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Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
21. I agree with much but disagree with the part about "whining" etc.
Sat Apr 19, 2014, 11:29 PM
Apr 2014

You write:

If you've been whining, pleading, arguing, or using any psychological strategies, it's no.

This is far too broad. A person can't give legally effective consent (to sex or anything else) if unconscious, or threatened with force, or underage, or any number of other situations -- but all of us routinely engage in nonviolently persuading other people.

A case study for your consideration:

Example 1: Star college athlete has dated another student a few times when they have a conversation.
He: "I'd really like to have sex with you right now? Would that be OK?"
She: "No, I'm uncomfortable about that. Let's take this a little more slowly."
He: "Well, I'm really horny and I'm uncomfortable with waiting longer. If you don't want to have sex now, I'll respect that, go away, and never date you again. If we have sex now, you can be my girlfriend, go with me to the many parties I'm invited to, be part of my crowd, and be more popular on campus."
She agrees and they have sex.

Example 2: A salesman for a lawn-care company has come to the door of a single woman who owns her own house.
He: "I'd really like for you to hire us to care for your lawn. We'll remove dead leaves, plant some flowers along the walk, and use fertilizer that will make your grass look much greener and prettier. Would that be OK?"
She: "No, I'm not interested in that."
He: "Right now you have, frankly, one of the most decrepit-looking lawns on the block. If you hire us it will make the whole block look better and you'll be more popular in the neighborhood."
She agrees and gives him the money.

If Example 1 is rape, then is Example 2 theft? Put more broadly, are we saying that adults can make their own decisions about money (provided there's no fraud, no threat of force, etc.), even if their decisions are procured by whining, pleading, arguing, or using any psychological strategies, but that adults (or maybe just adult women) are incapable of making free decisions under those circumstances if the context is sex rather than money?

Finally, I agree with your conclusion about communicating with the other person, so here's another case for your comment:

Example 3:
He: "I'd really like to have sex with you right now? Would that be OK?"
She: "No, I'm uncomfortable about that."
He: "Oh, what are you thinking about what's happening?"
She: "I'm worried about HIV, and even a condom isn't absolutely 100% certain protection."
He: "I understand. I can tell you that, after my last relationship ended, I waited three months and got tested for HIV. The result was negative. Since that relationship ended, I haven't had sex, protected or unprotected, with anyone else, nor have I used IV drugs or received a blood transfusion. As I understand the medical science, those facts combined mean that I'm not carrying HIV."
She: "In that case, yes, let's have sex."

Was that rape? He engaged in arguing. (An argument is a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition, as anyone knows who's seen the "Argument Clinic" by Monty Python.) By arguing, he changed her No to a Yes. It seems that, by your definition, he raped her, or at least committed a sexual assault. I'd say his behavior was perfectly proper.

By contrast, the man in Example 1 was a selfish and insensitive clod. To say that he committed rape or sexual assault, however, seems to imply that the woman is not capable of making her own decisions about sex. I say that it's not rape or sexual assault -- because I respect women's autonomy.
~kick! CrispyQ Apr 2014 #1
Thanks for the kick! MineralMan Apr 2014 #2
I don't think we're teaching empathy MineralMan Apr 2014 #3
Well, I never had much to do with the "cool crowd." MineralMan Apr 2014 #31
I know that rape and sexual assault are about power, but it also happens because LuvNewcastle Apr 2014 #4
Well, my opinion about that is that if you're MineralMan Apr 2014 #5
Recreational sex isn't really my style, either. LuvNewcastle Apr 2014 #8
I'm OK with it, or was in my younger years. MineralMan Apr 2014 #13
Thank you for posting this. K&R Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2014 #6
And thank you for replying to it. MineralMan Apr 2014 #11
Kicked and recommended! In_The_Wind Apr 2014 #7
k&r, uppityperson Apr 2014 #9
K & R n/t Aerows Apr 2014 #10
Thanks for the K&Rs! MineralMan Apr 2014 #12
What a fantastic way you laid out this op mineral. Nt seabeyond Apr 2014 #14
Thank you. I've been thinking about posting something MineralMan Apr 2014 #15
A friend told me the boys at her son's college, in orientation, Bette Noir Apr 2014 #16
Good for that college. MineralMan Apr 2014 #19
Ha! I love that! Prophet 451 Apr 2014 #76
KnR with naught more to add other than thank you. chknltl Apr 2014 #17
More: How to know if it's "Yes!" MineralMan Apr 2014 #18
Very nice, thank you. MuseRider Apr 2014 #20
I agree with much but disagree with the part about "whining" etc. Jim Lane Apr 2014 #21
Examples 1 & 3 certainly don't sound like rape scenarios. But if the guy's pushy all the time then nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #22
I disagree. What I wrote is the OPPOSITE of minimizing rape. Jim Lane Apr 2014 #24
Stop minimizing rape, Jim. CFLDem Apr 2014 #27
Let's look at this from another perspective: chervilant Apr 2014 #25
Example 1 is coercion, pure and simple intaglio Apr 2014 #26
Poor examples, all. chervilant Apr 2014 #29
Have you ever heard anyone talk TBF Apr 2014 #28
Real-life conversations are indeed much more nuanced and ambiguous. Jim Lane Apr 2014 #61
I think if you turn TBF Apr 2014 #64
Trust me, I wasn't offering Example 1 as relationship advice. Jim Lane Apr 2014 #67
Nope, I'm not counseling anything other than TBF Apr 2014 #78
Your first example is coercive. MineralMan Apr 2014 #30
I disagree. She said no and instead of respecting that he pressed her on it. If she says no IT'S NO. redqueen Apr 2014 #32
I understand what you're saying, and tend to agree. MineralMan Apr 2014 #35
Didn't read it. She said no. redqueen Apr 2014 #39
No is a complete sentence. KitSileya Apr 2014 #40
"Treat anyone's no as negotiable, and you are enabling rape culture, pure and simple." <- BOOM redqueen Apr 2014 #43
But asking why someone is uncomfortable isn't necessarily enabling rape culture. msanthrope Apr 2014 #77
Follow-up question for redqueen and KitSileya Jim Lane Apr 2014 #63
It's not necessarily a crime, or provable as one at least, but that doesn't make it okay to keep nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #65
We're talking ethics here. KitSileya Apr 2014 #75
The "was this rape" question involves both law and ethics. Jim Lane Apr 2014 #81
What if the athlete says it in a slightly different manner? Hippo_Tron Apr 2014 #33
It's still coercive. MineralMan Apr 2014 #34
Maybe I'm confusing two different things here Hippo_Tron Apr 2014 #36
Nope. It's still coercive. MineralMan Apr 2014 #37
So how does one tactfully say they don't want to be in a relationship with no sex? Hippo_Tron Apr 2014 #38
Nobody is obligated to continue dating anyone. MineralMan Apr 2014 #41
Right, and that's why I think this is NOT coercive. Jim Lane Apr 2014 #62
Why are you spending so much energy debating where the "line" is anyway? nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #66
The OP was thought-provoking and I shared some of the thoughts it provoked. Jim Lane Apr 2014 #69
I do not want to date you noiretextatique Apr 2014 #42
I think "I do not want to date you" is a shitty way to break up with someone Hippo_Tron Apr 2014 #46
Yours is closer to respectable. redqueen Apr 2014 #47
Well no, he should find someone who has a similar timeframe about sex Hippo_Tron Apr 2014 #48
He's clearly got a problem waiting for a woman to be ready. redqueen Apr 2014 #49
Well I don't agree that it's a problem, but... Hippo_Tron Apr 2014 #50
no it isn't qazplm Apr 2014 #51
Oh, yes it is. MineralMan Apr 2014 #52
can you cite Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #53
What criminal code? MineralMan Apr 2014 #54
so basically you're just a opining Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #55
I'm having trouble understanding your reply. MineralMan Apr 2014 #56
fixed Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #57
Sexual assault can be defined in law or in MineralMan Apr 2014 #58
I think your op would be more accurate amd better Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #59
OK. Well, thanks for your feedback. MineralMan Apr 2014 #60
So if it's technically not rape by a strict legal definition, then it's a-okay? nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #70
hmmmm no cause she can Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #71
what a load noiretextatique Apr 2014 #44
whining for sex because, yeah, that is So Attractive ... NOT !!! Tuesday Afternoon Apr 2014 #45
And if in doubt, you can always ask. Merely saying "Is this okay?" shouldn't ruin the moment. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #68
Love the use of the "Don't be that guy" line. Ken Burch Apr 2014 #72
The chronology was the other way around. Jim Lane Apr 2014 #73
I didn't know that. n/t. Ken Burch Apr 2014 #74
How about, Brigid Apr 2014 #79
Pretty ugly situation that would require that, for sure. MineralMan Apr 2014 #80
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