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The Straight Story

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115. The holy relic part isn't guns, it's freedoms. From abortion to speech to guns

Tue Apr 22, 2014, 06:01 PM

Apr 2014

Some of us see this as a discussion on freedoms.

Every time a new law about abortion gets thrown out by the conservatives people rail against it. Even if it is a 'small impact' law because they know the end goal is to outlaw them.

Same steps are used by people who hate that others own something they don't like. Same goes for a lot of things people don't like (smoking as another example).

I don't own a gun, I don't see the debate as about the object but the underlying principles involved and being consistent in their application and common sense applications of laws/regulations to balance out concerns.

It is black and white at the core and grey around the edges. Conceal carry laws requiring training/etc. Ok.

Blaming ninety-nine percent of people for what less than one percent do I call bias. Because it is. Using that bias to foster fear of the many and using that fear to drive legislation isn't any better than when the right does it when it comes to muslims and their fear of terrorism.

I can't get an abortion but I defend the right of others to. I am not gay so I won't be needing a gay marriage but for those who do I support you. I don't own a gun but should I desire to buy one I would like the freedom to do so. And I am not Muslim but if you want to build a mosque near my home be my guest.

Those things all have freedom in common - some on the right and left though just don't care and want to push their personal issues while complaining that others are trying to take away their freedoms.

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15 Years After Columbine, How "Never Again" Became "Oh Well" [View all] Hissyspit Apr 2014 OP

The phenomenon of mass murder is quite rare, Eleanors38 Apr 2014 #1

But I'm sure the fact we're unable to pass even moderate gun control in this country, doesn't help. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #3

Universal background checks had no chance when they bundled them with an AWB hack89 Apr 2014 #5

Universial background checks would not stop mass shootings. Look at the last few...... Logical Apr 2014 #8

"Criminals have no trouble getting guns." Therefore no gun control whatsoever? nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #13

Let me know what you propose. Most here post irrational crap that will stop nothing. nt Logical Apr 2014 #14

You mean this Wild West Lurks Often Apr 2014 #41

Hmm lots of things to question about this article Egnever Apr 2014 #58

It matches other things I have read Lurks Often Apr 2014 #60

Every thing is less violent than the movies Egnever Apr 2014 #64

Much like this entire thread is a pathetic attempt for more gun control n/t Lurks Often Apr 2014 #65

Could be Egnever Apr 2014 #66

This message was self-deleted by its author XRubicon Apr 2014 #116

Would you offer anything up to reach a deal? badtoworse Apr 2014 #10

I thought cutting down on the thousands of homicides a year would be good enough. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #16

Respectfully, your post reveals part of the problem: Eleanors38 Apr 2014 #22

I don't accept that thousands of homicides would be prevented with "relatively mild" measures badtoworse Apr 2014 #34

The knee-jerk reaction was typical and timeworn... krispos42 Apr 2014 #11

Yes, the murder rate is substantially lower than 20 years. But it's still the highest in the nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #15

Our homicide rate is about 3x that of GB krispos42 Apr 2014 #20

It failed (as it should have) for several reasons. Skip Intro Apr 2014 #23

Your post is insulting on many levels lapislzi Apr 2014 #37

As truth to the gullible often is. Skip Intro Apr 2014 #42

you're accusing the families of the victims of using Newtown as a "PR gimmick"? CreekDog Apr 2014 #48

Another lie from CreekDog (who jokes of electrocuted teens, btw - w/ link). Skip Intro Apr 2014 #50

been keeping screencaptures for 5 years now? CreekDog Apr 2014 #51

Oh, so some dead kids are funny to you, eh, CreekDog? Skip Intro Apr 2014 #52

well i guess you got me CreekDog Apr 2014 #53

Ah, you made some people laugh at the girl's death? Good job, then, CreekDog! Skip Intro Apr 2014 #54

Puma huh? CreekDog Apr 2014 #55

Oh man, that is sad. n/t Skip Intro Apr 2014 #57

even though Paul said he was against the Civil Rights Act CreekDog Apr 2014 #63

pretty weak to post that out of context Egnever Apr 2014 #67

I'm well aware of the realities of the situation. lapislzi Apr 2014 #69

First, kids getting shot in school is not OK with ANYBODY. Skip Intro Apr 2014 #74

I will agree with you on a couple of points. lapislzi Apr 2014 #79

Not knowledgeable about guns or the proper terminology for the various types and styles of... 3catwoman3 Apr 2014 #140

You're referring to biometric or RFID systems that lock out unauthorized users. Bazinga Apr 2014 #149

and shortly before or that a lunatic opened up on firefighters in a suburb on my city with an AR dionysus Apr 2014 #108

As much as this place sucks now, I still don't think I've seen anything as disgusting as your post Number23 Apr 2014 #148

Your insight on generational change being the answer is, I believe, correct. CTyankee Apr 2014 #44

Post removed Post removed Apr 2014 #78

How about you tell me lapislzi Apr 2014 #85

Post removed Post removed Apr 2014 #88

The cold contempt you and others with your agenda hold the families in kcr Apr 2014 #144

But it's not the families. Bazinga Apr 2014 #152

Nope. Doesn't seem a bit disingenuous to me. Not at all. kcr Apr 2014 #154

I have no particular interest in taking away your guns. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #89

The first step would be opening up the NICS to private sales. Bazinga Apr 2014 #101

Universal background checks, and at least state-level registration. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #103

I'm all for UBCs, though not necessarily how they were proposed after Sandy Hook. Bazinga Apr 2014 #114

Fair enough. But I'm open to anything that might reduce our thousands of gun homicides a year nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #118

That's part of our problem, the willingness to "try anything" Bazinga Apr 2014 #125

I agree the focus on semi-auto rifles is excessive, when handguns are responsible for most of the nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #132

I have a brother who owns a gun shop and shooting range in CA Bazinga Apr 2014 #153

Hopefully, preventing the worst of the crazies from having guns, or at least from obtaining more. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #162

If the goal is to prevent prohibited persons from obtaining weapons, Bazinga Apr 2014 #164

If they have a criminal (certainly felony) record since obtaining the gun, then yes, it should be nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #165

I agree, newly convicted felons should have their guns confiscated. Bazinga Apr 2014 #167

So what do we do about the admittedly fairly small minority of gun owners who are a potential nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #168

We do the same thing.. Bazinga Apr 2014 #169

I don't consider gun owners in general my opponents. Only those opposed to any gun control at all nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #170

suicide bombers- not just America KittyWampus Apr 2014 #38

Political and religious extremism play an even more obscure role Eleanors38 Apr 2014 #59

Generally, our very violent culture is produced for us .... Mondavi Apr 2014 #56

Good points. The spate of Cali freeway chases went national Eleanors38 Apr 2014 #61

It's rare in most civilized countries that have strong gun laws. It's not rare here. Arugula Latte Apr 2014 #76

Even Mother Jones says it is rare: 62 cases in 31 yrs. Eleanors38 Apr 2014 #104

And other countries have a small fraction of 62. Arugula Latte Apr 2014 #106

They are neither abstract nor frequent. Eleanors38 Apr 2014 #145

Never blkmusclmachine Apr 2014 #2

the paranoid gun humpers have won Skittles Apr 2014 #4

No hack89 Apr 2014 #6

ridiculous Skittles Apr 2014 #27

Around here any dissent on gun control = gun humper hack89 Apr 2014 #31

And people like you are as bad as the "everyone should be armed" group. No logic needed. nt Logical Apr 2014 #7

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight Skittles Apr 2014 #26

Paranoid gun humpers? Generalize much? badtoworse Apr 2014 #9

riiiiiiiiight Skittles Apr 2014 #24

What an erudite response badtoworse Apr 2014 #33

And exactly who is calling for "everyone" to be armed? Cite, please. Jgarrick Apr 2014 #12

I'll give you one hint Skittles Apr 2014 #28

Link? One where they call for everyone to be armed? Jgarrick Apr 2014 #39

what is a "gun humper?" n/t Skip Intro Apr 2014 #17

you know EXACTLY what they are Skittles Apr 2014 #25

Typically it is anyone who believes in the freedom of civilians/poor to own a gun The Straight Story Apr 2014 #43

You need a license and registration papers to drive a car, why not to own a gun? nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #92

You don't need them to own a car The Straight Story Apr 2014 #105

nice ad hominem attack Duckhunter935 Apr 2014 #18

Get past the fear and culture war and look at celebrity and recognition. Eleanors38 Apr 2014 #19

I agree Duckhunter935 Apr 2014 #21

Hear, hear!!!! n/t Mugu Apr 2014 #30

Insults and strawman arguments. Gee, THAT'S helpful. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2014 #36

Hell, they've even won on this thread. Crunchy Frog Apr 2014 #93

yup Skittles Apr 2014 #111

Dear Skittles, I respect you immensely lapislzi Apr 2014 #158

I am fucking SICK of them Skittles Apr 2014 #163

A big +1 Packerowner740 Apr 2014 #166

we sure like to wallow--our only actions are blundering vengeance against brown people (Afghanistan, MisterP Apr 2014 #29

The blood of those dead children and ... 99Forever Apr 2014 #32

And to think, I was blaming the murder of children on the murderers themselves... Jgarrick Apr 2014 #40

Those that aid and abet carry the burden of the results of their actions. 99Forever Apr 2014 #45

Since you have knowledge of someone aiding and abetting in the murder of children who has not been Jgarrick Apr 2014 #47

Dead children is the price we pay to save the guns. Iggo Apr 2014 #35

Alcohol claims the lives of 4.13 Sandy Hooks every WEEK Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #62

We can't do anything about guns because there are other things which claim more lives Major Nikon Apr 2014 #70

That's the problem, you want to do "ANYTHING!" You don't even know what it is you want to do or why. Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #71

The gun homicide rate in the US rivals 3rd world countries Major Nikon Apr 2014 #72

"the gun homicide rates in the inner cities" Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #73

Sure, just so long as we don't do anything about precious, right? Major Nikon Apr 2014 #75

You stated yourself that the inner cities had a higher murder rate than rural communities. Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #77

Where do you think the inner city guns come from? Major Nikon Apr 2014 #80

You're still saying, but not acknowledging, the fact that the Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #81

Ah yes, a clever repackaging of the tired old "guns don't kill people" meme Major Nikon Apr 2014 #82

"violence increases when population densities increase." Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #83

You're still stuck on the bullshit meme Major Nikon Apr 2014 #86

So what you're saying is -- Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #87

oh, good lord, he didn't say that! CTyankee Apr 2014 #90

Where did the poster attempt to contend with criminal intent? Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #96

I read what he said. He said access to guns made it easier. CTyankee Apr 2014 #99

Yes, I read the exact same thing. Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #102

His post #91 has a link that explains it all to you. READ IT. CTyankee Apr 2014 #107

But they have been refuted. Repeatedly. Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #109

I am talking about the List of countries by firearm-related death rate which he posted. CTyankee Apr 2014 #112

Yes. Is it your assertion that correlation = causation? Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #113

Ah, revelation! Thank you. It explains everything...of course...how could those countries CTyankee Apr 2014 #126

Well, it can't be guns because as US laws become more lax the homicide rate is dropping. Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #133

and how well we are doing up against all these other countries...isn't it marvelous? CTyankee Apr 2014 #136

Is it your assertion that it never does? kcr Apr 2014 #146

Considering the fact there are nations further down the list with Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #150

I wouldn't say that kcr Apr 2014 #155

What about countries higher on the list with fewer gun control laws? Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #156

So, not getting the concept or being disingenuous? kcr Apr 2014 #157

You're trying to pin the issue on a singular cause. Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #159

Nope, don't think I am. kcr Apr 2014 #160

Yes, I typed that. Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #161

"You want to eliminate the guns but are content in leaving the intent to commit murder" Major Nikon Apr 2014 #91

Really? Then how do you explain places where gun ownership is high but murder rates are low? Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #95

It's not all about gun ownership rates Major Nikon Apr 2014 #98

"It's about how the access to them is controlled." Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #100

the man who killed my niece was not a career criminal. He was law abiding until he wasn't. CTyankee Apr 2014 #127

An anecdote is not the basis for law and I think your retelling of events is suspect. Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #137

of course you don't believe me. And I don't care what you think. CTyankee Apr 2014 #147

Still waiting Major Nikon Apr 2014 #130

No you're not. You've been rebutted repeatedly you just ignore the facts. Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #134

What facts have you offered? Major Nikon Apr 2014 #135

You yourself said Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #139

Mexico? Major Nikon Apr 2014 #141

"what someone else offered?" Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #142

Universal background checks, and some form of registration - probably at the state, not federal nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #94

Interesting point. ZombieHorde Apr 2014 #128

Yep, sad. nt stevenleser Apr 2014 #46

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2014 #49

Speaking strictly for myself... MicaelS Apr 2014 #68

The deaths, the injuries, the violence, and the accidents are simply part and parcel of the price we LanternWaste Apr 2014 #84

I have no problem with gun ownership in itself. It's the elevation of the firearm to a kind of holy nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #97

"guns solve everything" Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #110

Not here, maybe. But that mentality does exist in the wider society - just look at the people who nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #119

I'm not following that at all. Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2014 #121

I mean how some people always, no matter what, take the side of the shooter. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #122

The holy relic part isn't guns, it's freedoms. From abortion to speech to guns The Straight Story Apr 2014 #115

I'm not opposed to gun ownership. All I want are background checks, some form of registration nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #120

Ok, The Straight Story Apr 2014 #124

So I think we're mostly on the same page, then. nomorenomore08 Apr 2014 #129

Makes sense. Good to have an intelligent discussion with someone on it :) The Straight Story Apr 2014 #138

Oh man, somebody open a window. XRubicon Apr 2014 #117

+1. (nt) Paladin Apr 2014 #123

For the most part, "both" sides seem to have the exact same argument. ZombieHorde Apr 2014 #131

The posts in this thread perfectly illustrate the points made in the OP. Crunchy Frog Apr 2014 #143

I keep my firearms SevenSixtyTwo Apr 2014 #151