Germany and Italy. L0oniX Apr 2014 #111

It's not our fucking job. L0oniX Apr 2014 #109

Bwahahahahah ...whatever L0oniX Apr 2014 #9

Witty rebuttal :P AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #21

LMAO Enthusiast Apr 2014 #12

Again, very witty rebuttal :P AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #22

Welcome to DU. think Apr 2014 #13

Thanks :) AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #17

Don't let a spirited debate make you feel unwelcome, Liz. Lasher Apr 2014 #48

No worries :) AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #50

Then you should be happy here at DU. Lasher Apr 2014 #81

I'll certainly try to enjoy it here :) AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #85

Wow, I must say you are quite mature for a 19 yr. old. Kingofalldems Apr 2014 #122

I am? Thanks! AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #123

the problem is the insane idea that our military should be anywhere other then US soil. bowens43 Apr 2014 #135

We can project all the power we need. Octafish Apr 2014 #136

So we need to be East Germany, having US troops all here for what? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #143

Here's what I need to know malaise Apr 2014 #4

Thank you, exactly what I think newfie11 Apr 2014 #6

For a simple reason. Igel Apr 2014 #10

Confirmation bias yup nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #31

So those Russian troops in Crimea were not nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #32

Exactly, I'm tired of everyone seeing the US as the bad guy in every situation. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #35

Yea the truth gets tiring too. Hey you remember Iraq WMD's? L0oniX Apr 2014 #119

Yeah, because it's not like Russia hasn't invaded anyone... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #126

Here we go again ... nt TBF Apr 2014 #129

Yeah, because it's not like the USA hasn't invaded anyone. L0oniX Apr 2014 #183

By playing world police we are subsidizing other countries defense. L0oniX Apr 2014 #7

Well, do tell that to the European countries that keep cutting their defense budgets AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #36

"So either we help them or throw them to the wolves." pffft Dependent on us are they? Fuck that! L0oniX Apr 2014 #53

Bravo.. pangaia Apr 2014 #56

So in other words, some childish condemnation of the military AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #61

Why is it "our job" to "defend Europe" (from whom)? This sounds like a Cold War-era fantasy anneboleyn Apr 2014 #72

+1 L0oniX Apr 2014 #77

What's this fantasy that we're going broke due to "defending Europe"? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #92

Who are you working for? No doubt you are working. We've seen this before. L0oniX Apr 2014 #102

Okay Mr. Paranoid, I think I'm going to ignore you... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #134

Yes, There Are Paid Government Trolls On Social Media, Blogs, Forums And Websites L0oniX Apr 2014 #186

No ...I am with the majority that use intellect rather than stupid brute force. L0oniX Apr 2014 #75

Thanks for the laundry list of quotes in place of an actual argument AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #93

Enjoy the military psych. Must be nice to be so wise that you don't need the wisdom of others. L0oniX Apr 2014 #101

Yawn... AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #133

Oh the irony. L0oniX Apr 2014 #184

I've heard that line before: Either/Or cprise Apr 2014 #82

Try selling that to the Europeans that they have to have a unified army AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #94

No reason why EU can't coordinate defence under NATO. n/t cprise Apr 2014 #121

Not every NATO member in Europe is in the EU for one. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #124

I used EU as shorthand for Europe cprise Apr 2014 #145

Well, then you're leaving out some NATO members :P AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #148

Oh, OK then. n/t cprise Apr 2014 #150

The EU is perfectly capable of defending themselves.. pangaia Apr 2014 #57

How are they capable of defending themselves? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #60

You'll need libraries worth of better arguments cprise Apr 2014 #83

Yet I'm making no such argument. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #91

Your argument has a certain circular quality to it: thucythucy Apr 2014 #118

I've made no such argument. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #127

So what would be your solution to this problem? Kingofalldems Apr 2014 #130

To Russian threats against Europe? AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #142

For a start, yes. Kingofalldems Apr 2014 #147

That's easy, just show we can and will defend Europe and not tolerate their behavior. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #149

You need to brush up on your history. thucythucy Apr 2014 #156

Thanks for the history lesson AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #161

So because we can't "sell" the idea of unified self defense thucythucy Apr 2014 #189

Try selling the idea that Europe must defend itself to a crowd of Europeans, that should be AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #191

Oh I agree, at present European conventional forces desperately need our support. thucythucy Apr 2014 #194

Again, try selling the idea to Europeans, I think it would be an interesting discussion. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #198

You don't describe allies but rather dependents. Allies would come to our aid in need. TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #210

NATO is not killing our economy so just quit it with that AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #211

I didn't say it was, I said that the NATO treaty is not an economic suicide pact TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #214

I don't think protecting Europe is economic suicide AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #216

It is part of defense of Europe, though treestar Apr 2014 #8

But the USSR went extinct in 1991. Ken Burch Apr 2014 #14

We don't need to radically expand the US military budget, obviously the opposite AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #23

Who is suggesting that we 'totally disarm,' or pangaia Apr 2014 #59

Someone just suggested this on this very thread! :P AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #62

I didn't say I don't believe in defending 'our allies.' pangaia Apr 2014 #63

Our military is huge but its spread thin AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #67

OK. I can work with that. pangaia Apr 2014 #100

It's spread thin by being spread everywhere. AcertainLiz Apr 2014 #132

"To those who'd say a bigger U.S. war budget would have stopped Putin" ?!? EX500rider Apr 2014 #11

Uh, pretty much every Republican in Congress. And most RW talk radio. Ken Burch Apr 2014 #15

Sorry, thought you meant here. n/t EX500rider Apr 2014 #16

Not to encourage more military spending, which would be a waste in my opinion, but... JVS Apr 2014 #25

It's only a 'sobering fact' to those who aren't already drunk with tearing down anything Obama does. randome Apr 2014 #26

Huh? 1000words Apr 2014 #167

This isn't an anti-Obama thread Ken Burch Apr 2014 #187

Death Budget? agbdf Apr 2014 #27

It's enough to defend our own territory from external attack. Ken Burch Apr 2014 #73

Oh no! The current commander in chief... JackRiddler Apr 2014 #103

LOL so true.. we spend more than everyone else combined... the fuck is spending more going to dionysus Apr 2014 #33

We have the most expensive military in the world....but we keep losing wars. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2014 #46

Adventures overseas....? Bigmack Apr 2014 #64

Cold War II may do to us what Cold War I did to the USSR.... Junkdrawer Apr 2014 #74

A Bigger War Budget Wouldn't have changed anything agbdf Apr 2014 #128