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[AcertainLiz]

993. Well yes some old folks aren't mature

But then again, what I'm proposing would have the benefit of maturing people, no?

"I draw the difference because the vast majority of children are incapable of the abstract and critical thinking of adults. This is why we have an age of adulthood and age of consent in this country. The brain of a child is not fully developed; and while it is true that we don't all mature at the same rate the vast majority of children have sufficient mental development by this age to make more complex decisions. "

You're not fully developed at 18 though and I don't think mandatory education should end then. I think the end of mandatory education should be mandatory training and service in some sort of civil capacity, like in some other countries. I don't see what's so evil and bad about this.

"I agree. Personally I would argue that it should be around 21 years of age but that is me. That said, even if we did move up the age, I feel that someone who the country does not feel is mentally ready to vote is most certainly not mentally ready to risk their lives for the country or to face the grueling nature of boot camp. "

Well yes I actually do think 20, 21 should be the age of adulthood, but that's beside the point (I think the voting age should be lowered to 16 though). If someone was incapable of military training and service and totally unfit for civil defense, I don't see why some sort of service couldn't be found for them? Regardless, as my dad said, most could survive boot camp. It's not a gas chamber.

Personally, I'd want it to start at 16, 17 for drop outs who obviously aren't doing anything with their lives.

"I did not say "totally erases one individual indentity" and to make that claim is Reductio Ad Absurdum. "

You're acting like it though. Not everyone revolves around your individualism. People need to learn that.

"If the military were such a great place to achieve the collectivist attitudes we want to promote why is it currently such a hotbed of conservatism currently? Because its promoting the wrong type of collectism. "

This is due to its entirely all-volunteer basis actually.

"Not all forms of collectivism are equal and some are arguably harmful. In particular, the vertical or heirarchal collectivism promoted by the military as opposed to the horizontal collectivism of a charity. This type of collectivism furthers authoratarian attitudes and discourages questioning of the status quo. "

But that sort of authoritarianism is needed in some settings and everyone should be exposed to a little of it, if you ask me.

"Forcing any type of service is only going to cause resentment and disdain and if anything, is going to drive young people away from such endevours in the future. Fostering a culture of voluntary service will promote people doing these sort of things because they WANT to, and that will extend far further into the future than simply till their requirements are met. "

Can you prove this, because it seems to have the opposite effect in other countries.

"And if these people don't choose the military then so be it. If the military can't convince people to join without the use of force, then either there is something very wrong with the military that needs fixing...or it shows a lack of public support for the uses of the military by the political establishment (ie military action). Neither of the solutions to those problems require forced involuntary conscription, but either reforms to the military or political change. "

Finally we're in agreement on something.

"Your links in your op did not seem to reflect any of my concerns as I am not trying to call this slavery or neocon and since I am opposed to this on principle, I have no interests on how other countries have gone about doing this before so I saw no reason to click any of them. "

So you're not even going to read them, even if they address what you've mentioned. Gee, what a stunning means of furthering a dialogue. I really have nothing further to say on that, then.

Your principles seem hollow.

"That said, I now have read all but the last one and did not see anything covering my concern. Rather It seemed like they glossed over it. "

Okay? How so?

"That said, that you are still making respones to relies in this thread is amazing. Your passion for this issue is commendable. But I still strongly oppose your proposition."

Despite our disagreement, thanks