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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
99. Marx was a Historian, his strength was connecting Economics with History
Wed Apr 23, 2014, 12:44 AM
Apr 2014

His books are read to this day by the CIA, for he was the first to really connect revolutions with economics. Marx pointed out as things go bad, you do NOT have a revolution, it is when the economy has hit bottom and is starting to recover that you have a revolution.

Marx pointed out the Reformation was more the result of economic and political power coming under the control of the then emerging "Middle Class" (what we would call the "Upper Middle Class" that part of the population earning more then what 90% of the people do, but still below the top 3% who are the true rich) and away from the old landed aristocracy. When the peasants of the Reformation tried to take the Reformation to the next level, that is to provide a greater share of the wealth of society to them, Luther ordered his supporters to put them down.

More on the German Peasant war of 1525:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Peasants'_War

What was pushing the Reformation was also pushing the peasants into open revolt, economic hardship tied in with the decline in weather do to what is now called the "Little Ice Age" a concept Marx did not know about and thus did not consider. On the other hand Marx did look at the problems of the peasants of the 1500s and used it to show when a revolution would occur (i.e. not as things go bad, but as things turn around).

In many ways that was Marx's strength. His concepts of economics, is rejected by other economics. I suspect the main reason is Marx takes Adam Smith policy (Marx considered himself a follow of Smith) to they logical end, and end up in a society where the rich have everything and the poor nothing, and before that occurs you will have a revolution for that is what has happened in the past.

Marx goes into the concept of "Stolen Labor" then defends it as what happens in any society, for people exchange their labor for other things. The classic "Stolen Labor" concept is when a workers builds something for his employer. What ever was made becomes the "Capital" of the employer. The workers get no further value from it, but the employer does even if the employer add nothing to the item. Over time more and more capital is the result of such "Stolen Labor". The "Stolen Labor" may have been used centuries before, but in Marx's term it is still "Stolen Labor" for the original worker who did the work to make the capital is NOT getting any profit from that labor, someone else is.

My opinion on this concept of "Stolen Labor" was that Marx was responding to those capitalists saying their investments was the key to their wealth, not the labor used to make those investments. Marx was setting up a system to justify taking the property of the wealthy on the grounds that wealth was NOT the product of anything they did, but what workers did in the past. It is a call NOT to rely on wealth as a measurement of economic health. Thus Marx both calls Capital "Stolen Wealth" and then justify such "Stolen Wealth" as something any society has to have. i.e. Capital is good and needed even if it is the product of the work of others.

Yes, Marx can be complex. When ask how he would set up a communistic society, he is reported to have said he did not know, but it would take 500 years after any labor revolution before we achieve one.

Remember the thrust of Marxism is turning power over to the bottom 90% of society, and that no ruling group has ever given up political power without a fight. How to get the system to work could only be achieved AFTER the removal from power of those people who oppose such changes. Thus the Revolution was NOT to impose Communism, but to set up a system that would lead to Communism by eliminating the power of Capitalists to prevent such improvements in society.

Thus, Marx is at his best looking at History, when Revolution will occur, and how people get power during such revolutions. In economics, his thrust was to justify a pro labor revolution, not to actually change Capitalist economic thought (Which Marx himself embraced). Marx opposition was to the CONTROL capitalists had over Society and they efforts to undermine Capitalism as an ongoing process. In Marx's view, capitalism had the seeds of its own destruction, and when that occur labor will take over as the ruling elite and take the improvements Capitalism provided and more equitable share them with all the people of society.

Side note: Marx actually has some bad words on the poor, He believed they would stab the Working Class in the back in any fight between labor and capital. Marx said that the poor, could be easily bought by Capital to attack Labor and that was done repeatedly during his life time. Thus Marx said Labor has to support the poor, but not to trust them.

Marx also pointed out a true Revolution occurs not only when things improve, but when the "Petty Bourgeois" roughly those making more the $100,000 today, are pushed into the Working Class as the rich finds out they can no longer cut the wages of the Working Class, and look to such "Petty Bourgeois" as the next place to get additional wealth from. It is these former "Petty Bourgeois" that have lead past revolutions and will do so in the future.

Thus Marx's great strength is as an historian and predictor of when a social revolution will occur. His economics is more aimed to justify a Communist take over of such a revolution then a true economic plan.

Just a comment on Karl Marx and why he is relative today, and that has to do with his study of history and his observations of what is needed to have a social revolution. His economic theories, outside of those areas, have no value today, but in regards to when we will see a social revolutions his writings are accurate.

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The American right has never been able to handle facts malaise Apr 2014 #1
... xchrom Apr 2014 #2
Nor does the American right have a clue about Marxism Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2014 #35
I have long believed that corporate America malaise Apr 2014 #41
Oh, there are plenty of other people who have studied Marx -- and Lenin Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2014 #105
Unfortunately the leaders have enough money that they don't have to handle facts hootinholler Apr 2014 #59
they can pay people to handle facts for them. TeamPooka Apr 2014 #66
This Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Apr 2014 #69
Mostly, they can't handle the fact that they've been suckered Warpy Apr 2014 #104
at some point Sherman A1 Apr 2014 #3
The system throws sufficient bones at the workers quaker bill Apr 2014 #6
And Communism raised so much fear, massive armies were raised happyslug Apr 2014 #98
That would be the smart thing to do, but unreg-capitalism doesnt have a mechanism for that. rhett o rick Apr 2014 #13
Unsustainable? Indeed. Hence increased surveillance RufusTFirefly Apr 2014 #22
Agreed Sherman A1 Apr 2014 #47
George II dropped some subtle-as-an-anvil clues... Eleanors38 Apr 2014 #55
Looks like America's middle class voted itself right out of existence nikto Apr 2014 #90
The Frog and the Scorpion would seem to fit here. nt Jeff Murdoch Apr 2014 #26
throwing bones to the people demigoddess Apr 2014 #88
Name calling is all they have, so they resort to it right away. nt bemildred Apr 2014 #4
"Thats Communism" is always the R.W. dotymed Apr 2014 #5
The insane part of that is... bvar22 Apr 2014 #56
Even more insane is their policies breed communists/ revolution ErikJ Apr 2014 #65
Has anyone read the book? Victor_c3 Apr 2014 #7
Bill Moyers, interviewing Paul Krugman, said it was something most could read rurallib Apr 2014 #8
Library? seabeckind Apr 2014 #9
My copy should arrive this week malaise Apr 2014 #10
Library? mikeysnot Apr 2014 #14
I just finished the introduction and moving to the body of the work. mulsh Apr 2014 #34
Thanks Victor_c3 Apr 2014 #37
I bought it last week daleo Apr 2014 #97
What is Piketty's stance on fluoridation? Orrex Apr 2014 #11
What? How does that possibly connect to economics? Thor_MN Apr 2014 #27
It has to do with the the implication that he's a communist. Orrex Apr 2014 #36
I get it, after the precious bodily fluid comment Thor_MN Apr 2014 #87
It has to do with your hard-core commie plot to introduce impurities into our precious bodily fluids tclambert Apr 2014 #39
Ever seen Piketty drink a glass of water? Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2014 #49
No, but have you seen this? DearAbby Apr 2014 #75
Hmm... Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2014 #77
Unfettered capitalism The Wizard Apr 2014 #12
So when will they do it again? The bankster's extortion worked. The biggist heist in rhett o rick Apr 2014 #15
They are still doing it n2doc Apr 2014 #23
And partly the bankers are getting away with it because of the truedelphi Apr 2014 #83
I am thinking that Pres Obama might have been "encouraged" to hire Geithner and Bernanke. rhett o rick Apr 2014 #86
Were you able to type out your reply with truedelphi Apr 2014 #92
Well I think it's easiest to see in the area of intelligence. rhett o rick Apr 2014 #108
A friend of mine had some interesting comments. HooptieWagon Apr 2014 #48
I'm reccing, though articles like this always give me pause. Starry Messenger Apr 2014 #16
There has never been a true Marxist/Communism country, they are/were a tyrannical dictatorship mrdmk Apr 2014 #80
I'm not a liberal, so we'll have to disagree. Starry Messenger Apr 2014 #93
No Surprise - The Behavior Is Predictable cantbeserious Apr 2014 #17
are they really scared? hfojvt Apr 2014 #18
The majority of Americans didn't read Milton Friedman or Friedrich Hayek alcibiades_mystery Apr 2014 #32
but those philosophies bought their way in hfojvt Apr 2014 #40
I don't think it is necessary for all Americans to read the book but it is essential that those who jwirr Apr 2014 #50
Check the top two selling books here at Powell's in Portland! cascadiance Apr 2014 #101
and it's $25 in hardcover hfojvt Apr 2014 #106
They will listen once Obama is out of office. nt kelliekat44 Apr 2014 #19
The best demo of this is to try to stan a pyramid upside down. Maybe that can get through to the kelliekat44 Apr 2014 #20
Why are economist so enamored with capitalism? fasttense Apr 2014 #21
Marx was an economist. kristopher Apr 2014 #38
Yes, Marx was an economist. I should not have lumped all economist into one group. fasttense Apr 2014 #51
Ok kristopher Apr 2014 #54
It's hard to explain centuries of destruction caused by capitalism fasttense Apr 2014 #107
How do you think we could eventually get "an educated and politically involved populace"? Dawgs Apr 2014 #58
This message was self-deleted by its author kristopher Apr 2014 #81
It's a good first step. kristopher Apr 2014 #82
Mandatory Voting? Done only in countries where they go through the motions of voting happyslug Apr 2014 #100
That has nothing to say about what might be done here kristopher Apr 2014 #103
Marx was a Historian, his strength was connecting Economics with History happyslug Apr 2014 #99
Not really relevant to the discussion kristopher Apr 2014 #102
I think it's highly ironic when someone runs away from Marx....... socialist_n_TN Apr 2014 #24
I wonder if he does that because Marx is so demonized by the cult of A. Smith in the academic econ Ed Suspicious Apr 2014 #42
Obviously he distances himself from Marx Progressive dog Apr 2014 #45
Sad abelenkpe Apr 2014 #25
K & R !!! WillyT Apr 2014 #28
The irony is that the majority of these wing nut flame throwers grew up.... Trust Buster Apr 2014 #29
Exactly randys1 Apr 2014 #31
When the dolts wake up to our reality things might change randys1 Apr 2014 #30
Climate change ... or peak oil (already here) ... one or the other ... or a bit of each ... brett_jv Apr 2014 #71
You know what angers me the most randys1 Apr 2014 #78
I could have done without that image in my head xfundy Apr 2014 #33
The title of this piece is deceptive raindaddy Apr 2014 #43
Not solely because of the right - TBF Apr 2014 #46
A baseball comes crashing through your window... raindaddy Apr 2014 #52
I didn't say they hadn't TBF Apr 2014 #53
And rightly so - he tells it like it is. K&R nt TBF Apr 2014 #44
Sold out on Amazon currently PasadenaTrudy Apr 2014 #57
All the RW has to do is scream marxist... IkeRepublican Apr 2014 #60
True that!!! raindaddy Apr 2014 #62
Douthat and his tribe Tsiyu Apr 2014 #61
Freedom Fries will be on the menu soon, catered by the MSM and Wall Street. nt adirondacker Apr 2014 #63
I don't think Mr. Piketty is a flash in the pan vlakitti Apr 2014 #64
To many people, shrinking resources, global collapse. WHEN CRABS ROAR Apr 2014 #67
Malthus was wrong. So are you. Ed Suspicious Apr 2014 #70
Well that was quick, nothing to worry about, whee WHEN CRABS ROAR Apr 2014 #79
Is not the entire right-wing screed, ideology, mantra about a government of, by, and for the indepat Apr 2014 #68
The PROBLEM is the Dems are busy trying to convince the rich that an oligarchy is a "bad" thing... Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2014 #72
Douthat is a moron, almost as stupid as Maureen Dowd. (nt) Paladin Apr 2014 #73
It's no wonder that Millenials prefer socialism to capitalism by a slight margin eridani Apr 2014 #74
The current income inequality is not sustainable Gothmog Apr 2014 #76
Please remember that this guy is incapable of predicting the future. AngryAmish Apr 2014 #84
Well Then... Let's Consider The Past... Because We KNOW That THAT Worked... WillyT Apr 2014 #91
Post removed Post removed Apr 2014 #94
That's An Accusation... Which Does Not Enhance Discussion... And Leaves Nobody Enlightened... WillyT Apr 2014 #95
I live right dab smack in the middle maindawg Apr 2014 #85
"A rising tide lifts all boats" Curmudgeoness Apr 2014 #89
Trckle Down, still in vogue in Washington DC. blkmusclmachine Apr 2014 #96
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