General Discussion

BainsBane

(57,762 posts)

79. Sadly, that is how DU works

Wed May 14, 2014, 10:48 AM

May 2014

I hate it as well. A person posts a thread on an issue, or even mentions it within a single post. Then tons of threads pop up saying how awful the person was to raise that issue. Then more threads pop up about how that second group didn't understand the issue. Then more threads pop up about how people who don't agree with whoever are idiots, racists, fascists, authoritarian, whatever.

Look at Glen Greenwald. Why do we have to have hundreds of threads on that one guy? This place operates in cycles.

The only time Democrats don't argue is when they are united around a shared enemy, like Bush. People can't even agree on loose support for the President. People who defend Obama are now called authoritarians and shills. This is one of many issues.

You can always use trash by keyword.

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It's getting weird here....white privilege....rape threads a month ago....it seems a bit much [View all] Demonaut May 2014 OP

From people who don't want DU to be successful and want to get the Democrats fighting one okaawhatever May 2014 #1

Agree FuzzyRabbit May 2014 #4

That... Or people are just as blind and focused on race and gender Mr_Harshaw May 2014 #34

There are no impersonal gender terms in the English language, unlike in eg. latin languages Ghost Dog May 2014 #121

It shouldn't even be necessary....ALL Liberals should agree that White male privilege exists... VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #251

So engaging the CORE of the Democratic base is sowing dvision? Number23 May 2014 #14

+1 nomorenomore08 May 2014 #18

Certain posters here REALLY hate having these subjects discussed. redqueen May 2014 #52

I gave up on dealing with any of these subjects here nadinbrzezinski May 2014 #85

Agree, same here. You have the usual Katashi_itto May 2014 #341

Certain posters got lost on the way to Libertarian Underground. nt msanthrope May 2014 #137

+++1000 VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #252

Outstanding! Sheldon Cooper May 2014 #145

This message was self-deleted by its author Sheldon Cooper May 2014 #145

100% agreed. BlueCaliDem May 2014 #222

Exactly. Generalized attacks meant applegrove May 2014 #2

I try to avoid most of them... penultimate May 2014 #3

I avoid most of them, too, and for the same reason. winter is coming May 2014 #11

Same here. It's always the same cast with the same script... Violet_Crumble May 2014 #21

Dogs Doing Cute Things Underground is yet to be built VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #253

From people who think women's and minority issues are worthy of discussion in a liberal forum? Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #5

pitting one group against another is a "worthy discussion"..well said... Demonaut May 2014 #7

It only "pits one group against another" because people are annoyed at having their complacency nomorenomore08 May 2014 #15

They need to feel better about themselves whistler162 May 2014 #49

I don't think discussions regarding equality and civil rights = "pitting one group against another" LanternWaste May 2014 #86

I'm not white..you've made my point..thanks! Demonaut May 2014 #118

HAH! Exactly . . . Damansarajaya May 2014 #168

Yes we can. bravenak May 2014 #185

Are you AA? bravenak May 2014 #176

Thank you for demonstrating the point of this thread! CANDO May 2014 #165

You say this while going on the attack. bravenak May 2014 #184

How many people (real posters, not trolls) don't think such subjects should be discussed though? penultimate May 2014 #8

To judge from whingeing OPs like this one? A lot. Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #9

The problem I've noticed is those always devolve into a pure useless petty argument. penultimate May 2014 #12

Part of the problem is how people create false equivalencies, even if perhaps not consciously so nomorenomore08 May 2014 #16

That's not it at all and you are incapable of upaloopa May 2014 #30

An honest discussion of privilege can be edifying. Yet another daily lecture from ... 11 Bravo May 2014 #37

Much as the daily denials of privilege from the "smug, pedantic, self-styled, desperately trendy att LanternWaste May 2014 #87

'Six of one, half a dozen of the other' portrays the two views as equally valid. redqueen May 2014 #97

In my view, anyone who denies the existence of privilege is far too unserious ... 11 Bravo May 2014 #219

The words you choose (smug, pedantic, haranguing, etc) and which side you aim them at are revealing. redqueen May 2014 #259

I made sure to select words which are undeniably non-gender specific. 11 Bravo May 2014 #263

Your not using bigoted insults is beside the point. It's nice and all, but beside the point. nt redqueen May 2014 #266

I'm thrilled that you approve of my verbiage. 11 Bravo May 2014 #274

And many others are not big believers in participation trophies. boston bean May 2014 #279

Ahh, so I've issued a demand. (Ain't that just like a white dude? Pushy bastards, the lot of them!) 11 Bravo May 2014 #315

It's all how you see it, heh. boston bean May 2014 #317

Now you're not even trying. Did you really just accuse me of "seeing something ... 11 Bravo May 2014 #321

Here again...perfect example. CANDO May 2014 #182

You always seem angry when discussing this issue. bravenak May 2014 #186

I've noticed that too. Squinch May 2014 #246

a suggestion is to stop using the word 'white' for a year and see what happens. Sunlei May 2014 #328

Shocking, indeed! Well said. scarletwoman May 2014 #10

Post removed Post removed May 2014 #17

Wouldn't it be great if these threads were actually teaching tools? CANDO May 2014 #207

Wrong. There are so many teaching posts in so many threads. redqueen May 2014 #210

And you provided none. CANDO May 2014 #215

And you expected them to be provided to you. redqueen May 2014 #216

You know the saying.. CANDO May 2014 #237

LOL! redqueen May 2014 #239

I know another saying: scarletwoman May 2014 #275

Post removed Post removed May 2014 #286

I did not tell you to go away, I only suggested that if you're looking for "teaching tools", they're scarletwoman May 2014 #288

Good news, CANDO can't do DU now... alp227 May 2014 #305

Nice one. Jamaal510 May 2014 #308

Praise the Lord. But after he told a black poster here to "get a job" when she dared to talk about Number23 May 2014 #309

Wow. I didn't see that one. pintobean May 2014 #313

He needs to be shit-canned immediately. Sheldon Cooper May 2014 #316

where did that happen? nt alp227 May 2014 #324

The poster in question talks about it here and specifically talks about hurt she was Number23 May 2014 #334

Thank you. It's sad to me that he was so angry, it was not my intent to bait him. scarletwoman May 2014 #312

And "Can't Do" is spending most of the summer in DU Jail alp227 May 2014 #333

Well said. nt redqueen May 2014 #42

+1 n/t Gormy Cuss May 2014 #194

They will go away eventually quinnox May 2014 #6

I once knew a guy who had problems with meth... Comrade Grumpy May 2014 #13

People love to argue. (nt) Inkfreak May 2014 #19

No, they don't. kwassa May 2014 #112

Yes they do. FiveGoodMen May 2014 #171

Not necessarily. kwassa May 2014 #177

I'm sorry, but if you want to continue arguing you'll have to pay for another five minutes. FiveGoodMen May 2014 #181

But that was never five minutes just now! Oh Come on! kwassa May 2014 #200

"This is ridiculous. I've had enough." Damansarajaya May 2014 #236

Imagine if Jamaal510 May 2014 #310

This message was self-deleted by its author Inkfreak May 2014 #276

People of color and women gollygee May 2014 #20

These Whites refuse to understand that SaltyBro May 2014 #22

"These whites" AgingAmerican May 2014 #189

Well i've been hearing about those black hoodlums all my life. bravenak May 2014 #191

White males catch feelings when they are called out SaltyBro May 2014 #193

I know. bravenak May 2014 #195

"They" must be trounced!` AgingAmerican May 2014 #197

Who are you trying to trounce today? bravenak May 2014 #201

Left hook! AgingAmerican May 2014 #203

You feel beat down?? bravenak May 2014 #209

Yes AgingAmerican May 2014 #196

They need to realize that they don't have it bad compared to everyone else. bravenak May 2014 #198

"THEY" just don't get it! AgingAmerican May 2014 #202

Yes, apparently they do. bravenak May 2014 #214

So you are teaching "They" a lesson! AgingAmerican May 2014 #220

They need it. bravenak May 2014 #225

ALL racism sucks AgingAmerican May 2014 #199

Only whites can be racist though SaltyBro May 2014 #204

Right AgingAmerican May 2014 #205

Yes it does. bravenak May 2014 #208

Oh not that shit MattBaggins May 2014 #229

Interesting assumptions on the OP and posters whistler162 May 2014 #51

+1000000 n/t Jamastiene May 2014 #117

I don't think so. Links? nt ecstatic May 2014 #244

Exactly! Squinch May 2014 #248

Issues where there is a lot of disagreement tend to get a lot of posts. Vattel May 2014 #23

Honestly, I think a good chunk of it is probably just people getting frustrated at society, or life. AverageJoe90 May 2014 #24

TBH, really, TBH, TBH (to be honest) boston bean May 2014 #26

TBH. bravenak May 2014 #151

Am I reading this right, bravenak? sheshe2 May 2014 #281

Yes. bravenak May 2014 #282

I am so very sorry, bravenak. sheshe2 May 2014 #284

It happens sometimes. bravenak May 2014 #289

You are partly off base, yes. No offense. AverageJoe90 May 2014 #336

So the minorities who post on DU are just trolls? Starry Messenger May 2014 #25

Seems like that's the point they're making, doesn't it? Squinch May 2014 #249

white male bashing Niceguy1 May 2014 #27

Well-meaning DUers who sincerely want to end racism and sexism. Nye Bevan May 2014 #28

DING DING DING DING!!! WE'VE GOT A WINNER!!! CANDO May 2014 #231

When ever I see one of those OPs I put the poster upaloopa May 2014 #29

+1000 Katashi_itto May 2014 #31

how would you feel if people painted you that way for having disgust at that thread on bettyellen May 2014 #339

The certain types would paint me that way if it suited their spin as it stands as it is anyway, Katashi_itto May 2014 #340

And that's what happens to many who object to bigotry here. bettyellen May 2014 #342

Agree! Katashi_itto May 2014 #343

You're a credit to your race Capt. Obvious May 2014 #32

Maybe the best policy is to ignore them. ananda May 2014 #33

Perhaps because issues of racism and sexism and rape culture are of import to many women myrna minx May 2014 #35

This message was self-deleted by its author Jesus Malverde May 2014 #36

I'm sure you mean well, but I think this post is in poor taste. myrna minx May 2014 #38

Yes, economy and class matter justiceischeap May 2014 #40

+1 for the argument that economics is paramount. Laelth May 2014 #43

Let's be clear on the economy frazzled May 2014 #45

This message was self-deleted by its author Jesus Malverde May 2014 #50

It's bizarre someone would ... frazzled May 2014 #69

Wow. Starry Messenger May 2014 #47

This message was self-deleted by its author Jesus Malverde May 2014 #48

The cratering economy has predominantly hit blacks, Latinos and women. Starry Messenger May 2014 #54

This message was self-deleted by its author Jesus Malverde May 2014 #56

That had nothing to do with what I said to you. Starry Messenger May 2014 #83

She's got a point nadinbrzezinski May 2014 #92

Generally the same people who anywhere else would clutsh their pearls at the notion of "class" Scootaloo May 2014 #161

I know, I've been meaning to start a satirical OP about it, but haven't had the ergs. Starry Messenger May 2014 #212

As if its white middle class men who are at fault, right? CANDO May 2014 #217

Check the voting demographics when you get a chance. Starry Messenger May 2014 #223

Raises hand. I know!!!!! bravenak May 2014 #226

And it's bravenak for the win! Starry Messenger May 2014 #230

Millionaires in waiting!!!! bravenak May 2014 #247

This message was self-deleted by its author Jesus Malverde May 2014 #258

What ARE you talking about?? bravenak May 2014 #264

LOL gollygee May 2014 #265

Yes. bravenak May 2014 #267

OK gotta read that one. gollygee May 2014 #268

Oh wait I already read that earlier gollygee May 2014 #269

Feel free to add crazy thing people say to you too. bravenak May 2014 #270

Wow, I missed the delete-a-thon! Starry Messenger May 2014 #302

Well it was a nice try, but i saved the one to me. bravenak May 2014 #332

Wow. nt redqueen May 2014 #271

Holy shit. Could have been cut and pasted straight from Free Republic, including the bad spelling. Number23 May 2014 #291

Let me clue you into a little secret.... CANDO May 2014 #235

Intellectual dishonesty will get you nowhere. Starry Messenger May 2014 #238

Intellectual dishonesty. CANDO May 2014 #257

Yeah and we would like to keep them and keep boston bean May 2014 #277

Here's a hug. Starry Messenger May 2014 #280

Why do you think that giving other people rights will take your rights away? Jamastiene May 2014 #293

I don't necessarily believe that... CANDO May 2014 #294

Then why did you say it in the previous post I replied to? n/t Jamastiene May 2014 #296

I was running with that theme in attempting to get... CANDO May 2014 #297

But, no one said you have to give up any of your rights. Jamastiene May 2014 #298

" Lately, "white privilege" is to DU what "Benghazi" is to R's"......you might be right, sadly. AverageJoe90 May 2014 #323

You're wrong. Minorities outvoted whites in 2012. Put together minorities and white women, and you Squinch May 2014 #254

Exactly. Those who think discussions on DU will make white men turn republican are entertaining. redqueen May 2014 #261

There are some here who have overtly stated that they won't vote Democratic because of Squinch May 2014 #278

A goodly portion of the carnage strewn on the shiny floor of capitalism are women and Skidmore May 2014 #81

*crickets* Starry Messenger May 2014 #102

Probably not best to imply issues important to minority communities are not only secondary NuclearDem May 2014 #95

I think personally, the agenda from sensible centrists nadinbrzezinski May 2014 #131

Guess which group is getting hurt the worst by the economy MattBaggins May 2014 #245

The middle class Jesus Malverde May 2014 #260

Wow, it is really weird huh? boston bean May 2014 #39

If white DUers conceded WP, would you believe them? Eleanors38 May 2014 #44

Why the hell are you asking me that? boston bean May 2014 #46

I was under the impression the admission of WP is Eleanors38 May 2014 #53

I called your comment ignorant, not you. boston bean May 2014 #57

That is what I find so demonstrably frustrating about Eleanors38 May 2014 #100

And who praytell are you sitting in judgment of? boston bean May 2014 #101

Hell, no one at all. Eleanors38 May 2014 #108

Ayup. boston bean May 2014 #109

Post removed Post removed May 2014 #211

White privilege is reality. NCTraveler May 2014 #107

You miss the point. WP, like the jargon of psychology, Eleanors38 May 2014 #113

I missed no point. Your question was very strange. nt. NCTraveler May 2014 #119

What a long, strange road it's been. Eleanors38 May 2014 #299

Concession is not enough. rrneck May 2014 #59

I suspect, if Boston's view is shared by others, WP will Eleanors38 May 2014 #104

Yep. It's become a pretty obvious cudgel. rrneck May 2014 #105

What is strange imo, is all the old user accounts suddenly becoming active again Rex May 2014 #138

Also strange is how many consistently active DUers agree with them. redqueen May 2014 #149

Interesting observation. I hadn't noticed the "Dawn of the Dead" quality of this. Squinch May 2014 #255

More speech is better than less speech. Laelth May 2014 #41

It certainly seemed coordinated. It's like there's a wedge-of-the-month club scheming daemons May 2014 #55

Is denial of white privilege a democratic position? boston bean May 2014 #58

You're missing the point, as usual scheming daemons May 2014 #61

I didn't realize acknowledging privilege was a wedge issue for democrats. boston bean May 2014 #62

You don't find it curious that..... scheming daemons May 2014 #66

What I find curious is you are blaming those who find the postings boston bean May 2014 #68

You and I likely agree on the subject of white privilege scheming daemons May 2014 #73

Who is driving this wedge? You and me who agree? boston bean May 2014 #74

Those who are bombarding the site with threads scheming daemons May 2014 #76

I look at this quite differently. boston bean May 2014 #80

What will be next month's wedge-of-the-month? scheming daemons May 2014 #88

Ah, I see now that you weren't really having an honest discussion with me. boston bean May 2014 #89

No... I was.... scheming daemons May 2014 #91

An email tip? LOL boston bean May 2014 #93

So you're actually labeling these as wedge issues redqueen May 2014 #127

They are if they are issues that divide a group of people who are obstensibly on the same side scheming daemons May 2014 #136

"the disruptors are using them" redqueen May 2014 #147

Why did you raise the issue now... and not before? scheming daemons May 2014 #152

Wow. OK. nt redqueen May 2014 #164

Conspiracy talk? Pretty funny coming from someone who was alerted to this grave problem Sheldon Cooper May 2014 #167

Where is this "Men's Rights group"? pintobean May 2014 #179

. JTFrog May 2014 #206

Well, isn't that just ducky. pintobean May 2014 #224

You are saying that like HoF has ever NOT talked about women's issues. ROFL! Jamastiene May 2014 #295

Yes we have. Because we are all powerful. And we are working quietly to take over the world. Squinch May 2014 #256

There have *literally* been many threads about white privilege in the past few months muriel_volestrangler May 2014 #122

Never even realized such a group existed until about 30 minutes ago. scheming daemons May 2014 #124

So the very first time you heard of them, you decided to accuse them of disrupting DU muriel_volestrangler May 2014 #130

I knew SOMEONE was disrupting DU..... but didn't know who scheming daemons May 2014 #133

No, you don't know that muriel_volestrangler May 2014 #139

he got an email tip. boston bean May 2014 #134

Yes, and those are always so reliable. Sheldon Cooper May 2014 #143

The divide already exists BainsBane May 2014 #65

Yes... and there is a coordinated effort to exploit the divide scheming daemons May 2014 #67

You think persons who make posting denying privilege boston bean May 2014 #71

No... I do not scheming daemons May 2014 #75

Well, lend your criticism to them. Because it is they who are on the wrong footing. boston bean May 2014 #77

Exactly, and coming from the same "people" Katashi_itto May 2014 #153

As usual. pintobean May 2014 #158

Yup Katashi_itto May 2014 #162

Let's review which issues "divide" Democrats BainsBane May 2014 #72

True.... but there is a coordinated effort about ONE particular issue this month.... scheming daemons May 2014 #90

Oddly enough, I haven't really noticed that effort. MineralMan May 2014 #99

Because it doesn't exist BainsBane May 2014 #110

Well said nt redqueen May 2014 #128

Not ironic, pretty predictable really if you look at who is posting what. Rex May 2014 #144

I remember when the GLBT community on DU was told we were a "wedge" issue. Jamastiene May 2014 #292

And you fancy yourself the adjudicator of the democratic position? CANDO May 2014 #233

I'm not wanting to take any of your privileges... D'oh boston bean May 2014 #234

This is why I've asked..... CANDO May 2014 #240

Excuse me but the first step is recognizing an issue not denying it. boston bean May 2014 #242

What we have here is people insisting I have a privilege, CANDO May 2014 #262

Which to you means that. However that is not the case. boston bean May 2014 #272

Bingo! CANDO May 2014 #287

You could always petiton Skinner BainsBane May 2014 #63

You're missing the point scheming daemons May 2014 #70

Sadly, that is how DU works BainsBane May 2014 #79

The reason they become hot topics is because people are now less willing redqueen May 2014 #82

Don't bother. The poster is getting email tips boston bean May 2014 #94

Just tell me what June's wedge-of-the-month issue will be, so I can get a head start scheming daemons May 2014 #96

You might want to ask those who actually spout things boston bean May 2014 #98

"race is a wedge issue" BainsBane May 2014 #114

yep. And it is those who disagree doing the wedging and dividing... boston bean May 2014 #115

Authoritarian much? CANDO May 2014 #227

You're too much. Accuse me of trying to make you agree boston bean May 2014 #250

Right handed heterosexual white male privileged! whistler162 May 2014 #140

You have been on DU since 2003, I have since 2001 - was there some time period that you can recall seaglass May 2014 #141

I have no problem with either subject matter scheming daemons May 2014 #156

Again: racism and sexism affect PoC and women EVERY DAY. redqueen May 2014 #166

That little email cabal is planned, PLANNED, I say!! Sheldon Cooper May 2014 #169

LOL! redqueen May 2014 #170

Scheming - You seem to be making a lot of accusations about the origins of discussions on seaglass May 2014 #174

That's totally unfair: Damansarajaya May 2014 #172

That's kind of what happens when you let the riff raff vote BainsBane May 2014 #60

It's just partisan passion minus the intellectual integrity with a big dollop of consumerism. rrneck May 2014 #64

Apparently, people need need to discuss those issues. dawg May 2014 #78

Its weird that there is push-back against a desire for better equality bhikkhu May 2014 #84

If you think regular discussion of white privilege and rape...... NCTraveler May 2014 #103

It hasn't been "regular" discussion scheming daemons May 2014 #123

Anyone who has been at this board for any length of time understands it is not weird. NCTraveler May 2014 #125

I ignore all of them. They are not discussions, they always seem to be battles. OregonBlue May 2014 #106

Crap? ismnotwasm May 2014 #111

Translation BainsBane May 2014 #116

What you have deemed as "crap" are issues that people of color and women Jamastiene May 2014 #120

From a select few passive agressive members with serious axe to grind. CANDO May 2014 #126

Why not just ignore them? nt redqueen May 2014 #129

you were flagged for review for good reason. boston bean May 2014 #132

Isn't that always the case? pintobean May 2014 #148

But, of course!!!!!! opiate69 May 2014 #183

Uh-oh pintobean May 2014 #187

Ah, good times Capt. Obvious May 2014 #213

You got flagged for review because you could not control your own self, Sheldon Cooper May 2014 #142

You should check your personal attacks at the door. You were hidden for good reason. PeaceNikki May 2014 #154

I felt that way too already, but then Damansarajaya May 2014 #173

Welcome to DU. redqueen May 2014 #180

on ignore . . . nt Damansarajaya May 2014 #228

Ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bravenak May 2014 #188

The really strange thing imo, is watching all these old DU accounts suddenly becoming Rex May 2014 #135

No, no.... it is completely organic discussion on DU! No coordinated effort at all! scheming daemons May 2014 #157

Just another day on DU. Rex May 2014 #160

The conspiracy theories are amusing gollygee May 2014 #285

quite a sleuth you are Rex, found me out...please pay more attention to "posts in last 90 days" Demonaut May 2014 #175

Who said I was talking about you!? Rex May 2014 #320

ok, I see what you mean...I thought it was directed at me Demonaut May 2014 #338

personally I think it is time for a good ol porn thread nt arely staircase May 2014 #150

I don't see women onecaliberal May 2014 #155

Thank you. LeftOfWest May 2014 #192

It IS most definitely the point. onecaliberal May 2014 #232

And they really aren't! Though, to be honest..... AverageJoe90 May 2014 #322

But those who say we should be quiet would have onecaliberal May 2014 #326

Some folks just miss Meta. Sissyk May 2014 #159

more false equivalencies. boston bean May 2014 #178

So either we ignore our differences or we dont, we lockstep or we dont... randys1 May 2014 #163

Post removed Post removed May 2014 #190

You realize "Progressives Today" is an anti-progressive YouTube channel right? alp227 May 2014 #307

the weirdness is the tone deafness RainDog May 2014 #218

If these whites can,t handle the heat SaltyBro May 2014 #221

DU picks up a new Theme every few weeks - then discusses it to death Liberal_in_LA May 2014 #241

Distraction trolling? It IS weird and mostly disingenuous ecstatic May 2014 #243

I find it sad BainsBane May 2014 #273

Growing weary of being harangued about white privilege... Comrade Grumpy May 2014 #300

Yes, it does BainsBane May 2014 #301

I get the argument; I just don't see much useful in insisting that the issue of racism... Comrade Grumpy May 2014 #303

I no longer care BainsBane May 2014 #304

I admit I haven't read every post on this thread. Was someone making racist comments? Comrade Grumpy May 2014 #311

"I really don't think DU tolerates racists." We don't. Pure and simple. AverageJoe90 May 2014 #325

You must've missed the thread on "Asian privilege" Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #329

I didn't like that thread, either. AverageJoe90 May 2014 #330

Sure it does. Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #331

We spin the Wheel of Outrage every week or so. -nt Liberal Veteran May 2014 #283

Ignore and trash thread are your friends. nt mn9driver May 2014 #290

That's where the "trash thread/keyword" functions come in handy. Jamaal510 May 2014 #306

The SoP is not enforced. Full stop. morningfog May 2014 #314

oh i don't know i find these contentious debates interesting! m-lekktor May 2014 #318

I think we have a bit of the old divide and conquer game going on here. Get something that DUers jwirr May 2014 #319

a lot of groups, political, corps use paid media to spread their 'points'. That means plenty of hire Sunlei May 2014 #327

I dunno... Lunacee_2013 May 2014 #335

It's emanating from Olive Garden. eom TransitJohn May 2014 #337

Well, it's still weird in the world. Women keep getting raped, minorities keep getting screwed, JTFrog May 2014 #344