General Discussion

Chan790

(20,176 posts)

230. DU is often collectively-dumb.

Thu May 1, 2014, 06:35 PM

May 2014

I, for one, strongly support road-use and carbon taxes.

They shouldn't be earmarking the money to be spent on anything however...carbon, toll and road-use taxes are...like cigarette taxes...a disincentive tax. They exist to create a flat financial disincentive to negative behaviors to compel social change. This penalizes car use and driving as a means of pushing expansion of public mass transit among other social-goods.

But here we have an entire thread of people complaining about the exact fucking point of the taxes...no, we should not be doing other taxes instead of these. That's not to say we shouldn't raise capital-gains or marginal rates or luxury taxes. We're talking about two entirely different types and purposes of taxation that have nothing to do with each other; they should function independent of each other.

We should be doing these because these carry a social-correction aspect that forwards progressive agendas in a way that raising wealth-related taxes does not.

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This is surprising me: DU is against a tax on driving cars to pay for infrastructure? [View all] Recursion May 2014 OP

Raise the top marginal rate to 50% on incomes over 1 million bluestateguy May 2014 #1

+1 Beearewhyain May 2014 #10

+ another Zorra May 2014 #13

Please do. Recursion May 2014 #15

tax the ever living fuck out of lux cars, autos in addition to one per person Bluenorthwest May 2014 #128

Both taxes would be regressive bluestateguy May 2014 #200

Restore progresivity on high incomes period. JHB May 2014 #16

But that would be contrary to the laws of trickle down. Enthusiast May 2014 #64

Actually money does not follow the laws of gravity rock May 2014 #116

+1 and include capital gains, carried interest, IronLionZion May 2014 #90

Raising tax on capital gains is the more important and better one in my opinion. stevenleser May 2014 #142

#1. the two taxes aren't mutually exclusive. #2. Won't happen w/o clear Dem majority KittyWampus May 2014 #102

No shit!! Dawgs May 2014 #107

Where is this coming from? GOPee May 2014 #233

+++yep+++. Not one more poor or middle class person should have one Nay May 2014 #112

+1000 nt Mojorabbit May 2014 #227

Espoused liberals and conservatives both have the problem of... TreasonousBastard May 2014 #2

I see DU is being given its marching orders. djean111 May 2014 #3

You mean "yet another" tax, don't you? bluedigger May 2014 #4

Yes this. wickerwoman May 2014 #11

You do realize... gcomeau May 2014 #152

Yes, wickerwoman May 2014 #205

Definitely. And we have to realize we have cut that tax in half -- which is why the infrstructure BlueStreak May 2014 #253

I don't have a problem with opening door to tolls. But if Obama suggests it, Hoyt May 2014 #5

I saw one suggestion was to "raise the taxes on the 1%".. like the Dems wouldn't do Cha May 2014 #6

Damn right. We need big majorities in both houses. riqster May 2014 #106

Kick! Cha May 2014 #237

Tell me, what do you think will get that majority? Pushing to tax the 1%, or pushing Marr May 2014 #204

It's a double tax on everything but electric cars Warpy May 2014 #7

+1 This tax is a great way to guarantee we lose elections. Very regressive to boot. Scuba May 2014 #62

Hear, hear! Laelth May 2014 #71

Couldn't the same be said for some social issues? Renew Deal May 2014 #92

Yep. Spot on. Laelth May 2014 #93

I once heard someone say that you can't get anything done if you don't get elected Renew Deal May 2014 #117

I don't deny that. n/t Laelth May 2014 #121

This is NOT the right thing Warpy May 2014 #222

Yeah, it makes me wonder why they're pushing it in a midterm election year BuelahWitch May 2014 #223

+1 octoberlib May 2014 #140

Wrong... defacto7 May 2014 #8

Congress will never give up the funding Recursion May 2014 #35

It's a regressive tax Beearewhyain May 2014 #9

Yes, consumption taxes/VATs are regressive. That's the entire point Recursion May 2014 #44

thats not what regressive means Fred Drum May 2014 #47

Energy use is bottom-heavy so a tax on it is regressive Recursion May 2014 #49

And that's.... good? lumberjack_jeff May 2014 #131

Well, if it's a *carbon* tax, yes Recursion May 2014 #132

Yes, it's regressive. I don't understand why some truth2power May 2014 #50

ignorance about tax policy serves neo-liberals agenda bobduca May 2014 #175

I would like to see those explanations as well Beearewhyain May 2014 #209

Yes, and yet if we dont stop using carbon based products we all gonna die randys1 May 2014 #226

comparison Fred Drum May 2014 #12

Welcome to DU! Recursion May 2014 #48

Thanks for the welcome Fred Drum May 2014 #55

So, my friend who works for NYC had a saying Recursion May 2014 #56

by your logic Fred Drum May 2014 #60

It is a "Democratic" site. There are a great many Lieberman, Baucus Conservative Democrats here Dragonfli May 2014 #109

It is very mixed etherealtruth May 2014 #192

Oregon has no sales tax, because it is regressive and we have more Bluenorthwest May 2014 #130

oregon is much smaller than new york JI7 May 2014 #255

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. Scuba May 2014 #63

Because that money will be squandered on other shit Politicalboi May 2014 #14

What tax is *not* subject to the critique? Recursion May 2014 #18

The problem is that it's too close to privitizing roads. joshcryer May 2014 #17

At the risk of being called crazy, public funding for private provisioning is how we do Medicare Recursion May 2014 #19

Contractors already repair the roads. joshcryer May 2014 #23

States won't want to add workers. Lars39 May 2014 #100

Right, that's why every single state who takes tolls contracts it out Recursion May 2014 #101

Consequences of privatization...no pensions, lower pay. Lars39 May 2014 #105

It's not a carbon tax if you drive a non carbon vehicle. Jesus Malverde May 2014 #20

OK, imagine an exemption for electric cars. Do you support it now? Recursion May 2014 #21

And Medicare is broken and inefficient pipoman May 2014 #69

OK, I didn't think I would see ICD10 dragged up on DU, but, OK Recursion May 2014 #70

As i said, it is what we have, pipoman May 2014 #72

There already is a tax with an exemption for electric cars, the gas tax. Use it. JVS May 2014 #242

Why Don't We Just Let Chris Christe Be In Charge Of This....(sarcasm) global1 May 2014 #22

last time I looked IVe been paying gas tax for infrastructure for quite a few years/miles nt msongs May 2014 #24

Obvious issues... Demo_Chris May 2014 #25

Understood. So since Dean's 2004 platform included a carbon tax, I assume you're glad he lost? Recursion May 2014 #26

I thought we were discussing toll roads, an economically and emvironmentally inefficient... Demo_Chris May 2014 #29

Yes; that's the simplest carbon tax there is Recursion May 2014 #30

Simplest would be to tax fuel or emissions. This is not a carbon tax, it's a highway tax. nt Demo_Chris May 2014 #33

Name one practical difference Recursion May 2014 #34

At a toll booth a supercharged jacked up F350 pays the same rate as a Prius... Demo_Chris May 2014 #38

OK, so do an exemption for electrics and hybrids like DC does. Recursion May 2014 #40

Nope, it stll ignores vehicle efficiency and it is still regressive... Demo_Chris May 2014 #43

Help me out. You're complaining that this is regressive, and supporting a gas tax? Recursion May 2014 #45

They are equally regressive, and I support neither. nt Demo_Chris May 2014 #75

A small car uses less than a large car muriel_volestrangler May 2014 #80

No kidding. My GPS has me avoiding toll roads- I use *more* gas because of tolls. X_Digger May 2014 #114

You don't have to brake and reaccelerate at *some* tolls anymore just FYI. Agschmid May 2014 #259

That's really unfair. Shame on you. Scuba May 2014 #65

Clearly not, otherwise we would have disintegrated 13 years ago Recursion May 2014 #66

It's regressive as hell and will cost our side elections. Lousy idea. Scuba May 2014 #68

. dionysus May 2014 #247

Why not a tax on INCOME to pay for infrastructure? MADem May 2014 #27

You're saying a flat income tax would be *less* regressive than a consumption tax? Recursion May 2014 #28

I am talking quite specifically about a progressive tax. MADem May 2014 #31

No, you described verbatim a flat tax: 25% on all income Recursion May 2014 #32

No, that's not what I said at all. Not even close. MADem May 2014 #51

Sorry, I didn't see the decimal point Recursion May 2014 #53

Well, in my scenario there can be adjustments made to the tax on income, but the MADem May 2014 #57

A lot of rich don't have an income yeoman6987 May 2014 #76

They need to consider that money as income, IMO. MADem May 2014 #185

I'm with ya yeoman6987 May 2014 #211

I'm even willing to exempt a generous amount, so people can have a secure retirement. MADem May 2014 #225

I have a military retirement too yeoman6987 May 2014 #238

Yes, a flat income tax would be *less* regressive than a consumption tax muriel_volestrangler May 2014 #84

So, Herman Cain was right? Recursion May 2014 #85

It's possible he was right about something muriel_volestrangler May 2014 #86

Federal gas tax has been 18 CENTS for 20 YEARS! Outrageous! ErikJ May 2014 #36

I live in the Northeast, and toll states have horrible roads. NutmegYankee May 2014 #37

Mass has terrible roads? Recursion May 2014 #39

Have you driven any lately, or you a Golden Quadrilateral guy? NutmegYankee May 2014 #46

The roads get beat to death but there has been a lot of road work happening in the Obama era. MADem May 2014 #52

The worst stretches of interestate I have ever driven are in places that have Bluenorthwest May 2014 #134

Where? I'd drive in MA and NY over MS and AL any day Recursion May 2014 #136

Oklahoma was what I had in mind, tolls and when I went through miles of highway marked 'work zone' Bluenorthwest May 2014 #229

don't know where you were driving in NY but the I-90 through NY\MA has loads of rest stops. dionysus May 2014 #248

128/95 is terrible... Agschmid May 2014 #260

It is a regressive tax etherealtruth May 2014 #41

So is any carbon tax or VAT Recursion May 2014 #42

You really believe that the city of Detroit will feel pressured to provide reliable public transport etherealtruth May 2014 #54

Bend over, everybody, cuz you're about to get royally f/cked. And there's no money for lube, either. blkmusclmachine May 2014 #58

If the middle class and poor pay more taxes Turbineguy May 2014 #59

fuck gore fuck dean fuck warren bowens43 May 2014 #61

the OP's claims about those people are unsubstantiated Enrique May 2014 #67

Thank you. That is a typical rw tactic here. nt RandiFan1290 May 2014 #77

Yep. OP falsely asserted an equivalence between a carbon tax and a toll. JVS May 2014 #89

Implied Al Gore supports toll roads. Howard Dean supports toll roads Ichingcarpenter May 2014 #96

Not to mention alll the carbon coming out of the tailpipes BuelahWitch May 2014 #183

"The 1% need to be taxed until there is no 1%" jberryhill May 2014 #256

I don't like it dreamnightwind May 2014 #73

Why bother PAYING for toll infrastructure when a gas tax does the same thing? Pholus May 2014 #74

Think about who is hurt the most in a pay to use tax liberal N proud May 2014 #78

Ah. And a carbon tax is different... how? Please, tell me. Recursion May 2014 #79

Let me counter that: Why do you support a double tax on people who can least afford it? liberal N proud May 2014 #81

Taxes on companies are paid by their customers, if you don't have price controls Recursion May 2014 #82

No it's not! liberal N proud May 2014 #87

And if you don't, your lifestyle is not sustainable Recursion May 2014 #95

America is not laid out to support your fantasy liberal N proud May 2014 #143

The fantasy is that people can continue commuting from one suburb to another without paying Recursion May 2014 #145

What about the 99% of America that isn't urban or suburban areas? liberal N proud May 2014 #150

They need to get over the 1950s fully-detached dwelling dream. It won't work. Recursion May 2014 #151

I am guessing you live in a city and never lived elsewhere? liberal N proud May 2014 #178

I grew up in a town of 5000 Recursion May 2014 #179

Your choice - most of those living in areas without mass transit liberal N proud May 2014 #181

Speaking of detachment 4Q2u2 May 2014 #199

You are ridiculous n/t kcr May 2014 #194

Okay, this explains your position, for those who are scratching their heads. X_Digger May 2014 #115

Why should we support a carbon tax? Every carbon tax scheme I've seen is just a way for the... JVS May 2014 #83

I don't think it's a fair tax since everyone - whether they drive a car on the road or not - Vinca May 2014 #88

What do you think the gas taxes are about? WhiteTara May 2014 #91

I have no problem with paying the tax, I do have a problem with toll booths Bjorn Against May 2014 #94

And then there is this theory newblewtoo May 2014 #97

Yep. Major Moves. Brigid May 2014 #161

Road tolls are an EXTREMELY REGRESSIVE carbon tax Schema Thing May 2014 #98

What's a non-regressive carbon tax, Schema? Recursion May 2014 #99

The problem is that such a tax is regressive. Adrahil May 2014 #103

I will not be tracked like some kind of lab hamster. Period. nationalize the fed May 2014 #104

It's a regressive tax. Hugin May 2014 #108

Carbon taxes and VAT are terrible ideas LittleBlue May 2014 #110

Yeah, what the hell does Gore know about the environment. (nt) Nye Bevan May 2014 #124

Doesn't change the fact that this is a regressive tax LittleBlue May 2014 #127

Al Gore has supported toll roads and VAT? Prove it. The OP uses a dishonest Bluenorthwest May 2014 #138

It's amazing how they just make stuff up. nt bananas May 2014 #240

Illinois has had some toll roads forever. greatauntoftriplets May 2014 #111

I was in Illinois on the roads a few years ago, my Democratic Aunt gave me Bluenorthwest May 2014 #139

I drove to and from Rockford (from Detroit) etherealtruth May 2014 #177

I just think it's politically tone deaf at this point in time. octoberlib May 2014 #113

Tolls don't really impede traffic flow FarCenter May 2014 #118

People are not thinking it through Kelvin Mace May 2014 #119

Imagine that. nt raccoon May 2014 #125

Sorry but I don't think it is a good idea to toll those roads. hrmjustin May 2014 #120

I paid taxes all my life to build the highways randr May 2014 #122

Smart tolls, paid electronically, variable according to time and day, is the way to go. Nye Bevan May 2014 #123

Because gentrification, many of the poorest have to commute the farthest to go to work... JCMach1 May 2014 #148

Agreed on this point Xyzse May 2014 #193

Precisely... JCMach1 May 2014 #210

I think that this was suggested simply to give states the right to fix their highways. We all know jwirr May 2014 #126

It is a regressive tax, Ms. Toad May 2014 #129

Regressive taxes suck ass. It is surprising to me that anyone here would support them. lumberjack_jeff May 2014 #133

I thought that was what taxes on gasoline was supposed to be for. Throd May 2014 #135

Except they don't even meet current operational needs, let alone capital improvement Recursion May 2014 #137

Can you support your assertion that Gore, Dean and Warren favor toll roads? Bluenorthwest May 2014 #141

I will assume that assertion was a raft of bullshit floated on a river of agenda. Bluenorthwest May 2014 #144

Sure, that's it Recursion May 2014 #147

How about their positions on toll roads? Fumesucker May 2014 #180

why don't you find their position on the designated hitter? frylock May 2014 #221

No, their position on toll roads, which you claim they support, which are a form of highway tax Bluenorthwest May 2014 #231

How about a REAL excess profits tax on Oil Companies? JCMach1 May 2014 #146

Agree, and there are always free alternatives to get from point a cbayer May 2014 #149

Same error as in the other thread. FBaggins May 2014 #153

Some of the concerns are based around the tolls themselves, ZombieHorde May 2014 #154

That would be good too. Why not all three? Recursion May 2014 #155

To be perfectly honest, I don't know a lot about tolls. ZombieHorde May 2014 #164

The first two are real good ideas... if..... whistler162 May 2014 #207

The FDL-ers are saying it is taking our FREEDOM AWAY! scheming daemons May 2014 #156

Aren't my taxes supposed to be paying for road repairs? Vashta Nerada May 2014 #157

And 50 years ago those gas taxes met our needs Recursion May 2014 #158

Still doesn't answer my question. Vashta Nerada May 2014 #159

It is being used for road repair but it's not enough Recursion May 2014 #160

The gas tax hasn't been raised since 1992 taught_me_patience May 2014 #172

Good. Vashta Nerada May 2014 #174

ummm... the federal gax tax is already 18 cents. taught_me_patience May 2014 #176

The rich say no capital gains because they already paid... Atman May 2014 #162

No. Our parents paid to build them. Recursion May 2014 #165

Why should I accept 14% tax rates on capital gains.... Atman May 2014 #169

Who says you should? I don't. Recursion May 2014 #173

It is a regressive tax though. Shoulders of Giants May 2014 #163

It's a regressive tax to help subsidize continued low taxes on the rich. eShirl May 2014 #166

I already pay a tax on my car in CT bigwillq May 2014 #167

Just barely keeping the bridges from collapsing Recursion May 2014 #170

Find out where the tolls are going first... Historic NY May 2014 #168

Spin spin spin. NCTraveler May 2014 #171

How would you maintain roads with all electric cars? MicaelS May 2014 #182

Charge a tax on electricity usage. Duh. The Second Stone May 2014 #188

Add the tax to the electric bill! MADem May 2014 #189

There is a correlation currently between tire usage, gas consumption, and road wear. JVS May 2014 #243

That is what a gas tax is The Second Stone May 2014 #184

That's even more regressive than this Recursion May 2014 #190

How is that worse? The Second Stone May 2014 #232

It's OK by me. As long as it's a progressive tax. More for the rich, less for the poor. Tierra_y_Libertad May 2014 #186

This is a terrible idea. dawg May 2014 #187

Drivers are generally following the jobs. Orsino May 2014 #191

+1 n/t lumberjack_jeff May 2014 #212

We already pay those taxes for roads and infrastructure.. 2banon May 2014 #195

Well, in my state MissMillie May 2014 #196

I'm taking about road tolls Recursion May 2014 #197

The idea sounds good but I see a lot of problems gollygee May 2014 #198

It's a regressive tax. Try taxing the rich instead. aquart May 2014 #201

I'm not sure if it's less regressive to pay more in fuel taxes or to pay a toll. herding cats May 2014 #202

two reasons for more tolls: fee income and more surveillance ReasonableToo May 2014 #203

Please... many here in this thread think only billionaires should pay more taxes taught_me_patience May 2014 #206

... either that or they oppose the most regressive of taxes etherealtruth May 2014 #239

I don't; I am against a government tax checkpoint on the highway. krispos42 May 2014 #208

I would be ok with it if taxes on the rich were high enough. Notafraidtoo May 2014 #213

What a ridiculous OP. Self-parody of the "third way". nt Romulox May 2014 #214

Third-way Manny doesn't even need to post anymore. JVS May 2014 #220

Tolls are not a carbon tax, period. Sissyk May 2014 #215

Recursion, you're a sweet guy. But no. Starry Messenger May 2014 #216

In Germany we're having these taxes. OldEurope May 2014 #217

If it were guaranteed that private contractors would not set rates, I'd have little problems with it LanternWaste May 2014 #218

I don't really have a problem with it. . . . BigDemVoter May 2014 #219

There are better ways to do it Motown_Johnny May 2014 #224

All of your conflations ... Trajan May 2014 #228

DU is often collectively-dumb. Chan790 May 2014 #230

In MO there's talk of a mileage tax bcool May 2014 #234

Only because you keep willfully mischaracterizing their arguments. JoeyT May 2014 #235

Do you support raising the gas tax, then? taught_me_patience May 2014 #249

Poor people aren't driving the gas guzzlers. JoeyT May 2014 #250

I can't drive, so Jamaal510 May 2014 #236

Can't find anything in here about a Carbon tax AnalystInParadise May 2014 #241

yes Puzzledtraveller May 2014 #244

Then what? Tax the hell out of meat to pay for health care? flvegan May 2014 #245

not only that, i also read toll booths will be "gummint checkpoints"... what's next, DUers railing dionysus May 2014 #246

The problem with tolls creeksneakers2 May 2014 #251

and they're NECESSARY! elleng May 2014 #252

Taxed on the money Go Vols May 2014 #254

If you can make it progressive, give those with low incomes free toll passes, I'd think about it Hippo_Tron May 2014 #257

Yah these threads are off the wall... I feel like I'm reading infowars or something. Agschmid May 2014 #258

No surprise, really Bobbie Jo May 2014 #261