General Discussion

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)

166. When defending the indefensible

Reply to pscot (Reply #162)

Fri Apr 25, 2014, 02:15 PM

Apr 2014

...one must try to kill the messenger.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

248 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

New Yorker: "A Clear Violation of Obama's Promise" [View all] villager Apr 2014 OP

Really curious to see how this will be defended ... 1000words Apr 2014 #1

The sad thing is.. that of course, it will be. villager Apr 2014 #2

Well... perhaps he evolved. Situation different from 2007. Etc.. cthulu2016 Apr 2014 #5

According to one of the reliable defenders in this thread, "his hands were tied!" villager Apr 2014 #9

He's not a dictator, you know! cthulu2016 Apr 2014 #11

He doesn't have a magic wand! n/t QC Apr 2014 #34

...except when it comes to deciding which enemies of the State are to be killed without due process, Maedhros Apr 2014 #46

It's amazing isn't it How little power the POTUS has on the one hand, and the power of a Monarch sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #105

You make an excellent point Dragonfli Apr 2014 #110

Yes, you were right so why change? And we sure have had the proof of how right you were. sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #112

AND.... some enterprising individuals STILL got rich. bvar22 Apr 2014 #145

Of course, rising demand is good for business as well as Dragonfli Apr 2014 #156

+ 10,000 n/t truedelphi Apr 2014 #167

Some people have to cling on to their first choice because they can't admit a mistake Obnoxious_One Apr 2014 #222

Good post sabrina 1. nt. NCTraveler Apr 2014 #246

The Republicans MADE him do this!!! bvar22 Apr 2014 #144

Hint : see the DC appeal court ruling from January jberryhill Apr 2014 #37

No, his hands were not "tied" Super Iridium Apr 2014 #75

Hint: actually read the opinion. merrily Apr 2014 #199

K & R theaocp Apr 2014 #3

Good bye to the old, hello brave new world RobertEarl Apr 2014 #4

Presumably, other, freer countries will have more unfettered internet villager Apr 2014 #6

Was this written by the same reported as the one you reference in that JoePhilly Apr 2014 #7

Your desperate defenses of the indefensible are at once pathetic, and appreciated! villager Apr 2014 #8

I didn't defend anything ... and I have no problem kicking this nonsense. JoePhilly Apr 2014 #12

So you think all the different tech writers are like rightwing radio hosts? villager Apr 2014 #13

Many of them, yes. JoePhilly Apr 2014 #16

The only single "narrative" is yours, attempting to corral a range of writers, and a Senator, villager Apr 2014 #24

Relevant facts, as I know them, are in Reply 199. What is your version of merrily Apr 2014 #200

The important part of history is a court decision that merrily Apr 2014 #33

Yes but then they would not have had the excuse of zeemike Apr 2014 #47

The court did not tie the hands of the FCC. merrily Apr 2014 #49

Legislation could be enacted and pushed forward Obnoxious_One Apr 2014 #43

since you asked: pscot Apr 2014 #161

Please. Spare me. How could a law professor and FCC advisor possibly know better than merrily Apr 2014 #219

"Was this written...." "I get the sense...." "You should probably...." rhett o rick Apr 2014 #183

Politicans + lies = water + wet. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2014 #10

The article doesn't seem to address the reality of the ruling of Verizon vs. FCC stevenleser Apr 2014 #14

That is, of course, the official talking point that sprung up today. The ol' "no choice!" defense. villager Apr 2014 #15

When the article doesnt address the ruling at all and suggest how it could be worked around... stevenleser Apr 2014 #18

Again, the "deceptive" line is another of today's talking points. In fact, the FCC had choices villager Apr 2014 #20

If it's that simple, why don't the articles contain suggestions? Thats a point you cant get around. stevenleser Apr 2014 #21

The writers of the articles are not responsible for this. The FCC is. merrily Apr 2014 #52

If you are going to complain, you should explain what your desired end state is and how to get there stevenleser Apr 2014 #88

They are complaining about a broken campaign promise. That does not saddle them merrily Apr 2014 #101

Any three year old can whine about something. You don't need a journalist for that. stevenleser Apr 2014 #130

Folks like me? LOL. merrily Apr 2014 #139

That's despicable pscot Apr 2014 #162

When defending the indefensible AgingAmerican Apr 2014 #166

""Attacking the messenger" is a subdivision of the ad hominem logical fallacy." merrily Apr 2014 #198

Excellent post, thank you. Broken campaign promises must definitely should be noted. sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #224

Thank you. merrily Apr 2014 #228

The FCC needs to reclassify internet services as common carriers rather than information JDPriestly Apr 2014 #149

As several others have responded under this OP, that comes with its own set of issues. stevenleser Apr 2014 #158

I would make reclassifying the internet as a common carrier the top priority. JDPriestly Apr 2014 #187

I'd start by NOT appointing Cable Lobbyists to the FCC. Wheeler eg. sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #236

He seemed fine to everyone else on your side in this argument in his initial assessment of stevenleser Apr 2014 #237

That isn't an answer to the question I asked No Corporate lobbyists are fine sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #238

It seems that the admin defenders are not expressing how they feel about this rhett o rick Apr 2014 #177

And Genachowski sure didn't. merrily Apr 2014 #220

If the Goddamn Administration and Congress really wanted it, they can do it Armstead Apr 2014 #104

Saying it doesn't make it so. You have yet to explain how and you dont have the legal knowledge to stevenleser Apr 2014 #111

over the course of history we have regulated.... Armstead Apr 2014 #114

Then take the word of the FCC. merrily Apr 2014 #116

Ah, so you accept Tom Wheeler as a truthteller then? Excellent. Here is more recent stuff from him stevenleser Apr 2014 #131

I accept him as someone who said one thing in February about changing rules and an entirely merrily Apr 2014 #147

What a huge surprise. You blindly accept those words that support you and blindly reject those that stevenleser Apr 2014 #160

First, huh? Second, are you implying that is NOT what you have done all over this board? merrily Apr 2014 #165

What surreal horseshit, day after day. An Orwellian carnival of propaganda. woo me with science Apr 2014 #178

Thanks 1000words Apr 2014 #182

Thank you. It's crazy. It's the textbook definition of crazy, woo me with science Apr 2014 #185

Crazy, or first stage of grief (denial), or knowing which side your bread is merrily Apr 2014 #211

Excellent post. westerebus Apr 2014 #209

The FCC can do it. In February, Wheeler promised to do it. In April, he merrily Apr 2014 #221

The people came up with the solution, or so they thought. They elected Democrats sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #226

We're not talking about "the people" we're talking about the journalists who are complaining. stevenleser Apr 2014 #235

YOU are talking about turning Journalists into politicians, not WE. Journalists should not be sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #239

Well that proves one thing.. bobduca Apr 2014 #127

Good One bahrbearian Apr 2014 #135

Indeed. nt woo me with science Apr 2014 #184

My money is on another candidate. merrily Apr 2014 #207

Endorphins caused by active contortions bobduca Apr 2014 #214

What set of open internet rules could have satisfied that court? n/t pnwmom Apr 2014 #233

None of the articles being referenced do. JoePhilly Apr 2014 #17

It makes it hard to take them seriously. stevenleser Apr 2014 #23

It's hard to take the damn politicians seriously Armstead Apr 2014 #108

The ruling simpy advised the FCC that it had to reclassify the internet as a common carrier JDPriestly Apr 2014 #150

If only this was the only double cross... n/t truedelphi Apr 2014 #170

The FCC had to reclassify before it could regulate. merrily Apr 2014 #41

The FCC directive from 2002 would have to be changed...tell us your legal argument msanthrope Apr 2014 #53

According to the material that Leser quoted in his post, the court gave the FCC suggestions. merrily Apr 2014 #56

I think you've read that incorrectly. nt msanthrope Apr 2014 #80

Nope. I nailed it. merrily Apr 2014 #212

Just for kicks, do you happen to mean the 2002 directive that WAS changed in 2009? merrily Apr 2014 #63

It wasn't. Perhaps we think of different directives? nt msanthrope Apr 2014 #79

I know there were significant changes in FCC regs about not long before the lawsuit. merrily Apr 2014 #81

Again...I reference the 2002 designation and the subsequent Verizon case. Start there. nt msanthrope Apr 2014 #82

Cute. The Verizon case is what we've been discussing. merrily Apr 2014 #83

No....I'm referencing the 2002 Verizon case and the 2002 directive. This ain't msanthrope Apr 2014 #84

This game is tiresome. See you on another issue. merrily Apr 2014 #86

Not surprising that you can't outargue that person, they are an attorney and know better. nt stevenleser Apr 2014 #89

Thing is, she didn't really present any argument, legal or otherwise. merrily Apr 2014 #107

Msanthrope's fallacious argument from authority does nothing to justify the FCC's betrayal. Lasher Apr 2014 #115

The FCC thought it had the authority. Says a court said so. merrily Apr 2014 #118

Two words: Orly Taitz Lasher Apr 2014 #126

Well, trying to get any information useful to a lay person WAS like pulling teeth. merrily Apr 2014 #202

Regulatory agencies such as the FCC are there to write and change rules. That is their job. JDPriestly Apr 2014 #151

I called the "The FCC is as weak as kittens" meme they would resort to before they started Dragonfli Apr 2014 #154

Thanks. Yes. Another Obama twist and turn as he does the campaign-money-dance JDPriestly Apr 2014 #159

Presidential libraries cost a lot, too merrily Apr 2014 #203

What was your point about 2002? merrily Apr 2014 #195

And did you think that putting a Corporate Cable Lobbyist at the head of the FCC was going sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #240

I am sure the failure to reclassify before merrily Apr 2014 #245

Except there's other effects of declaring them common carriers. jeff47 Apr 2014 #55

Yes, I heard you the first time. merrily Apr 2014 #59

Well, when you reply in 3 different places, you're gonna get 3 different replies. jeff47 Apr 2014 #60

Excuse me for assuming that something you posted to me was intended to apply to me. merrily Apr 2014 #62

Well, if you'd actually read it jeff47 Apr 2014 #64

I ask again, please stop lying about me. merrily Apr 2014 #66

PS, the "whatever is, is good" and "there's nothing to see here" approaches are not great for merrily Apr 2014 #61

You continue to do an excellent job of reading that which is not present in the posts jeff47 Apr 2014 #68

There is a lot of that going on, i.e. the "his hands are tied" meme which none of us said. stevenleser Apr 2014 #90

"When those against us have to use straw man arguments, that is as good as an admission of defeat." villager Apr 2014 #98

So, no one claimed that the court ruling was a roadblock for the FCC? merrily Apr 2014 #121

Creating a strawman to get you out of a strawman? How about using people's actual arguments? stevenleser Apr 2014 #128

So, you didn't claim the court ruling was an obstacle to reclassification? merrily Apr 2014 #148

Why do you find it so hard to use people's actual words? Is that really so hard for you? nt stevenleser Apr 2014 #157

I might well ask you the identical question. merrily Apr 2014 #164

What I find most amusing in this jberryhill Apr 2014 #152

It is amusing. There are a group of Obama critics here who don't care about facts they just want stevenleser Apr 2014 #155

After the fifth or sixth time Obama gutted social security... jberryhill Apr 2014 #181

The only bad facts and bad interpretations on this thread did not come from critics of the FCC move. merrily Apr 2014 #213

What I find interesting is that you claim to follow this merrily Apr 2014 #216

What underlies the resistance to all reality is the concept treestar Apr 2014 #206

What laws? What resistance to reality? merrily Apr 2014 #217

Introduce net neutrality and the internet service providers will have to compete based on net JDPriestly Apr 2014 #153

Correct. Maven Apr 2014 #72

Yep. Day 4 of denial of reality and counting. merrily Apr 2014 #223

The FCC can at any time choose to reclassify broadband as a public utility Dragonfli Apr 2014 #87

And as many under this OP have pointed out, that comes with its own set of problems. stevenleser Apr 2014 #91

The main problems are money is to be made by this move Dragonfli Apr 2014 #92

I think only Jeff47 said there were problems and the ones he cited were makeweight. merrily Apr 2014 #124

Good find. Thank you. merrily Apr 2014 #93

Everyone except those who's job it is to polish turds for the 1% pretty much knew Dragonfli Apr 2014 #99

Genachowski was the first. Seemed like a good choice, except for having had a lot to do merrily Apr 2014 #113

If you are interested, here is the FCC's 2014 promise of net neutrality, all of merrily Apr 2014 #125

Yes, common carrier is an option, and that gets us Net Neutrality jeff47 Apr 2014 #140

"So is net neutrality worth losing tiers, and thus upgrades?" Yes. As YOU said, NN is the ideal. merrily Apr 2014 #201

No, those market forces are greatly reduced jeff47 Apr 2014 #243

No new law needed. Despite all the attempts of the merrily Apr 2014 #244

Reading. Try it!! It's fun!! jeff47 Apr 2014 #247

Right back atcha. merrily Apr 2014 #248

Thanks for this explanation. So the FCC situation is one truedelphi Apr 2014 #169

You are more than welcome. merrily Apr 2014 #173

Merrily - I know exactly that sensation of dread truedelphi Apr 2014 #174

Wow. THANKS. merrily Apr 2014 #179

PS. It was not so much a sense of dread as just finding some merrily Apr 2014 #197

People have tried to defend this earlier, saying this isn't a big deal. Xyzse Apr 2014 #19

Maybe the same way Republicans can say the US is first in the world in health care? merrily Apr 2014 #193

It's Obama. He's PT Barnum without the big top. nt Demo_Chris Apr 2014 #22

Bamboozled n/t whatchamacallit Apr 2014 #25

I guess we'll hear all about how powerless the FCC was to sidestep the ruling. pa28 Apr 2014 #26

Are you kidding? It's already being apologized for thusly in this very thread! villager Apr 2014 #27

What would be helpful is suggestions for the FCC that are Constitutional. stevenleser Apr 2014 #28

The decision gave Chairman Wheeler quite a bit of latitude to re-write and re-classify. pa28 Apr 2014 #31

Not really. jeff47 Apr 2014 #38

The FCC is powerless. pa28 Apr 2014 #45

No, but it is a whole lot easier to incinerate that strawman. jeff47 Apr 2014 #50

Which of course, is very different from saying the ruling all but prohibited the FCC from merrily Apr 2014 #67

No, I said they had two options. Common Carrier or no net neutrality. jeff47 Apr 2014 #70

Again, I am not following you from thread to thread, even if you ask me to do so. merrily Apr 2014 #122

The FCC has chosen to exercise its power to enrich broadband merrily Apr 2014 #225

I'm going with deliberate bullshit. pa28 Apr 2014 #227

Who am I to try to change your mind? . merrily Apr 2014 #229

Kindly elaborate with some specifics. merrily Apr 2014 #65

Start by not appointing Republican, Cable Lobbyist to head the FCC. sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #241

Yes, it's not like there was a SCOTUS ruling in 2014 or anything. jeff47 Apr 2014 #29

Technically the DC Court of Appeals, but your point stands. Exactly right. nt stevenleser Apr 2014 #30

Is the court ruling even mentioned in the article? jberryhill Apr 2014 #35

Nope. Article doesn't bother. jeff47 Apr 2014 #39

Why do you think it needs to? The goal was net neutrality. There was no goal of maintaining tiers TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #218

It could work out well, or it could work out poorly. jeff47 Apr 2014 #242

Please see Reply 41. merrily Apr 2014 #42

Hmm. I seem to remember your posts after the court ruling. They were nothing like this one. merrily Apr 2014 #44

Sweet! I have a stalker!!! (nt) jeff47 Apr 2014 #51

Non-responsive and utterly untrue. merrily Apr 2014 #54

You do an excellent job of reading things that are not there. jeff47 Apr 2014 #58

Baloney, but you excel at moving goal posts and saying anything. Anything at all. merrily Apr 2014 #73

Again, you excel at reading things that are not there. jeff47 Apr 2014 #138

If that means we keep having extremely slow and extremely expensive Internet service, that's merrily Apr 2014 #142

Exactly. I guess its easier for people to set up strawmen then talk through the challenges. stevenleser Apr 2014 #129

There is no strawman. Strawman is not an acronym for objectives. The objective is net neutrality TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #204

There are several easily demonstrable strawmen being peddled by those attacking the administration. stevenleser Apr 2014 #205

Well, it sure isn't that net neutrality had to be abandoned. That is a choice. TheKentuckian Apr 2014 #208

Very impressive post. merrily Apr 2014 #210

The ruling did not prevent the FCC from reclassifying and it was not a SCOTUS ruling. merrily Apr 2014 #69

You know, you were just complaining about replies in multiple places jeff47 Apr 2014 #71

No, that was you. You complained about my posting replies in multiple places. merrily Apr 2014 #76

And that number is 1 888 225 5322 sgtbenobo Apr 2014 #32

The FCC KNOWS that most Americans want merrily Apr 2014 #48

This isn't remotely the first "promise".. sendero Apr 2014 #36

Correct. 840high Apr 2014 #74

"Every government is run by liars and nothing they say should be believed." ~I.F. Stone DeSwiss Apr 2014 #40

Then we should end political campaigns. Huge expenditure of merrily Apr 2014 #103

We're not too bright...... :-/ n/t DeSwiss Apr 2014 #109

Seems we're not very authentic sometimes, either. merrily Apr 2014 #120

! DeSwiss Apr 2014 #186

Sold out. OnyxCollie Apr 2014 #57

It's amazing how relatively little we get sold out for. merrily Apr 2014 #232

Craven betrayal Amak8 Apr 2014 #77

Amazing thread. An article says that Obama broke a firm campaign promise. merrily Apr 2014 #78

I'm Not Allowed To Say... WillyT Apr 2014 #94

Over time, it has become clear that there are no depths to which some won't sink DisgustipatedinCA Apr 2014 #96

He isn't alone -- Google pulled a hypocritical 180-turn as well Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #85

When did Google campaign for President by firmly promising America net neutrality? merrily Apr 2014 #100

I think you're grossly underestimating google's political reach... Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #133

I think you're vastly overestimating the similarity between Google and a POTUS. merrily Apr 2014 #146

So show me one politician anywhere who is batting 1.000 on his campaign promises? Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #190

Not the point. merrily Apr 2014 #191

I think this is the first time I've seen the "he cant get everything right" excuse. nm rhett o rick Apr 2014 #234

We didn't vote for Google. sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #106

But if you use google, you're indirectly contributing to the problem Blue_Tires Apr 2014 #132

That's why we elected Democrats, so they would ensure that the internet would be sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #136

K & R !!! WillyT Apr 2014 #95

Thats what was said back there, what matters is whats said forward...nt Jesus Malverde Apr 2014 #97

Sure. Presidential candidates should be able to make any promise they wish merrily Apr 2014 #102

Call it pragmatism. Lasher Apr 2014 #117

Thanks. I'll add that to my list of things I call it. merrily Apr 2014 #119

No Your funny Jesus Malverde Apr 2014 #141

See I told you, you're funny and I was correct. merrily Apr 2014 #143

Breaking campaign promises... 99Forever Apr 2014 #123

K&R This is America under corporate rule. woo me with science Apr 2014 #134

too true, woo. WHile the president can rightfully be blamed for running a campaign of lies, Doctor_J Apr 2014 #189

Damn, woo. I am bookmarking your Reply 134. merrily Apr 2014 #230

Candidate Obama was also committed to a public option for health care, fixing NAFTA, Doctor_J Apr 2014 #137

Obama ticked all the boxes during his big campaign rallies in 2008. pa28 Apr 2014 #163

Know something? I never believed in alien abduction until I truedelphi Apr 2014 #175

To borrow a line from Colbert, "It's funny, 'cause it's true."" merrily Apr 2014 #231

Maybe TPP is his fix for NAFTA? merrily Apr 2014 #192

the New Yorker is a libertarian rag! Fuck Ron Paul and all of his followers!! Douglas Carpenter Apr 2014 #168

Why does the New Yorker love Putin!? villager Apr 2014 #171

Fuck Ron Paul! Dragonfli Apr 2014 #172

And when you're done fucking Ron and Rand Paul, fuck Greenwald! And all his followers!!! Doctor_J Apr 2014 #188

Yes, that's it. I don't know how I missed it. merrily Apr 2014 #194

Punish him by electing more liberal Democrats at every level IronLionZion Apr 2014 #176

We punished him in advance that way in 2008 merrily Apr 2014 #196

Huge K&R woo me with science Apr 2014 #180

Candidate Obama where did you go? bobduca Apr 2014 #215